Video & Frames?

[Eric Wikman]

I've discovered that the Video I'd been given is 23.98 Frames... and I had been working with the Project set to 29.97. How will/would this effect my outcome/final music.. and should I change it in the middle of working?

I haven't noticed anything, but then I've just barely started dealing with frames and such.

There is a checkbox in Prefs/Proj setting to Auto Detect MTC, which seems to relate to the Video settings, but is this only for external syncing or does all Video have MTC embedded?

Thanks again!

[fader8]

Hey Deep,

This is really a display function. If you've been composing to the picture itself, it shouldn't be a problem. But if the director said they want a specific sonic event to occur at a specific timecode location, then it can be an issue, ie now you've spotted it incorrectly because your framerate didn't agree with everyone else's.

 

If the vid editor did their job well, you would have received a clip with BITC and you would have noticed that the timecode wouldn't have matched what Logic was displaying.

[Eric Wikman]

Hey Mod8,

Thanks for the help again.

Yes, They the vid does have BITC, and it shows 24 FPS.

And I have spotted a few "happenings" to certain frames per the Director.

So, should I change my system to to match the 23.976, and then re-check those frame locked sounds, and re-adjust?

I think that's what you're saying here.

Most of my job is music though, but I did create to match action at many scene cuts.

Hope this doesn't mess it up too much. I'm almost done.

[ski]

Hate to disagree with Señor Ocho, but changing your frame rate after you've recorded music (and especially automation) can really screw things up for you.

 

Here's a screenshot of some audio placed in a 30 fps session. Note that the top two regions are SMPTE-locked, and the bottom two are simply (unlocked) copies of the same:

http://www.score2picture.com/logicpix/30fps.jpg

Here's what happens to the placement of the audio after I changed the frame rate to 25 fps:

 

http://www.score2picture.com/logicpix/25fps.jpg

 

[ note: after re-reading this the information in this paragraph is incorrect ]

My feeling is that you need to lock all regions before you make the change of frame rate [edit: wrong -- regions do not need to be locked, see below] . And gawd only knows what it will do to your automation (if you've recorded any --- chances are that it will probably screw it up unless you move it to region-based automation, lock that, and then change your frame rate).

 

[ note: the rest of this is fine ]

Always, always, always check the frame rate of picture first by opening the movie in QT and hitting CMD-I to view this info. Then set Logic accordingly. This procedure also lets you double-check that the file that the video editor made is at the right frame rate. They can screw up (and often do) and, even though they're working at, say, 23.976 they send you a 29.97 file. It happens. And if that does happen, they need to make you a new copy at the correct frame rate. Otherwise it screws up sync for everyone.

Edited July 28, 2010 by ski

[ski]

I just read your follow-up post (looks like we cross-posted here). I never trust video editors because I've seen too many screwups. You said that your BITC was 24, but chances are it's either 23.976, or, they screwed up and made you an actual 24 fps copy (which is definitely not the same as 23.976).

 

That's why I stress always checking the file before you start work. IOW, you have to double-check the editor's work before you can start work. My procedure is to always have a conversation with the editor and have them tell me what the frame rate of their FCP or Avid session is. Then I match what they told me to the actual FPS of the work print they send (QT file). If it doesn't match, I get right on the phone with them and have them make a corrected copy.

 

Same thing can happen with BITC --- they can send you a QT file at the proper frame rate but with a timecode burn at the wrong frame rate! Yes, it's possible to do that. So always double-check their work before you start yours.

 

Just some friendly advice from...

 

-=sKi=-

Edited July 28, 2010 by ski

[fader8]

Hate to disagree with Señor Ocho, but changing your frame rate after you've recorded music (and especially automation) can really screw things up for you.

We're not disagreeing actually. I wasn't suggesting he change the rate, just that he'd be OK if he was composing strictly to visual cue and not timecode location.

 

To add to the variable list, if the BITC is wrong on the clip, was the director referencing the same wrong BITC . . .? Oh what a wicked web we weave . . .

 

The point, Deep, is that it only takes one joker to screw up one little thing and it can throw everybody out of whack. ski's point about checking absolutely everything first is very valid.

[Eric Wikman]

Yea, I did check in QT pro yesterday, when this all became apparent to me, and it says 23.98 (23.976).

I just said 24, because that's what the BITC looks like to me... it has 24 frames before turning over. Not sure how that one is "measured"... yet.

 

I'm kind of sub-contracting 11 minutes of club scenes etc.. thru a friend of mine who is doing most of the picture. ( he does not do Authentic House :0)

 

I've learned a lot in the past week about this stuff.. and like it a lot!

 

BUT.. my friend said.. just open the movie and go to work. ha!

 

I will always always always check from now on... like I already do when working on the stuff I already know! yea right.

thanks again.

[Eric Wikman]

Well, I saved as a new project for the 2 sep Project segments. Then I locked all regions (BTW, does this include midi regions too?)... and changed the Project sync settings to match the Video at 23.97.

Well all my regions got pushed to the wrong areas.

They we're all locked?

So I tried with all the regions un-locked to SMPTE and everything went smooth. No issues at all. Even all the audio regions I placed with p/up clock... to a BITC.

So this was opposite of what I thought was going to happen.

Any ideas why.

I none project, I locked only the extracted dialog track, and that was moved to the wrong placement too. Weird.

 

I did have things get messy before when the director had me change the tempo of an area. that DID mess up the timing of some hits etc.

Thanks for your help guys.

[fader8]

Then I locked all regions (BTW, does this include midi regions too?)... and changed the Project sync settings to match the Video at 23.97.

Well all my regions got pushed to the wrong areas.

They we're all locked?

So I tried with all the regions un-locked to SMPTE and everything went smooth. No issues at all. Even all the audio regions I placed with p/up clock... to a BITC.

Because when you locked to SMPTE, each region stored the time under your current framerate settings. Changing the timebase of the sequence timeline, ie the sample count per frame, would have understandably moved the regions.

 

As I implied in my earlier post, if you were spotting to the BITC to begin with, and the BITC was at the correct rate, then it really doesn't matter what framerate Logic is set to. The numbers will simply disagree but your project is still OK. This is how we sequence to project framerates that Logic doesn't, or didn't support in the past.

 

So burn off your audio, send it along and the editor will line up the 2-pop with his video sequence. In the end, you're both running 48k and sample count is sample count.

 

In the future, be sure to get reliable info from the editor regarding framerates and set up your project. FYI, when I receive anything longer than 10 minutes to work with, I'll request a 2-pop at the head and tail of the clip. This allows me to independently confirm the BITC is burned at the correct rate.

 

Good luck Deep!

[ski]

Apologies if I gave you the wrong advice. I was sure that locking the regions (and yes, that would have included MIDI regions) would have preserved the timing. That's what I thought I'd done in the past, on a project where I screwed up by not checking Logic's frame rate with picture and immediately launching into composing. (Since that project I learned not to screw up, so my memory must be hazy on the details of how to properly screw up and then recover).

 

Glad you got it sorted.

 

I'd also like to add to fader8's advice -- that you add a tail pop too.

[Richard G.]

Hi guys

 

Hope you don't mind my opening up this question a little as I'm guessing that you're probably in a position of knowlege!

 

I composer movie scores in the UK and just opened up a nightmare scenario on a film I'm scoring. 23.98 is still not a common format here yet although it is turning up more and more in Euro/USA productions because of HD We're all used to working in 24 fps / 25 for TV and 29 for USA productions

 

Logic doesn't seem to TRANSMIT 23.976 fps out of it's MIDI out ....... when you read what it's actually firing in another copy of Logic on another computer - it says it's 24 fps?

 

Is that nonsense?

 

I'm scoring a film which I've been given 23.976 fps QT MOVIE.

 

I use a Mac Pro to compose and produce the soundtrack with Logic, which fires 23.976 MTC to an external stand alone Macbook with software made by a company called Gallery - "Virtual VTR" which drives the QT Movie.

 

Reason for a separate QT Mac - is that I like not tying up valuable CPU with picture processing and Virtual VTR follows MTC & MMC to squirt a picture out through a Canopus box to a big plasma screen.

 

After a frustrating few days of jittering picture ......I started to investigate and experimented by Transmitting 23.98 MTC from Logic 8.02 out of one Mac into another Mac with Logic 8.02 that tells me THE 23.98 fps MTC BEING GENERATED BY LOGIC IS ACTUALLY 24fps?

 

I'm beginning to wonder if it's possible to generate a 23.98fps MTC?

 

Yet there it is in the LOGIC Synchronisation MIDI page "Transmit MIDI CLOCK" and on the GENERAL Synchronisation Page the FRAME RATE option of 23.976 fps?

 

Am I going mad?

Best to all

Dick

[ski]

23.976 is not unusual here (US), as it's the frame rate of the DVX100 camera favored/used by a lot of indy filmmakers.

 

To your post... please confirm what happens -- the movie drifts out of sync on the other machine?

 

Reason for a separate QT Mac - is that I like not tying up valuable CPU with picture processing and Virtual VTR follows MTC & MMC to squirt a picture out through a Canopus box to a big plasma screen.

 

I would think that you shouldn't have a problem playing back picture from a MacPro, provided that the picture lives on its own drive, the picture size isn't insanely large, and is a file format that Logic likes (i.e., DV) as opposed to something it doesn't like at all, like MP4.

 

To your other questions, I don't know to what extent Logic has been updated to output timecode at the 23.976 frame rate. But I know from working on a lot of 23.976 films that Logic's ability to conform its displays and calculations to 23.976 (one of the welcome additions to Logic 8 ) all works fine.

[fader8]

Yet there it is in the LOGIC Synchronisation MIDI page "Transmit MIDI CLOCK" and on the GENERAL Synchronisation Page the FRAME RATE option of 23.976 fps?

To be clear on something . . . you do not want to be transmitting MIDI Clock along with MTC on the ports feeding Virtual VTR. This could potentially cause lock errors on the slave.

[Richard G.]

To be clear on something . . . you do not want to be transmitting MIDI Clock along with MTC on the ports feeding Virtual VTR. This could potentially cause lock errors on the slave

 

Now if you lived around the corner ........ that would be an invitation to a bottle of something very worthy-!!

 

Thank you SO much - you've saved my life ....... I'm an absolute twit ....... of course - the MIDI clock and MTC were on at the same time.

 

If ever you're in Somerset England ........ there's a warm welcome awaiting!

 

Best

Dick

[fader8]

If ever you're in Somerset England ........ there's a warm welcome awaiting!

I'm going to hold you to that promise!

 

Glad it's working!

[ski]

Now I'm feeling invisible...

 

 

 

 

 

And I'll be in England the first week of December, so if it's alright with everyone I'll be a 'fader 8 proxy' and have those beers all the same. Fader8, watcha drinkin'?

 

[fader8]

so if it's alright with everyone I'll be a 'fader 8 proxy' and have those beers all the same. Fader8, watcha drinkin'?

Please, be my guest!

 

As beer goes, I'm partial to Fullers, usually the London Pride or the ESB. But what really pleases my palette is a Bowmore. If that's not available, then a Dalwhinnie is good. Glenmorangie if there isn't anything else . . .