Final Mixing Tips?

[bradywurtz]

I'm working with a friend of mine on making a short album, and we've got at least 7 songs we've been working on for the last year (we take our time, plus i'm not the best at this, it's all just for fun!)

 

but now i'm at the mixing stage.

 

Ive left all my individual track meters at '0', and i've EQ'ed each individual track, making sure my bass and drums were the only one's with anything below 200-500, and i've added compressors to a few tracks as well to help control the loudness and dynamic ranges of the vocals and certain instruments. I've even panned and automated a few tracks to not have it be as cluttered as possible.

 

It all sounds pretty good coming out of my studio monitor speakers (KRK Systems Rokit 5), but when i look at my 'Output' track, i'm peaking up to 6.0. I've tried adding a limiter on the Output track and setting it to '0db' but sometimes that makes the track sound like it's all being pushed down at certain spots.

 

What tips are there or what articles are out there that i can read to learn more about this final stage of the mixing process?

 

I've been using editing software for years now just as a fun hobby so i'm not extremely skilled at this but i love learning it

[rhys]

Well firstly a limiter is not a volume control so you shouldn't be using it because everything is too loud, a limiter is used to well "limit" the peaks of a given wave form. What you can hear being pushed down is the peaks and the dynamics being squashed to hell and back.

 

Basically you need to turn down all of your tracks, then forget about them being on 0db they don't have to hit 0db infact they shouldn't.

 

(well infact you can go over in the mixer of logic because it has a load of extra headroom but I won't go into that, for the sake of learning at the moment just pretend you can never go over 0db anywhere in the mixer)

 

Then mix them all together so they sound right. You don't even want your loudest track to be touching 0db, hopefully after all this the output channel will not be as loud and won't be clipping. If it is all is not lost you can use the gain plugin on your output channel to bring it down some more.

 

Note the gain plugin can be used to bring down an overly loud channel too but beware to put it before any plugins as these can be clipped just like the output channel.

 

Once this is a sensible level now you can add things like a limiter etc but I really wouldn't until you fully understand what a limiter does to the audio.

 

I can't find any good articles for very basic stuff as from what I remember when I was trying to find all this stuff out for myself I found myself going round in circles with information from the internet, be aware that stuff is very diluted on the net. Your best bet is books in my opinion. If anyone knows any good stuff please add it. Actually an exception will be soundonsound articles

 

Good books

Recording and production techniques by Paul White oldy but goody

 

Basic Mixing Techniques by Paul White oldy but goody

 

 

Apple Pro Training Series: Logic Pro 9 and Logic Express 9 ( I can't not put this in there lol) this is more for using logic, not so much mixing etc

 

I won't recommend any more books as these are the only books I actually have, the rest of the stuff I have learnt have come from this forum, gearslutz), attending seminars (paul white again (london music expos) ) sound on sound magazine (paul white actually writes for sos), future music magazine.

 

Theres loads of more advanced stuff like Pensados place, but worry about all that when you got this lot locked down

 

Be careful of youtube tutorials, they are not all bad but some really do contain very bad advice and you will just go around in circles and also be careful of any advice that sounds like a one size fits all kind of thing, its usually bulls$$t. Always check your source

[Eriksimon]

Quick fix: put a Gain plugin on your output channel strip and lower the gain until the channel strip meter peaks under 0.0 dB.

[David Nahmani]

Ive left all my individual track meters at '0'

Do you mean your track faders? There's no reason to leave them at zero: they are there to allow you to balance the relative level of your instruments: use them! Use your ears, and your ears only to determine which instruments should come up and which ones should come down, and use the volume faders to that effect.

 

i've EQ'ed each individual track, making sure my bass and drums were the only one's with anything below 200-500

That's WAY too drastic. You are probably ruining the sound of all your tracks by cutting so much low frequencies out of them. You shouldn't need to cut that much to make space for the kick and bass.

 

i've added compressors to a few tracks as well to help control the loudness and dynamic ranges of the vocals and certain instruments. I've even panned and automated a few tracks to not have it be as cluttered as possible.

That sounds like a good approach.

 

It all sounds pretty good coming out of my studio monitor speakers (KRK Systems Rokit 5), but when i look at my 'Output' track, i'm peaking up to 6.0.

Turn down the volume of your output track with its volume fader until it no longer clips.

[rhys]

Won't simply bringing the output down not actually fix anything because the levels going to that output won't be appropriate for correctly setting certain plugins for example a compressor could be in gain reduction before he's even tweaked the threshold. He won't have the correct input gain, he will of coarse if he uses a gain plug as I mentioned. Isn't it better to get it right from the start, that's a relatively small track count. I would pull all the faders down and start again there's no need for a quick fix.

[David Nahmani]

Won't simply bringing the output down not actually fix anything because the levels going to that output won't be appropriate for correctly setting certain plugins for example a compressor could be in gain reduction before he's even tweaked the threshold.

That's actually the other way around: IF he already used a compressor, then changing the gain before that compressor will mean the compressor will no longer work as it did before, and the compressor threshold will have to be readjusted accordingly to get the same sound as before. Whereas changing the gain after that compressor (which is what the volume fader on the output channel strip does) will not affect the way the compressor was working, so the sound stays the same, only the volume is affected.

 

If a compressor wasn't used prior to changing the gain, then it doesn't matter which method is used.

[rhys]

Yes, I get what your saying in the context of maybe retaining what he already has but as good practice goes he may find himself with a compressor rendered in operable like this one. If you get me

 

 

Obviously he can use a gain plug as mentioned but surely its better to have a good structure than to have gain plugins everywhere.

[David Nahmani]

If you get me

I get you. My compressor threshold is usually closer to -20 dB so that's rarely an issue. But whatever works for your workflow.

[rhys]

If you get me

I get you. My compressor threshold is usually closer to -20 dB so that's rarely an issue. But whatever works for your workflow.

 

Exactly because you have less gain going into the compressor right? its never an issue for me either because my input is probably around that mark too give or take and thats what gives you a decent resolution on your threshold.

 

Im simply stating why its better for the op to have a better structure to begin with. Not trying to be argumentative, I'm just clarifying it in my head too in a way

[David Nahmani]

Not trying to be argumentative, I'm just clarifying it in my head too in a way

Yeah yeah no problem and you're right in fact if you want to take this further you should be working with lower levels to start with, so that there shouldn't be a need for either a gain plug-in or lowering the stereo output fader at all. So for the OP, the best solution possible is actually to take all your tracks and instruments faders down until the Stereo Out doesn't go any higher than say -6 dB FS.

[bradywurtz]

Ok, so originally i was leaving my faders for each track at '0' and i was adjusting the 'gain' in my 'compressor' to adjust the volume of each track. i've now learned that that doesn't make much sense and is wrong. So i corrected the error and i have now adjusted the volume of each track with my faders instead to balance out the levels of each track.

 

i've made sure tracks i want to be louder than others are louder and the quieter tracks are quieter. i've also let the whole song play through once so i could see how high each individual track was peaking, then i actually lowered every tracks fader the amount of dB's the highest peak was, so that none of them were peaking, and they were all still evenly balanced.

 

however, after doing this, now my whole song sounds very low and doesn't have as much pop or energy as it had before. and even though all my tracks are not peaking now, my final 'output' track is still peaking at 5.0 dB's.

 

Idk what to do anymore to get a good mix out of this. it seems like the tips i'm getting are not quiet doing the trick for me, unless i'm doing something wrong here.

 

I've even lowered the fader on the 'output' track to make sure it wasn't peaking. obviously this has now made my song very low in volume. i know it's highest peak is now at '0' but at the cost of making everything way to quiet

[David Nahmani]

however, after doing this, now my whole song sounds very low and doesn't have as much pop or energy as it had before. and even though all my tracks are not peaking now, my final 'output' track is still peaking at 5.0 dB's.

You can't peak at + 5.0 dB FS in digital. The maximum level is 0 dB FS. Do you mean -5 dB FS? If that's what you mean, then raise your level by 5 dB to bring it to 0 dB FS.

 

Idk what to do anymore to get a good mix out of this. it seems like the tips i'm getting are not quiet doing the trick for me, unless i'm doing something wrong here.

That's because you're confusing two things:

1) Proper mixing level.

2) Perceived loudness.

 

Of course, if you mix liberally in the red, with your mix completely clipped, it's going to sound loud and powerful. Now we're showing you how to user proper levels, and you feel it now sounds weak. It's completely normal and understandable, but it's still the right thing to do. To get a good perceived level while maintaining proper mixing levels takes years, and is not something as simple as adjusting a fader or using a plug-in. The orchestration, instrumentation, arrangement, composition, mixing all come in to play, and then a good professional mastering job will take a good mix even higher up.

 

You're now ready to read this:

 

Guide to Levels in Digital Audio

 

PS: Now of course you could bypass the years of learning, the proper levels, the proper way to do it, and simply distort the S(^@# out of your mix by pushing everything in the red to get it to sound loud. That's another option, and one that, I regret having to say, I've seen done on more than one commercial mix. Just don't be surprised when your whole mix starts sounding like doodoo. IMO not the right way to go, but to each their own.

[bradywurtz]

First off, i downloaded that PDF and I will be reading it and rereading it i'm sure! Thanks!

 

Secondly, i can understand that it's the right way to do it, because it seems like it shouldn't be an easy fix or there wouldn't be any skill to it. If this is the right way to do it and it still brings down the overall volume of everything and the power of everything, is that where i need to keep messing with the compressor on each individual track and then leveling that track out to keep trying to get the final sound to sound louder or more powerful?

 

Also, i think i mean peaking on the 'output' track. it's in the red and it says 5.0 on it. I took a screen shot of it, i didn't bother listening to it the whole song all the way through to get to where it peaked at 5.0 but i still got it when it was peaking.

 

What would you suggest to do at this point? should i lower the fader on the 'output' track? or should i just use a limiter on it?

[David Nahmani]

You're clipping your mix by 5 dB. So your mix is still peaking at 0 dB FS (because it cannot go any higher) but you're clipping your waveform to get the level you want. That's a very drastic measure, and not the most elegant way to work.

 

should i lower the fader on the 'output' track? or should i just use a limiter on it?

A limiter will change the sound, adding perceived volume AND distortion (and it will "make the track sound like it's all being pushed down at certain spots" as you said yourself.). A fader will change the volume, not the sound.

 

For perceived loudness, you can go back to each individual tracks and compressors, sure, you can even add a compressor and a limiter on the stereo output, but there's more to it than that. Here's a great article on the topic:

 

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/music-computers/468170-loudness-when-producing-mixing-tips.html

[redlogic]

Get your gain staging right.

 

Balance/mix it with the faders (not the controls of the compressor).

 

Don't clip the Stereo Out.

 

Turn your speakers up...

 

 

and feel the power come back!

[Kneex]

Lots of good tips in the thread so far..

 

One thing I can throw in is to avoid sticking to certain "rules," like your EQ example. You'll learn tricks how to handle situations that come up, but the most important thing is to get very familiar with your monitors, and then learn to trust your ear more than the meters jumping up and down and the numbers on the screen. If the kick sounds fine, don't worry about cutting everything.

 

And like the above poster said, turn up the output on your speakers if it's sounding too quiet rather than boost the signal until it's clipping and distorted. I like to bounce everything once I have a good mix, then work with that file by itself to get the loudness up if needed.

 

Don't get too frustrated --they have professional schools just for mixing/mastering after all. It takes a bit of practice / experimentation to feel comfortable with it, and it definitely needs to be approached from a different mindset than the one you had when you wrote and recorded the tracks.

[bradywurtz]

ok so i'm working on another song right now that has about 17 tracks. since there are more, now i have to lower the volume for all of them even more because it's peaking so loud on the final output. so basically all my tracks faders are down to like 19. the master fader is still set to 0 but i lowered all my faders for all my other tracks till i got a good level sound out of everything, then i had to lower them all at the same time to make sure they didn't peak, and now my final output is slightly lower than '0' but almost at '0', but it seems like the song is even quieter than my last song i worked on with less tracks.

 

it's looking like the more tracks i add in together, the quieter my song ends up being, just to make sure nothing is peaking.

 

i know you guys keep saying 'that's why there's a school for this', but does that mean i will never know? i mean at least give me some kind of direction for where to start working on this to get it right even if it takes me forever. i mean based off this all i know i can do is just keep lowering volumes until my song is so quiet.

 

i've tried bouncing my songs, and since i have them not peaking now, they still sound so quiet compared to professional CD's i have. i'll listen to them in my car and for a professional CD i've got my volume in my car at about 25 or 30. when i play my CD, i have the volume at about 62. Something is way off

[rhys]

it's looking like the more tracks i add in together, the quieter my song ends up being, just to make sure nothing is peaking.

 

 

This is what happens, there is no way to get completly around it. How you try to maximise what you can fit in there is down to your mix. A kick and a bass is a good example, they both hit at similar frequencies so in order to get them to get along together you need to try and not let them happen at the same time. If they have to happen at the same time then something has to give, there is no way around it. Either the bass will have to be higher than the kick or vica versa or you can use any number of side chain techniques to trick the listener into thinking that the both hit at a similar frequency at the same time. But they physically cannot perform well when they actually take up the same sonic space.

 

On the other hand if you have a double bass playing along and a flute then you are not going to get many issues mix wise and end volume wise because they are taking up a completely different area of the sonic spectrum.

 

Your volume is always compromised when there is an abundance of frequencies in a single area but that doesn't mean you should cut them out completely, you should just tease them together and thats where the art bit comes in because if we relied totally on science then we would just cut massive chunks out with EQ and not care for the resulting sound.

 

The volume is not everything, try and make it sound as good as possible without a care for the end volume, try not to over clutter your tracks and the end product will sound a lot better. When you have more experience you will find ways to make your mixes louder. Its not one trick its more like a little bit of this here and a little bit of this there and those little bits you will pick up. Nobody can tell you what those little bits are because they are unique to your music and work flow.

 

What we can say is it will happen if you follow the advice given and stop worrying about it being loud. I found all this black art talk a little confusing too, Im an engineer by trade (not an audio engineer) so to me everything has a clear and ordered way of doing something so I was always looking for a set process. What I have found with this is you have to follow the very basics before you find your own process.

[steveo12ax7]

 

i've tried bouncing my songs, and since i have them not peaking now, they still sound so quiet compared to professional CD's i have. i'll listen to them in my car and for a professional CD i've got my volume in my car at about 25 or 30. when i play my CD, i have the volume at about 62. Something is way off

 

For what its worth, as a general rule, nothing that comes out of Logic or any other DAW will be (or should be) as loud as a commercially mastered CD. The process of mixing that you're doing right now is mainly about balancing and sculpting the interactions between all of the tracks and making it sound coherent. Adding volume is the primary purpose of mastering, which is a different process than mixing. You can get your mixes hotter by using proper gain staging and pushing certain instruments or passages with compression and EQ and things like that (affecting "perceived loudness" as has been talked about above), but this is an artistic decision involving compromise in some areas to give more punch to other areas; it isn't simply a matter of levels or plugins. Experience helps for things like deciding how to get more punch and impact by allowing some tracks to dominate more than others, or using compression to let those tracks dominate in different ways/times. All of those decisions affect how loud your mix feels, but leave it to mastering to deal with how loud it actually sounds in comparison to commercial CDs. You can master your own mixes too, but I find it helps to think of it as a separate process from mixing.

 

My 2c as a relative newbie.

[bradywurtz]

Ok, so i've been working with the project and taking everyone's advice into consideration and i think i'm starting to get it.

 

i got my EQ'ing leveled out, making sure i wasn't stepping on any other tracks EQ to much on the more powerful tracks. I'm still going to have to have some time really learning and understanding compressors.

 

but i balanced the project out, then got it low enough not to peak to much (it still peaked on the master track a little bit, but i didn't do anything to it and i didn't add any effects or plug in's to the track).

 

Then i bounced it as a 24bit aiff file. then reimported it into another new project file. did a little TINY EQ'ing to it. not much at all. then added a compressor and limiter just to boost the volume a tad and bring it down, and made sure it wasn't to harsh on bringing down the loudness on the compressor.

 

then i bounced an .mp3 from that just to send on here to see what you guys think if you get the chance to listen to it and let me know if you can hear any problems with it or give me any kind of feedback at all on what might be useful

 

http://soundcloud.com/bradywurtz/raiseyoureyes090912

[redlogic]

i've tried bouncing my songs, and since i have them not peaking now, they still sound so quiet compared to professional CD's i have. i'll listen to them in my car and for a professional CD i've got my volume in my car at about 25 or 30. when i play my CD, i have the volume at about 62. Something is way off

Something is not way off.

That's just how it is.

 

Professional CDs have been recorded, mixed and mastered - professionally.

Most are mastered LOUD to compete with all the other LOUD CDs out there.

LOUDNESS WAR

 

When comparing your mix against commercial CDs, you need to lower the fader of the commercial track until it's the same apparent volume as your mix. Then, you can make a truly meaningful comparison of EQ, balance, etc.

[rhys]

My personal opinion on the mix on that track is that it really isn't that bad, I really can't see why you are getting so hung up on how loud it is compared to other music. I do think at 3.00 when that rock guitar comes in that the mix is a little off there. I think the guitar is a little too mid rangy, it seems to take over in that area. I can't comment on how I would fix that as I don't know whether it was recorded like it or did you boost that area?

[bradywurtz]

well i was getting hung up on it, after reading some tips from this forum here i've been getting better at it! it was a lot lower than this before, it's starting to sound a lot better thanks to everyone!

 

and yea, i tried fading those guitars in when they come in around that part but i guess i need to fad them in a little easier maybe.

 

and i can totally see where they're to mid range as well. might try messing with the EQ on those to get that straightened out.

 

i actually had to record the guitars straight in with my interface and just used apple's built in amps to get a good sound, so i can still mess with them a little bit.

 

thanks for the feedback!

[rhys]

and i can totally see where they're to mid range as well. might try messing with the EQ on those to get that straightened out.

 

If you take a look at the EQ and you see a crazy boost in that area that may be the problem. It may be worth taking that boost out all together and then trying it with fresh ears. If its the amp sim causing it, it may be worth choosing a different preset/setting rather than try to EQ it how you want it.

 

Its always better to get the sound you want as early in the chain as possible. Which in turn will mean you need to EQ less. A/B it though and decide for yourself, don't make any decisions just because a guy on a forum said, I'm just saying what I would do

[bradywurtz]

Still working on the mixing of the rest of the songs but wanted to say thanks to everyone for the feedback! this has been a huge help!

[juniornard]

I've suffered a great deal with the same issues as far as creating a right mix. I used to use my Rokit 5's before and it was a constant game of hit or miss. I finally upgraded to Yamaha HS80M. I will say it has made such a great difference in what comes out. I think if you use the good information in this thread and combined with hardware upgrade your battle will be won.