Leveling for output- each track or on master?

[camillo jr]

I'm getting something mastered and the mastering guy asked that the optimum output level be established via the individual tracks, rather than moving the output fader up or down to get it in the ball park.

 

I thought that in Logic with 32 bit floating point, this was no longer an issue, that all I had to do if the tracks were too hot or too quiet was to adjust the output fader accordingly.

 

He says it does make a difference and that he's tested this out with various DAWS. In essence he's saying that the conversion at the output to bring the signal into the right zone results in a degradation that doesn't happen when this is done via each track. Any input from here on the subject?

[David Nahmani]

You are right.

 

As long as you are using Logic and no 3rd party plug-ins, then the Audio Engine being 32 bit float, lowering the master results in the same effects as lowering each fader.

 

I have talked to the Logic developers about this and have done my own tests, comparing files with the two methods, and demonstrating bit for bit identical results whether lowering the master or the individual tracks.

 

Obviously, any 'gain-dependant' plug-in (such as anything with a 'threshold' setting) will change its behavior when you change the gain before its input, so keep that in mind as well. If you have such plug-ins on your master fader, then insert a gain plug-in in front and lower the level before the plug-in, not on the master fader itself.

 

http://www.logicprohelp.com/viewtopic.php?t=3270

http://www.logicprohelp.com/viewtopic.php?t=2996

[Ashermusic]

You are right.

 

As long as you are using Logic and no 3rd party plug-ins, then the Audio Engine being 32 bit float, lowering the master results in the same effects as lowering each fader.

 

I have talked to the Logic developers about this and have done my own tests, comparing files with the two methods, and demonstrating bit for bit identical results whether lowering the master or the individual tracks.

 

Obviously, any 'gain-dependant' plug-in (such as anything with a 'threshold' setting) will change its behavior when you change the gain before its input, so keep that in mind as well. If you have such plug-ins on your master fader, then insert a gain plug-in in front and lower the level before the plug-in, not on the master fader itself.

 

http://www.logicprohelp.com/viewtopic.php?t=3270

http://www.logicprohelp.com/viewtopic.php?t=2996

 

David is absolutely correct and the M.E. is wrong.

 

BUT

 

I don't know a single person doing professional caliber work on a level that would require mastering that is not using any 3rd party plug-ins or 3rd party virtual instruments which as David said they certainly can be greatly affected by level.

 

My advice is to stick with traditional good mix practices and keep your channel levels under control with a minimum of going into the red, using pre-fader metering 32 bit float or not, because:

 

1. These are the habits you will take with you as you move from recording environment to recording environment i..e. analog or ProTools.

 

2. If you are not presently using 3rd party plug-ins now if you continue to work professionally with Logic you probably will. While the included plug-ins are very good compared to the ones that come with its competitors there are better ones out there that you will want to augment them.

[David Nahmani]

Jay, I gave an easy solution for all 3rd party plug-in users: insert a gain plug-in (and maybe a metering plug-in) in front.

 

While I agree with Jay on starting with good classic standard level practice (just.. don't hit the red!), it often happens that as you build your song you have automation on most of your tracks, on some of your busses, and now your master is in the red.

 

So on one hand it should teach you to be more conservative with your levels next time around to avoid that problem, but for now all you have to do is lower the gain on the summing bus (by inserting a gain plug-in at the top of the Out 1-2 object if you have 3rd party plug-ins on it, or by adjusting the level on that object).

 

So: I agree with Jay in that just because your tool is 32 bit floating point doesn't mean you should change all your mixing habits. But since it is 32 bit floating point, don't waste time trimming all your automation in case you run into that problem. Just trim the summing bus. The result will be a the same.

[Ashermusic]

Jay, I gave an easy solution for all 3rd party plug-in users: insert a gain plug-in (and maybe a metering plug-in) in front.

 

While I agree with Jay on starting with good classic standard level practice (just.. don't hit the red!), it often happens that as you build your song you have automation on most of your tracks, on some of your busses, and now your master is in the red.

 

So on one hand it should teach you to be more conservative with your levels next time around to avoid that problem, but for now all you have to do is lower the gain on the summing bus (by inserting a gain plug-in at the top of the Out 1-2 object if you have 3rd party plug-ins on it, or by adjusting the level on that object).

 

So: I agree with Jay in that just because your tool is 32 bit floating point doesn't mean you should change all your mixing habits. But since it is 32 bit floating point, don't waste time trimming all your automation in case you run into that problem. Just trim the summing bus. The result will be a the same.

 

Well stated, David. I wonder if it isn't a good idea to have an unistantiated Gain in the first insert of every channel of an Autoload. What do you think?

 

But folks, don't let yourself get in that position. Remember, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

[camillo jr]

Thanks for all the feedback guys.

 

I went in for a pre-listening session with the M.E. and most of those songs had been adjusted simply by lowering the output fader and he had no quibbles with the sound quality. (A few EQ quibbles yes, so I have some adjusting to do in that department.) It's interesting.... he's a well respected M.E. here in Vancouver and gets a lot of work but I guess that's his version of an ounce of prevention.

 

And yes, I am looking forward to getting some nicer plugs to play around with but so far the composer in me always wins out and I end up buying new sounds rather than the sound shapers. It will come.