ski Posted November 24, 2008 Share Posted November 24, 2008 Hi, it's your ol' pal Mr. I Hate Compression here. It's true. I rarely ever use compression, but I'm finding that I need to use it on a few projects I'm currently working on. I've read glowing reports of how Logic 8's compressor sounds so much better than L7's version, so that's been my go-to for the past few days. Using my ears and trial and error I've taken a liking to the VCA and Opto settings on piano and vocals. The Logic manual is scant on descriptions, so my first question is: which real-world hardware compressors are being simulated by VCA, Opto, Class A_R, Class A_U, and FET? Next... even though I like the smoothness of the VCA and Opto settings, I couldn't help but notice that they both killed the high end sheen on some very delicately-played piano tracks, even with the threshold set at 0. Has anyone else noticed this kind of thing? That loss of high end made me think to look for a 3rd party compressor that sounds absolutely transparent. What would you recommend? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fader8 Posted November 24, 2008 Share Posted November 24, 2008 Hi Mr. Hate, The Logic manual is scant on descriptions, so my first question is: which real-world hardware compressors are being simulated by VCA, Opto, Class A_R, Class A_U, and FET? Great little synopsis here: http://www.uaudio.com/webzine/2006/april/text/content4.html Next... even though I like the smoothness of the VCA and Opto settings, I couldn't help but notice that they both killed the high end sheen on some very delicately-played piano tracks, even with the threshold set at 0. Has anyone else noticed this kind of thing? Watch the knee setting. Even with the threshold at 0, the knee can still engage the comp. That loss of high end made me think to look for a 3rd party compressor that sounds absolutely transparent. What would you recommend? Before I recommend Oxford Dynamics and Limiter, keep trying with Logic's comp. Listen for what freq range the actual "problem lies in and then set up the sidechain filter for bandpass. With the activity mode in "Listen", monitor the sidechain path while sweeping the filter. This gives you a lot more selectivity as to what the comp responds to. It can make all the difference sometimes. VCA is always going to be the most transparent, BTW. With all that said, what are you trying to achieve? Peak control? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holger Lagerfeldt Posted November 24, 2008 Share Posted November 24, 2008 (edited) Next... even though I like the smoothness of the VCA and Opto settings, I couldn't help but notice that they both killed the high end sheen on some very delicately-played piano tracks, even with the threshold set at 0. Has anyone else noticed this kind of thing? Like fader8 said, check the knee. And check the limiter. And check the extended parameters (like distortion is turned off). Compression in general will eat some high end as the transients are compressed. I don't think you'll find 3rd party compressors more transparent necessarily. On the contrary, many are less transparent on purpose. A good trick with piano compression is using a VCA with very low ratio (e.g. <1.25 : 1) and a 80 Hz sidechain filter to avoid pumping from the hammer action. Pull the threshold until you get constant compression. Activate auto-release (which is actually more like semi-automatic) and adjust attack/release until the sound is right. The optimum setting will depend on why you're compressing. Are you trying to compensate for macro dynamics, i.e. low passages need to be brought up? Or are you trying to compensate for peaks? Or both? It's possible to combine two compressors (serially connected) to achieve both at the same time which can sound quite transparent and pleasing. If you're primarily trying to compensate for low passages then try parallel compression instead. That's probably the most transparent you can get. Parallel compression is possible inside the Logic Compressor now by using the % slider. In parallel compression you want to add a heavily compressed signal (very fast attack, long release, medium ratio) to the uncompressed signal. This will affect low volume passages a lot but high volume passages relatively little. Edited November 24, 2008 by lagerfeldt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ski Posted November 24, 2008 Author Share Posted November 24, 2008 fader8... man you SOOOOO rock! [late breaking news] -- lagerfeldt, just saw your post. Thanks for your sagely advice as well! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holger Lagerfeldt Posted November 24, 2008 Share Posted November 24, 2008 i just update my post BTW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ski Posted November 25, 2008 Author Share Posted November 25, 2008 Thank you Lagerfeldt for expanding your answer -- very useful information! The 80 Hz sidechain cut worked magic on one of my tracks! What I was looking to achieve on another track was to reduce the peakiness of a few notes on an otherwise very quietly-played acoustic piano part. I hit a few notes a little too hard and they really stuck out. What I ended up doing was automating an EQ cut at (2500K) at those moments and that did the trick. Which makes me wonder about something... Is there such a thing as a "dynamic EQ compressor" that actually works like an automated EQ as I described above? In other words, there'd be a detector to set a triggering frequency band and a threshold. There'd be another EQ circuit through which the audio was processed. When the threshold was crossed, the plug would apply an EQ cut to the signal. This would dynamically EQ the sound rather than modulate the overall volume level. Is there such a thing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shivermetimbers Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 Don't know. You think those a-holes at Apple would invent a multipressor where you could control specific frequencies.... sheeesh! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ski Posted November 25, 2008 Author Share Posted November 25, 2008 This multipressor concept you speak of... does it actually alter an EQ band, or does it squash the volume of a frequency selected (i.e., a crossover) band of music based on the energy of that band? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fader8 Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 shiver, I think the multipressor is a bit broad-brush for this. The X-over filters aren't tight enough. ski, The function you're describing is that of a really good quality de-esser. Logic doesn't have one, but it is possible to "make" one using Logic's mixer and a few strategically placed stock plug-ins. De-essers are not "just for" de-essing! FYI, great plugs for this: Sonalksis DQ1, UAD Precision De-Esser, Eiosis E2Deesser. But if it's just a few notes, it might be easier to just do some automation editing? Or . . are the notes mid keyboard and therefore center of the stereo field? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kongwee Posted November 26, 2008 Share Posted November 26, 2008 Share a bit here. I have a left and right mono track of piano. I crossfade both channel at 1KHz with -24dB/Oct slope in EQ.In Mutlipresser, I also do the samething like the EQ. I get very good stereo image. My piano capture is at very low level most of the time,as they are very close to the piano strings. Have to use compressor to boost up the volume. But can't match those pro level of EQing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fader8 Posted December 15, 2008 Share Posted December 15, 2008 Share a bit here. I have a left and right mono track of piano. I crossfade both channel at 1KHz with -24dB/Oct slope in EQ.In Mutlipresser, I also do the samething like the EQ. I get very good stereo image. My piano capture is at very low level most of the time,as they are very close to the piano strings. Have to use compressor to boost up the volume. But can't match those pro level of EQing. Sorry kongwee, I missed this question previously. I must have been lapse in my moderator duties that day! I'd suggest you start a new thread with this topic as it's not directly related to the subject of this one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkgross Posted December 15, 2008 Share Posted December 15, 2008 ski..did you try any of the UAD compressors?? Fader and Lager...great info...indeed..tweaking the knee makes a LOT of difference...can't wait to try this on some piano sounds!!! - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeddah James Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 Hi Guys, With respect to Logics compressor - extended parameters, mentioned above. Activity mode offers: Off, Listen & On, presumably to activate, audition or disable the side chain filter. Why then can you only hear the effect of the filter with 'Listen' selected & not 'On'? The manual as mentioned, is very sparse relating to this function & only states that 'Listen' is an 'audition' facility. I have consulted the forums search function, Davids book, the manual etc.. but I just can't find an answer. If anyone has it, I would be most grateful! JJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Nahmani Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 Why then can you only hear the effect of the filter with 'Listen' selected & not 'On'? Did you choose a sidechain source from the sidechain menu? That filter is for the sidechain, not the main audio signal. When the Sidechain filter is set to "on" it is active, so you can hear your compressed signal triggered by the filtered sidechain signal. When it is set to "Listen" you can listen to the filtered sidechain signal (usually to adjust the filter). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeddah James Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 Hi David, No! I had nothing selected as a side chain source. So I have misunderstood the concept. I thought the side chain filter was an integral compressor filter. Is it then purely for filtering a side chain input from a channel or bus? If so, what might that source normally be i.e on that channel or bus? Showing my side-chain ignorance here!! Thanks for the prompt reply! JJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Nahmani Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 What might that source normally be? Well I guess it could be just about anything you want it to be! For example, let's say you have two tracks: one drum loop, and one bass track. You want to compress the bass whenever the kick drum is played. You insert the compressor on the bass track, set the sidechain to the drum loop track, and filter out the highs until only the kick drum goes through (or almost). Now the bass will be tamed only when the kick hits. That's a classic dance music technique to make it appear as the kick is louder than it really is, since the bass isn't fighting as much with it - and at the same time it creates a nice, "bouncing" bass line which just makes you want to get up and shake your rump. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeddah James Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 Cool! That makes perfect sense. I've been using Logic for 5 years & hardly ever used a side-chain function! (D'oh!) Apart from your Sculpture/Es1 suggestion of course! Thanks again for such a quick response! JJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Nahmani Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 Glad to help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigel Mk II Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 .... makes me wonder about something... Is there such a thing as a "dynamic EQ compressor" that actually works like an automated EQ as I described above? In other words, there'd be a detector to set a triggering frequency band and a threshold. There'd be another EQ circuit through which the audio was processed. When the threshold was crossed, the plug would apply an EQ cut to the signal. This would dynamically EQ the sound rather than modulate the overall volume level. Is there such a thing? have you checked out paul frindles new plugin: http://www.proaudiodsp.com/products/dsm/ sounds like what you want, nest pas? check out the videos. its a pretty good deesser, too cheers, Nigel MK II Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fader8 Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 I thought the side chain filter was an integral compressor filter. Is it then purely for filtering a side chain input from a channel or bus? The filter is for the sidechain signal which can be either the track signal the compressor is on, or, an external key signal if one is selected from the sidechain menu. So the answer to your question is yes, it's for both. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Nahmani Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 I thought the side chain filter was an integral compressor filter. Is it then purely for filtering a side chain input from a channel or bus? The filter is for the sidechain signal which can be either the track signal the compressor is on, or, an external key signal if one is selected from the sidechain menu. So the answer to your question is yes, it's for both. But... the filter is always for the sidechain signal, never for the main signal - which explains why the filtering disappears when sidechain activity is set to anything other than "Listen". I think Jeddah thought the filter could be applied to the main signal. I mean, obviously, you could leave the "sidechain activity" on "Listen" and not choose any sidechain, if you only wanted to use the compressor's filter, but then you couldn't use the compressor! So ... you might as well use a simple filter plug-in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fader8 Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 I think Jeddah thought the filter could be applied to the main signal. Ah, I see how he misunderstood now. Hey Jeddah, try changing the filter while hard compressing a full mix, with itself and keyed with various tracks. You'll start to grok how this all works in no time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apoplexia.music Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 i have a related question about side-chaining i'm not very used to using this feature and i was wondering why only Busses and Audio channels can be used for side-chaining in Logic 8's compressor. for instance, if i am mixing drums using parallel compression (sending all my drum tracks into a Bus and sending that Bus into an Aux with the NYC Compressor Channel strip setting i found on this forum), if i want my bass track to be compressed with the kick drum in side-chain, do i absolutely have to make that trakc into audio? can't logic use instrument tracks as sidechains, and if not why? thank you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Nahmani Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 Just send that track to a Bus, and delete the corresponding Aux that is automatically created. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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