Making Logic More Film Score Friendly

[FlowerPower]

Quote from Stevenson:

 

where i would like to see part of the approach you are advocating is the ability to drag an entire section of a song around arrange and preserve everything within in it - markers, key signatures, tempi - everything. and then when you move that section all sections outside of it are preserved exactly as they are, meaning automatic insertion tempo, key signature and time signatures to make sure they are unchanged.

 

--

 

This is a succinct summary of exactly what I need!!

 

That's also a succinct summary of what I want! But...if I drag eg. Cue#5 (bars 32-47) to a place where the end of this cue may overlap, say, the beginning of Cue#12, wouldn't this actually need separate, independent timelines? Again, I could live with non-overlapping timelines, and I'm sure the word 'timeline' by itself causes some confusion, because it could be used to describe both 'horizontal and vertical' timeline-changes: In other words, both a situation where one time-line takes over when another 'is finished', or: two timelines that exist at the same time.

 

I'm sure we'd all love if we could drag a an entire section around, inside a project, and at the same time preserve everything inside this (and other sections) when doing so... but like 'Question' says, since we can do these things manually, shouldn't Logic also be able to do this without a big strain on its resources (including situations where we only drag PART of a section later/earlier, inside a Cue)...?

 

This would of course also include moving tempo events inside a cue, and even beat map a section and still (to quote Stevenson) see that "all sections outside of it are preserved exactly as they are, meaning automatic insertion tempo, key signature and time signatures to make sure they are unchanged".

 

Question's and Stevenson's last posts make me a little optimistic; after all, it seems that we all more or less want the same thing.

 

I'll post some ideas (tomorrow?) regarding how these things IMHO could be best implemented.

[ski]

And also a "thank you" to Question for suggesting some time ago the workaround for maintaining the integrity of automation events by SMPTE-locking them. That seems to work very well in Logic 8 (as opposed to Logic 7, which was the version du jour when the Question discovered this). And without meaning to put down the idea in any sense, it's still a total pain in the ass process. It's something that Logic should give you the option to preserve when SMPTE-locking regions. It's quite the mind-bender just to understand the concept. Anyhoo...

 

What Stevenson wrote pretty much sums up what I'd like to do too.

 

Right now Logic lets you lock events to SMPTE which can be thought of as a method for preserving the timing of whatever you've written and letting you change the tempo underneath it after-the-fact to suit a new cue down the line. That's one way of working with multiple cues within a song, but of course your view of note placement on the grid (not to mention your score view) goes to s#!+ in the process. Yes, wouldn't it be great to be able to "lock" (in a whole new sense) a new kind of folder -- a "cue folder" -- and let you slide it around at will while Logic preserves the integrity of everything in it, including editor views! Meanwhile, a common set of instruments could be shared by all of them, although problems can arise if the same instrument was shared between overlapping cues. Overlapping volume automation rides come to mind. Even common notes shared between cues could potentially be a problem (a long sustained note from Cue "A" be prematurely cut off by the presence of the same overlapping note from Cue "B"). Hmmm....

 

FlowerPower, I'm very much looking forward to the ideas you have in mind!

[fader8]

The concept of a multiple cue Logic project has intrigued me for some time. As a Final Cut Pro user, I'm more than a little familiar with "nested" sequences, which is a direct parallel to what is being discussed here.

 

So, such a thing is very do-able but would necessarily come with a few limitations. To be at all practical, each cue in the master nest has to be its own complete Logic project, with its own mixer, samples in RAM, tempo map, etc. Like FCP, the whole project as a sequence, like one big folder, would be dragged into the master sequence which would trigger an offline bounce of the whole cue, then a disabling of its associated audio objects and plugs. Kind of like freezing a track but it's the whole mix.

 

So then you have a new arrange, with its own mixer, and the whole film. 2-clicking a cue-region opens (unfreezes) the cue, which only references the region of the film that matches its timeline in the master sequence.

 

I think you'd have to dispense with tempo features in the master sequence though, but maybe that's OK?

 

Anyway, just some fleeting thoughts I've had on this . . .

[stevenson]

So, such a thing is very do-able but would necessarily come with a few limitations. To be at all practical, each cue in the master nest has to be its own complete Logic project, with its own mixer, samples in RAM, tempo map, etc. Like FCP, the whole project as a sequence, like one big folder, would be dragged into the master sequence which would trigger an offline bounce of the whole cue, then a disabling of its associated audio objects and plugs. Kind of like freezing a track but it's the whole mix.

 

this precisely what i was talking about too - although a tad more succinct. while i don't hold much hope that our ideas for grabbing a chunk of a song and moving it will see the light of day anytime soon, it is certainly within the realms of currently existing technology to be able to have updated bounces from song to song.

 

and question - using compiled folders is the strategy we have for trying out existing material in different places. by that we take demo bounces of our work and set them up in a song with minimal instruments - just moving audio files around. then you can do sound edits of the cues to see what works from where, copy and paste material from one song to the other and then use 'move audio to original position' to line up your edits to the sections of the song you want to use and then snip the rest.

 

like you, i generally only use RBA because it is a) more reliable b) more easily moveable and copyable c) doesn't do weird things if you need to snip the song.

 

either way (whether it be timelines or individual songs) we still need a solution for the lack of memory within logic's address space. performance and reliability go down the toilet when logics memory space is full. i am not sure if mmap IS the answer since it dynamically ensures the memory space is ALWAYS full. taking the audio load off the sequencer seems like a sensible, practical and easy to implement solution.

[Fred B]

either way (whether it be timelines or individual songs) we still need a solution for the lack of memory within logic's address space. performance and reliability go down the toilet when logics memory space is full. i am not sure if mmap IS the answer since it dynamically ensures the memory space is ALWAYS full. taking the audio load off the sequencer seems like a sensible, practical and easy to implement solution.

I think the address space limitation is imposed by the operating system and can't be manipulated by individual applications. In theory it might be possible to restructure Logic into multiple applications but that looks like a problematic hack to me. Sooner or later the problem will be gone anyway due to 64-bit addressing.

 

In the meantime you could for example run Logic Pro and Express together on the same machine for doubling the address space, using one as sequencer and the other for audio stuff.

[stevenson]

I think the address space limitation is imposed by the operating system and can't be manipulated by individual applications. In theory it might be possible to restructure Logic into multiple applications but that looks like a problematic hack to me. Sooner or later the problem will be gone anyway due to 64-bit addressing.

 

actually, logic NOT becoming 32 bit is for various reasons. firstly the au spec and the SDK are not 64 bit compatible yet so making logic 64-bit is a bit of anon-starter until they are. also, there are potential performance considerations with respect to track numbers and GUI that may take a hit depending on how logic is compiled. also your audio drivers and 3rd party plugs won't work, so backwards compatibility would be an issue. although, steinberg have come up with a VST wrapper for 32bit plugs in their 64bit apps so it is not insurmountable, but i don't know how well it works. the main area for making 64bit is with working with large sample libraries and there are ways around that other than 64bit logic hosts everything.

 

In the meantime you could for example run Logic Pro and Express together on the same machine for doubling the address space, using one as sequencer and the other for audio stuff.

 

well, how is that different from logic running its audio in a separate app? you may call it a hack, i call it major step forward in enhancing pretty well the only you can work with logic these days.

 

if logic were 64bit tomorrow, you would still have the issue of switching songs. its not terribly fast in all audio songs, but it is a major nightmare here (i have yet to set up my sounds in an external app - have to wait until after this project). my idea is to extend the 'project' paradigm to include your layup. you have a project folder and all your sounds are loaded for ALL your songs in a separate app. these may include logic native plugs.

 

now when you switch songs it will be as fast as switching songs when you used all external midi gear like in the old days.

 

calling up new sounds load these into the separate app as you go through your project. you only have to load these up once in the day, when you begin your session. such a seperate app may also allow you to handle your resources more intelligently. simple pads can stream, but harps, celestes and pianos etc can all reside in RAM.

 

the technique for getting sound from one app to another is really well established. i am not suggesting this as just a solution to lack of memory in logic, i am suggesting this as really really efficient way of managing your layup and aiding switching between songs.

 

you can do it now as you already pointed out, but if the logic guys found an intuitive integrated solution it would be so much easier.

[FlowerPower]

The concept of a multiple cue Logic project has intrigued me for some time. As a Final Cut Pro user, I'm more than a little familiar with "nested" sequences, which is a direct parallel to what is being discussed here.

 

So, such a thing is very do-able but would necessarily come with a few limitations. To be at all practical, each cue in the master nest has to be its own complete Logic project, with its own mixer, samples in RAM, tempo map, etc.

 

Why not add some sort of 'sub-project' (of course with it's own grid/tempo map), but share the same samples in memory (but not EXS preset), and the same movie (in memory)?

 

Try this: open an EXS with a preset using a lot of samples. Watch the Activity Monitor>Memory. Press the New Track With Duplicate Setting-button. This creates a new track, with the same EXS preset (which can have it's own automation etc), but doesn't eat extra sample memory...

 

The idea about 'freezing' a whole cue that's overlapping another cue is interesting.

 

I think what you want is multiple arrangements allowed in one song project. [...]

Maybe multiple tracks in the "meta arrange" window so you can overlap/crossfade "arrangement regions" -- though you're getting into potential signature/tempo conflict issues there.

 

I think that all I need is that Logic (in the background) allows us to have multiple timelines (which may or may not overlap each other), just like we can have multiple multiple polyphonic voices on one stave, independent of each other.

 

Option 1: However, I don't think the average user want to think of something sounding as complex as 'multiple timelines' or 'meta arrangements'. I, for one, would prefer to relate to simple terms like "Cues" (when working with... cues), or "Elements".

 

So: if I could tell Logic that a given area (say, everything that belongs to marker 5, between bars 48 and 72), should be an 'independent cue', or an 'independent marker', it would live it's own life, so to speak (and, invisibly, have it's own timeline; it's own grid and set of tempo changes). This would be a 'marker-based', independent element (sharing samples in memory).

 

 

Such a solution could result in one pseudo-problem: when looking at the score, there would be "untraditional stuff" going on when Cue#5 starts, because the previous timeline would be interrupted by a new "1 1 1 1" (or a new 48 1 1 1) - maybe in the middle of an existing bar. But: this would also reflect what actually happened in that project - so it would IMO be a good thing. If a musical cue is cut off in the middle because a new cue starts, I don't want to spend time trying to make it look like something else anyway. But: when printing out stuff, the user could eg. decide that the selected (of two competing regions) should be printed.

 

If this separate, invisible timeline should be accessed on a per marker, or per cue basis, I wouldn't really have the option of having cues (tempo maps) overlap each other. I couldn't let a marimba arpeggio from Cue 5 continue into, and overlap, a string section starting in Cue#6 without tweaking the tempi (if they originally were different from each other).

 

Option 2: Since I prefer not to deal with a lot of different dialog boxes, and want things as simple as possible, maybe a better way to implement 'independent cues' is a way to assign tracks (and not markers) to a separate timeline (it would probably be better to (user-interface-wise) to describe it as assigning tracks to different 'cues'...

 

In other words: I could assign tracks 12-18 to an independent cue (which could be given a name by the user), and this way, cues could overlap each other with no hassle, and keep their original timing, grid and tempo changes without the user having to deal with anything else than telling Logic that 'these tracks are now assigned to "Cue#5", or 'these tracks are now assigned to "Scene 5, Paul discover that Michael has stolen his money".

 

Option 3: Since tracks can be assigned to multiple groups, maybe something as simple as allowing a group to have it's own tempo map/grid would be one of the simplest solutions.

 

A fourth option would be to assign folders, and not tracks to 'independent cues/timelines'. But since Logic folders cannot be opened the same way as Finder folders can (with that little triangle), I'm not sure if I like the idea of having to open and close folders (or windows) in order to see two different cues at the same time.

 

Option 5: Or... maybe assigning windows to a separate cue wouldn't be such a bad idea?

 

Option 6: Or even simpler: maybe Logic simply should be able to have two (memory sharing) projects open at the same time, and that if they user click a button, they would all start playback at the same time, meaning that one of the windows, containing Cue # 5, would somehow sync up to the same time code, but still have it's separate grid and tempo changes? (Disclaimer; some memory adressing issues would need to be addressed, and this could easily end up with UI confusion..)

 

Option 7: Screen sets - one screenset could be assigned to a different, independent cue (probably not the best solution..)

 

Option 8: A new global track, called 'Cues', could behave like tabs - in the sense that clicking on one of the Cue names would show that particular cue in the Arrange window (with an option to show all of them at the same time)

 

Option 9: Split screens: upper part could show one cue, lower part could show another (not so sure about that one...)

 

Option 10: A new thing that behaves similar to take folders (collapsible with a triangle): 'Cue-Folder' or 'Independent Element', which would allow us to open that cue and edit it at the same time as we saw the other stuff in Arrange could be a good solution, and have some parallels to an already existing feature (Takes).

 

Option 11: A Wavebruner-like graphical overview at the top of the screen could show as all the cues/elements in the song (independent of Global Tracks), and clicking on on of the cues/elements could show it in Arrange.

 

I guess the main issue here is that we all seem to want Logic to implement something that actually deals with the need for separate cues, in a more elegant way than having to SPMTE lock all events before and after the cue we're working on in order to not see them drift (this will let them drift away from the bar grid anyway).

 

Maybe there are better solutions than those I suggest, and maybe what I suggest even is some kind of 'meta arrangement', but my main focus is that I want Logic to 'think' the same way I do. When making music for movies/TV, I think in terms of 'cues' (and their need to be independent of each other), and not something with semi-strange names like 'independent timelines' or 'meta-arrangements'.

 

With an extra level of possibilities, Maybe Logic would ned some smart warning messages ("You are now having two cues overlapping each other. Cancel | Freeze the first Cue | Freeze the second Cue", or "EXS Instrument ****** is now being used by two different cues. Do you want to create a new, independent track? Yes | Cancel".)

 

 

Songs aren't called songs anymore in Logic, but projects; I guess all I want is that Logic allows me to have more than one "song" in one project, songs that may or may not need to overlap each other. For me personally, the independent-ness of each song/cue is much more important than the need to have musical pieces overlapping each other.

[Fred B]

According to the object-oriented paradigm of Logic I think the most natural and general extension would be to have multiple instances of sequencers in one song/project, as can be found for example in Numerology2.

[Fred B]

the technique for getting sound from one app to another is really well established. i am not suggesting this as just a solution to lack of memory in logic, i am suggesting this as really really efficient way of managing your layup and aiding switching between songs.

 

you can do it now as you already pointed out, but if the logic guys found an intuitive integrated solution it would be so much easier.

I'd rather suggest that the OS X guys provide an integrated solution for audio routing, just like IAC for MIDI.

[stevenson]

I'd rather suggest that the OS X guys provide an integrated solution for audio routing, just like IAC for MIDI.

 

sure well i don't care who does it. there are many applications that do it:

 

audio jack, rewire, plogue bidule, rax, wiretap, vbus, sbus.

 

you just need another app such as waveburner, which accesses logics plugs and 3rd party aus to host the plugs and samples. each 'plug-in' within logic is nothing more than an interface scripting changes to the corresponding plug-in in the secondary app. the logic guys could do stuff like that standing on their heads.....

 

which probably means they won't. they only go for really exotic solutions....

[fader8]

stevenson,

The Waveburner analogy is a good one I think, for what a "master" sequence could look like. Although more than 2 tracks would be nice as then you could keep alternate versions of a cue on muted tracks. Combine that with your suggestion of "tabbed" sequences, and you're really looking at a clone of FCP's nested sequence paradigm.

 

So there's some common ground, but seeing that the FCP guys are in Cali and the Emagic guys are still in Germany, they may not be talkin much!

[stevenson]

well i meant waveburner to show another app that can use logic and 3rd party au plugs. i would like the guts ripped out of logic and put into a standalone app - albeit running in the background and managed through logic. again i stress - i would love to have all the resources i need for my songs loaded once, and be able to switch between songs instantly.

[ski]

FlowerPower wrote:

 

Such a solution could result in one pseudo-problem: when looking at the score, there would be "untraditional stuff" going on when Cue#5 starts, because the previous timeline would be interrupted by a new "1 1 1 1" (or a new 48 1 1 1) - maybe in the middle of an existing bar.

 

If this kind of overlapping music we're writing is to be played by live musicians, they'd never be able to read such a score. Sure, it all depends on the severity of the overlap and how cleverly you might end up being able to notate it to make it playable (hopefully in a way that doesn't approach the difficulty of a Charles Ives' "The Unanswered Question"). But in such a situation where separate pieces of music are (more or less) artificially being slung around in time, I'd rather just notate and also record the cues separately (i.e., not worry about the potentially very messy display that would result).

 

As I mentioned above and to elaborate a little further (as well as pick up on some of the other ideas presented here)... If each cue could become self-contained (per my notion of a "cue folder" above), I propose that once you're inside that folder, all editors (score, p/roll, event, tempo, etc.) reflect only the contents of the enclosed regions according to that folder's self-contained timeline. The only way that a "master score display" (reflecting the contents of each cue folder) would work is if the staves or systems of each score could be shown in parallel. But imagine the trainwreck of a display that could result from just two cues' scores, let alone three or more?! Back to "The Unanswered Question".

 

Anyway, back to cue folders... The "arrange page" on which those folders lived would be like a master SMPTE-based timeline on which those folders could be slid around at random, preserving the timing and notation display of whatever they contain.

 

I'd go one step further and suggest a feature called a "cue anchor": Normally the left edge of a folder (or cue folder) acts as a master sync point for the material it contains. But the left edge of a folder doesn't always correspond to the actual downbeat of the music. Examples include music with program changes ahead of the first notes, music with a pickup, ambient music that fades in slowly, etc. So if you wanted to repeat a cue somewhere down the timeline and sync it to a particular frame of picture, the left edge of the cue folder might not accurately represent a good sync point for the cue.

 

To remedy this, you'd place a (new) "cue anchor event" on a track (maybe a "no output track") that let's you define a sync point for the original cue. Now you make a copy of that folder, set the playhead to a specific SMPTE position and then use "pickup clock" on that copy of the folder. BAM, the folder's anchor point aligns with the playhead.

 

Ideas... ideas...

Edited November 14, 2008 by ski

[fader8]

Anyway, back to cue folders... The "arrange page" on which those folders lived would be like a master SMPTE-based timeline on which those folders could be slid around at random, preserving the timing and notation display of whatever they contain.

 

Hmm . . I'm thinking some kind of "tempo crossfade editor" could be useful here too.

 

. . . dreaming on . . .

 

I think we've collectively nailed it. Now, . . how do we get it done, LOL!

[ski]

I think we've collectively nailed it. Now, . . how do we get it done, LOL!

 

Buy DP?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[crickets]

[macintonwa]

Hmm . . I'm thinking some kind of "tempo crossfade editor" could be useful here too.

 

something like STPs conform window?

 

you guys have put these ideas down so eloquently, great reading!

[Beer Moth]

Just remember...

Bush isn;t gone yet.

January 21 is the earliest for change.

 

We are in a temporal crossfade as we fart.

 

What we really need is a damn good engineer in the White House.

 

F8?

 

Or maybe we see a white house and we want to paint it black?

 

Or is it already?

Nearly?

 

Sure have got the browns this morning,baby.

 

Perhaps less liquid input.

 

Bugger.

 

There goes another hic or two.

 

One of these days I'll guage it right.

 

Bu t un til that day ...

[fader8]

We are in a temporal crossfade as we fart.

 

What we really need is a damn good engineer in the White House.

 

F8?

I'm totally hip to that groovy scene, Daddio.

 

[FlowerPower]

FlowerPower wrote:

 

Such a solution could result in one pseudo-problem: when looking at the score, there would be "untraditional stuff" going on when Cue#5 starts, because the previous timeline would be interrupted by a new "1 1 1 1" (or a new 48 1 1 1) - maybe in the middle of an existing bar.

 

If this kind of overlapping music we're writing is to be played by live musicians, they'd never be able to read such a score. Sure, it all depends on the severity of the overlap and how cleverly you might end up being able to notate it to make it playable

Hi again, little comment (shorter this time )!

 

I already suggested a solution for the potential problem of overlapping regions in an earlier post, and Logic already has one: just mute the one you don't want to see (temporarily), and it won't be printed.

 

 

 

As I mentioned above and to elaborate a little further (as well as pick up on some of the other ideas presented here)... If each cue could become self-contained (per my notion of a "cue folder" above), I propose that once you're inside that folder, all editors (score, p/roll, event, tempo, etc.) reflect only the contents of the enclosed regions according to that folder's self-contained timeline.

 

At least one other DAW has something that may/could be called 'region groups'. This allows the user to select a number of regions, assign the to a region group (the function probably has another name), and, when they're grouped, moving one of them will move the others. The regions don't have to start or and at equal positions to belong to a group; one regions could start a little earlier than the others, and a few may last longer (etc).

 

This could maybe be an ideal way to deal with cues - if these groups could

 

a) be given names

b) be declared as 'independent' (of the master tempo and master grid)

c) clicking on one of these regions would make Logic show the name of it's group belonging somehwere in the Arrange window.

 

This would also solve the problem with overlapping regions in score (either overlapping on the same track or overlapping, timewise, on separate other tracks.

 

 

I'd go one step further and suggest a feature called a "cue anchor".

Interesting idea...!

[stevenson]

This could maybe be an ideal way to deal with cues - if these groups could

 

a) be given names

b) be declared as 'independent' (of the master tempo and master grid)

c) clicking on one of these regions would make Logic show the name of it's group belonging somehwere in the Arrange window.

 

This would also solve the problem with overlapping regions in score (either overlapping on the same track or overlapping, timewise, on separate other tracks.

 

god i could so use something like this. i never use automation groups - i see absolutely no need. but i am often moving sections and they often involve some form of anacrusis or lead up to a section or hit. that means sections i want to move overlap with others that i don't making editing complex arrangements very tricky and brain exhausting.

 

if i had something like this i could be organized to begin with and then editing would be extremely easy.

[FlowerPower]

How often do you guys have cues that are overlapping each other, eg. by having the end of one cue lasting a bit into the beginning of the next?

 

 

I was thinking of another possible solution, where Logic could add a third element to the bar ruler, in addition to Bar and Time: "Cues". or "Songs": New tempo, downbeat (1 1 1 1) and a new grid would (optionally) start with every new cue in the bar ruler.

 

This could possibly work well if cues rarely would overlap each other, and if if they did, there could be ways to tell a region that started inside one cue and ending in another which grid/tempo map it should belong to.

 

Hey, this thread is blinking now!

 

http://www.logicprohelp.com/templates/BBLite/images/folder_hot.gif

[the sinner]

wow - some really great ideas in this thread. i am really liking the tempo independent region MIDI idea. I think we have all been in a situation like that - and it would help things maintain an element of un-quantization and liveliness - plus I hate beat mapping.

 

I frequently have cues overlap each other - so yes that would be of help. Often if you have an attaca style cue - it is easier to make it separate cues at the moment where they merge - just for file management and such.

[Vidius]

Some wonderful ideas!

I really dig the multiple cues in one project idea.

 

sidenote: Not only for scoring, but also for just music it owuld be great.

For some projects it would be great to have a whole album of say 12 songs in one project. For exactly the same reasons as for scoring for film!

[ski]

How often do you guys have cues that are overlapping each other, eg. by having the end of one cue lasting a bit into the beginning of the next?

 

Often.

[Surreal]

can we agree to the general improvement of the score editor?

[ski]

can we agree to the general improvement of the score editor?

 

While preparing scores is certainly part of scoring picture, I think we should confine this thread to nuts & bolts film scoring operations and cue manipulation.

 

There are already numerous threads regarding score editor wish list items and improvements, though it might be good to start another "brainstorming" thread in the spirit of this one. Please go here.