music theory question

[vpunk]

OK - It's a bit winded and I'm not even sure this makes sense, so I'll do my best to keep this concise and to the point.

 

Let's say I'm working in C major. And while working in C major I play a B major chord. Is that possible? If I look at the notes that are available in C major, they are ALL white keys. However to play a B major requires the 3rd and 5th to be black keys. So if I'm not allowed any black keys in C major, what the hell did I just do? I'm really confused.

 

I guess my question comes down to this: In the realm of music theory, what gets greater importance? The key that I'm working in, or the fact that I play a B major, and the two black keys get played?

 

Thanks!

[Eriksimon]

OK - It's a bit winded and I'm not even sure this makes sense, so I'll do my best to keep this concise and to the point.

 

Let's say I'm working in C major. And while working in C major I play a B major chord. Is that possible?

 

Yes...

 

If I look at the notes that are available in C major, they are ALL white keys. However to play a B major requires the 3rd and 5th to be black keys. So if I'm not allowed any black keys in C major, what the hell did I just do? I'm really confused.

 

I don't know the term for this in English, but using notes or even chords that "fall outside" of the key, is very, very common. The Key of a piece is determined by "popular vote", sort of: though I may have a B chord and even a C# chord in it, the rest is C, G, Em, Am, F and G7, so I decree this piece to be in C!

 

I guess my question comes down to this: In the realm of music theory, what gets greater importance? The key that I'm working in, or the fact that I play a B major, and the two black keys get played?

 

The key. The B chord is an "exotic".

 

Note: I cut some corners here, lots of ifs and buts, but surprisingly little law, most is convention. Most pop-, traditional, folk and childrens' songs tend to be in one key anyway. Bottom line: to what chord or note does it all "dissolve"? That's the key. In most cases.

[vpunk]

THANK YOU!!! That definately answered my question

[Alan Shields]

but surprisingly little law, most is convention.

 

...or guidance if you wish. I'm with Eric on this. If the B chord the first of a number of chords not in C then I'd think that might indicate a key modulation. However, if the B is the only chord not in C, as seems to be the case, then I'd regard it as either a passing chord or 'colour'. Either way I wouldn't sweat it too much.

 

Alan.

[Eriksimon]

You're welcome, Vpunk!

[lookatthisguy]

Since we're speaking in the artistic forum here, the rule is simple: unless you're doing a homework assignment for a theory or composition course, follow the music. If you hear that B major amongst everything else, then go with it. And as Erik and Alan mentioned, it may be the case that it's a passing or color chord, maybe a secondary dominant, or maybe it's paving the road to a modulation…

 

Basically, if your question is about the theory behind what you've written, there are plenty minds here to help you determine that, but if you're asking if the Theory Police (and I'm claiming that as my new pop punk band name, so don't y'all even THINK about it) are going to be busting down your door for using a nondiatonic chord, don't worry about it.

 

HTH

[ViolaGhost]

Alright, come in Theory Police =) Sorry if what I'm explaining is already obvious, but I'll take it from the beginning just to make sure you can follow, just in case.

 

Simply speaking, a B-major chord in C major is a major7, or VII.

 

Let me clarify. In a major key, using only the notes in the key, the chords fall as following - we'll use C-major as an example.

 

I - unison - C major

ii - minor two - d minor

iii - minor 3 - e minor

IV - major 4 - F major

V - major 5 - G major

vi - minor 6 - a minor

vii* - diminished 7 - b diminished chord.

 

As you can see, we label major chords as uppercase (I, IV, V, etc.) and minor/diminished chords as lowercase (ii, iii, iv)

 

This holds true for all the major keys. It's always the same pattern:

 

I, ii, iii, IV, V, vi, vii*, VIII (=octave)

 

So, since our B is the seventh scale step in C-major (do count if you don't believe me,) we'd expect that the chord built on B, using the notes only in C-major, comes out diminished: B - D - F, or vii*.

 

HOWEVER, you're simply using a B-major chord. We know it's going to be some sort of 7-chord (seven, not seventh, as in "built-on-scale-step-seven"). And, because we label major chords as uppercase, it's simply a VII.

 

So, VII.

 

_______

 

THAT BEING SAID, what everyone else has said thus far is completely true. This is convention, not law, and it is extremely common to have tones that fall outside of the scale in your music. Simply put - if it sounds good, write it

 

Hope that helped!

[Arandel]

Let's say I'm working in C major. And while working in C major I play a B major chord.

Are you sure it's definitevly a C major?

If C is a key it doesn't yet mean you are working in C major. Are you using all of the white keys?

There are few modes that use C as a key and B major chord notes, perhaps you are really working in one of these modes?

If you are unfamiliar with different modes try googling "ionian, dorian"

[lookatthisguy]

Let's say I'm working in C major. And while working in C major I play a B major chord.

Are you sure it's definitevly a C major?

If C is a key it doesn't yet mean you are working in C major. Are you using all of the white keys?

There are few modes that use C as a key and B major chord notes, perhaps you are really working in one of these modes?

If you are unfamiliar with different modes try googling "ionian, dorian"

 

Theory Police?

[Eric Cardenas]

 

Theory Police?

 

[mikiber2]

let's simplify.... (in my point of view)

 

in C Major :

 

the B chord (si , re#, fa#)

 

is the V of the III...

[lookatthisguy]

let's simplify.... (in my point of view)

 

in C Major :

 

the B chord (si , re#, fa#)

 

is the V of the III...

 

Possibly, but that really comes down to context—again, convention, not law. If the ensuing progression (is that redundant?) never gets around to tonicizing mi, or at least dabbling in other chords that could imply that's the idea, then I think you'd be hard-pressed to justify that argument. Simply, we don't have enough context to say.

[playagibson]

I did time in Berklee and the best advice given to me was " trust your ears ! "

If it sounds good, it is.

Some of the greatest musicians of our time couldn't read a chart to save their lives.

Theory is important if your charting for orchestra's, but it can be a creative anchor if your a slave to it.