Rearticulation

[Baryon]

Hi,

 

I expect this is a very simple thing... I often make notes overlap slightly to simulate a nicer legato articulation, but this doesn't work when I want the same note to be rearticulated, i.e. if there are two MIDI events for the same note and the first one overlaps the second then the second one isn't triggered. Is there a way of getting this to work? Or am I doing things in some crazy fashion here?

 

Thanks! (I did search the forum and the manual)

[Eriksimon]

Hi,

 

I expect this is a very simple thing... I often make notes overlap slightly to simulate a nicer legato articulation, but this doesn't work when I want the same note to be rearticulated, i.e. if there are two MIDI events for the same note and the first one overlaps the second then the second one isn't triggered. Is there a way of getting this to work?

 

It should work if your synth is polyphonic and hasn't "used up" all its voices. What synth are we talking about?

[ski]

Hi,

 

I expect this is a very simple thing... I often make notes overlap slightly to simulate a nicer legato articulation, but this doesn't work when I want the same note to be rearticulated, i.e. if there are two MIDI events for the same note and the first one overlaps the second then the second one isn't triggered. Is there a way of getting this to work? Or am I doing things in some crazy fashion here?

 

Thanks! (I did search the forum and the manual)

 

Yes, indeed, if your instrument is set to polyphonic with at least two voices (and all orchestral instruments should be set to poly, not mono) then you should expect the behavior you seek, but only to a degree...

 

In the screenshot below you see two notes. They were both on the same pitch but I moved the second note below the first one for illustrative purposes, so for the sake of this explanation, imagine that they're both the same pitch.

 

When the 1st note ends, it's going to cut off the sound of the second note. In more technical terms, when the Note Off of the first note is generated, it will also cut off the sound of the second note.

 

The solution would be to create a duplicate of your first instrument, or, create a multi-timbral version of the instrument where you duplicate the instrument in another "slot" of your plugin. In either scenario, and assuming your main MIDI channel is ch. 1, you'd set the duplicated instrument to ch. 2 and "hocket" the repeated note on that instrument. In the duplicated-instrument/track scenario, you'd have to put those notes on a second track. (There are ways of using the Environment to have both tracks "funnel" to a single instrument, and if you want details, post back).

 

If you don't take these approaches then you will always end up with the result you're already getting. And while they may seem like a PITA, but it's really the only way to fly, as most plugins (or MIDI instruments, for that matter) do not identify a particular Note Off command with a particular Note On command. However, the approach I outlined above allows you to overcome this limitation of MIDI.

[Eriksimon]

Hi,

 

I expect this is a very simple thing... I often make notes overlap slightly to simulate a nicer legato articulation, but this doesn't work when I want the same note to be rearticulated, i.e. if there are two MIDI events for the same note and the first one overlaps the second then the second one isn't triggered. Is there a way of getting this to work? Or am I doing things in some crazy fashion here?

 

Thanks! (I did search the forum and the manual)

 

Yes, indeed, if your instrument is set to polyphonic with at least two voices (and all orchestral instruments should be set to poly, not mono) then you should expect the behavior you seek, but only to a degree...

 

In the screenshot below you see two notes. They were both on the same pitch but I moved the second note below the first one for illustrative purposes, so for the sake of this explanation, imagine that they're both the same pitch.

 

When the 1st note ends, it's going to cut off the sound of the second note. In more technical terms, when the Note Off of the first note is generated, it will also cut off the sound of the second note.

 

So Logic doesn't work with note length? I seem to remember that Cubase (OS 9 version) ignored note offs, but simply looked at the duration of a note - I thought Logic did that too, but apparently it doesn't.... feature request? for a pref setting: ignore note off, use note length instead

[ski]

Logic is strange in this way... The generally accepted notion is that Logic doesn't record Note Offs, and instead, calculates note lengths based on the time between the Note On and the Note Off. This maybe even be true. Read on...

 

Logic doesn't show us Note Off messages in the event list, but if you click the Additional Info filter (to disable it) you will see a Release Velocity value for any Note On message. So it may well be true that Logic doesn't actually record Note Off messages themselves, but it does record (or generate, by default) a Note Off velocity of zero (when transmitting $9n messages with a velocity of zero as a Note Off message). And, I believe that if Logic records MIDI from controllers that generate "true" Note Off messages ($8n) with variable release velocity then it outputs these same events upon playback in the form of "true" Note Off messages.

 

Anyway... you can easily prove (or perhaps disprove!) my analysis in my first post by penciling in two notes on the same pitch, making sure that they overlap. The second note should be long enough to be able to detect when it's been "clipped" by the first note. Key here is making sure that the sound in question has a relatively short release time. If it's a sound that rings out then the "clipped note" effect won't be as easy to notice. And, of course, the polyphony needs to be set to at least 2, preferably more (if it's a layered sound).

 

A pref setting of "use note length" would be fabulous!

[Baryon]

Thanks for your answers. That's quite disappointing. I have no idea how to set up a multi-timbral version of the instrument, but I could just make a new track, though that seems highly inelegant.

 

It was EXS24, as it happens.

 

Perhaps the fundamental issue is that I find the attack on most of the orchestral EXS24 sampled instruments to be quite slow, even at the shortest setting. Perhaps there's another way around it?

[ski]

The most elegant approach is to do the multi-timbral thing, and you can create a multi-timbral instance of EXS by duplicating all of the groups (and zones) and assigning the groups to different MIDI channels (you'll have to save that instrument separately if you want to retain the original). I don't have time to outline that procedure right now for duplicating the groups & zones, but if you can figure it out, at least that way you can keep all of your notes on one track, and just change the MIDI channels to suit the repeated notes. One other benefit of this is that all front-panel settings for an EXS sound are "global" for all zones, regardless of MIDI channel, and in this way you'll have a consistent sound from note to note.

 

As far as attack times go, yes, a lot of the EXS stock stuff is "mushy".

[camillo jr]

Baryon, another solution might be to automate the release envelope of your sound - more release when you are in Legato mode. This is pretty easy to do and it doesn't take much extra release, just enough to slur the note ends into the next note. And there's also Force Legato, to make the end of your selected legato notes butt up against the start of the next note, which won't cause any note off problems:

 

Piano Roll > Functions > Note Events > Force Legato

 

For certain sounds, I find this is enough on it's own, given a little bit of release envelope plus the right reverb.

[Baryon]

OK, that's good advice. Thanks for your help.

[camillo jr]

Regarding the slow attacks of the Logic instruments, there is lots that can be done if you look at the instrument as raw material and not a one size fits all solution. You can use the modulation matrix at the bottom of the EXS GUI to make volume (relative volume) controlled by the mod wheel and the sample start time controlled with velocity, which will definitely help with the slushy attacks. For this, if you set the slider in that matrix cell high enough, you'll get a pretty short attack at all but the softest velocities. You'll probably have to soften the amp attack (Envelope 2) a bit so the start isn't too clicky.

 

There's also a good tutorial here on creating modwheel controlled crossfades in multisampled instuments.

 

And more here on mod controlled filter.

 

With the multisampled instruments I like to use a combination of the mod wheel controlled xfades + relative volume. Very expressive.