Automating On/off buttons

[David Nahmani]

These comments were split from another thread that was going off topic. . . : we are discussing the behavior of on/off type buttons (bypass, mute, etc...) with track automation in Logic.

 

Now, with the hi cut button still on, you enable automation on the track (Latch mode) and play the track. Then you click the hi cut button again, turning it off. By doing that, you're telling Logic that the button is to be turned off at that point in the track, but being that it's the very first action you made on this button while automation was writing, Logic records "hi cut off" from the beginning of the track up to that point.

Hmmm no, it should write the button as "hi cut on" from the beginning of the track up to that point, then "hi cut off" from the location where you clicked the button to turn it off.

[ski]

I'll double-check this action later, but I'm pretty sure that what I described has been my experience. [EDIT: See below] Edited June 21, 2012 by ski

[David Nahmani]

That's what I'd LOVE it to do, but it doesn't always do this. I'll double-check this action later, but I'm pretty sure that what I described has been my experience.

I've always had the opposite experience, the one I just described. Just tried it and I could confirm it again. If you have a minute give it a quick try and let us know? In any case if you get the behavior you describe then it's a bug, not the normal behavior you usually see in Logic.

[ski]

If you have a minute give it a quick try and let us know? In any case if you get the behavior you describe then it's a bug, not the normal behavior you usually see in Logic.

 

Sure, will do.

 

There have been many times when I've had to go in and tell Logic that I wanted a certain button to start out in (say) bypass after I wrote automation to un-bypass it. But for sure, I'll double-check the behavior later today.

[ski]

I just did some tests. The results definitely vary! For sure, Touch mode is highly problematic. I'll post screenshots later, but for now, and to cut to the chase, the most sure-fire way to make sure you get the results you want is to have a track in Latch mode.

[David Nahmani]

Ok but we were discussing the latch mode here, not the touch mode:

 

Now, with the hi cut button still on, you enable automation on the track (Latch mode) and play the track. Then you click the hi cut button again, turning it off. By doing that, you're telling Logic that the button is to be turned off at that point in the track, but being that it's the very first action you made on this button while automation was writing, Logic records "hi cut off" from the beginning of the track up to that point.

Hmmm no, it should write the button as "hi cut on" from the beginning of the track up to that point, then "hi cut off" from the location where you clicked the button to turn it off.

 

I would never expect the Touch mode to work properly for an on/off switch - the Touch mode was designed for continuous controllers or momentary switches, not for on/off type switches.

[ski]

Not trying to confuse the issue, but the OP didn't state if he's using touch or latch. With touch mode he's going to experience seemingly random turning off of CERTAIN buttons in Logic. And the action of certain buttons are not exactly the same with respect to Touch and Latch.

 

The behavior of this button when writing automation is different from other buttons in Logic such as a channel strip's mute button. Case in point, starting with the action of writing Mute automation...

 

Put an audio channel in Touch mode and make sure that mute automation is being displayed in the track.

Run the track, click and HOLD the mute button. You will see mute automation written to the track, but within 2 seconds, even as you're holding down the mute button, automation will automatically write UNmute to the track. Meanwhile, the mute button remains highlighted (light blue) as though mute were still engaged. Circled in red here is where Logic wrote the UNmute automation on its own while I was still holding down the mute button.

Now, compare this to the channel EQ's hi cut button, performing identical actions in Touch mode:

 

Starting with the hi cut button off, run the track. Now click and HOLD the hi cut button. As long as you continue to hold down that button, Logic will write and then maintain the ON state for the button. It will not automatically cause the button to turn off after 2 seconds as it does with the Mute button (and other buttons in Logic).

 

In this screenshot you see the results of my clicking/holding the button in Touch mode. What you see are all manual moves on my part. In Touch mode.

Edited June 21, 2012 by ski

[David Nahmani]

Like I said, the touch mode is not a mode designed to automate on/off type switches so I'm not surprised you're getting all sorts of unexpected behaviors. A mute button, on/off button, or bypass button is not supposed to be held on - it does not behave as a momentary switch. So I'm not sure why you'd even try to use the touch mode to automate those?

[ski]

I can think of a million reasons for wanting to treat the mute button as a momentary switch. That aside, I'm surprised that the hi cut button is designed so that it can act as a momentary switch under Touch mode.

 

I think the bigger question here is this: why does Logic decide that after 2 seconds it's going to write automation in Touch mode all by itself in some cases and not others? It doesn't happen with faders or (as seen here) with the hi cut switch, but it does with Mute or Bypass switches on channel strips and plugins, respectively.

[David Nahmani]

I can think of a million reasons for wanting to treat the mute button as a momentary switch.

Oh for wanting them to behave that way? Yes, me too, for sure. But it's funny. You look at things from the angle of what you want. I look at things from the angle of how they work and how I can use them. Two different angles. The mute buttons, bypass buttons and EQ on/off buttons are not momentary switches, so I'm not expecting them to behave that way, and I'm not even going to expect them to behave properly in touch mode.

[ski]

Like I said, the touch mode is not a mode designed to automate on/off type switches so I'm not surprised you're getting all sorts of unexpected behaviors.

 

But what I've shown here is that some buttons (like hi cut) work perfectly fine in touch mode, and Logic doesn't automatically write in automation for you after you operate them. What I've tried to demonstrate is that button behavior in Logic is not consistent with respect to automation modes Touch or Latch. It wasn't until this thread that I even thought to investigate how or if the hi cut button might have acted differently than other buttons. But as I've shown, it does.