hardware synth vs soft synth

[Dr.Frank]

Hi lister got a quick one here.

 

For the live performer here do you think that hardware synth are dead ot there is still room for them.

Are we getting better audio quality in a well process soft synth.

I am talking more keyboard oriented like Triton/Oasys/Fantom and

a lots of noise about the new motif XS.

i am also talking about recording midi as audio and then process the audio track vs a soft instr. It is a whole lot easier that way as well.

Can a Nord C1or Hammond XK3 or Korg CX3 be much better than a Tone wheel organ or B4II (NI).

I know there is a cost factor but i am adressing sound quality, maybe vs cost also.

 

Thanks

Great source of knowledge in this forum.

 

Frank

[relaxnfade]

Well, being experienced in both, the quality of softsynths is fantastic. It's not a tactile deal, and you can loose some of the warmth at times, but that can always be compensated quite easily. There are pros and cons either way, but it sure is handy to have everything built in at your disposal.

[Andy M.]

For me, live playing requires hardwearing hardware. I'm not in the big league and don't have an army of highly paid, cotton gloved keyboard techs setting up and breaking down my rig when I gig. Without someone like that to look after the gear, I'd be petrified of something getting smashed. There's NO WAY I'd take this puny MacBook Pro out to the park even, let alone a crowded gig where I will no doubt sink a couple of beers (after the show of course).

 

Don't get me wrong, I love software synths. I think these days the sound quality is good and they're very convenient. Over the years I have sold a lot of my older instruments - a decision I now regret - and these days my gigging rig is only a Kurzweil K2500 and a Proteus 2000. But with those two devices I've got everything covered, and the sound quality cannot be beaten IMO. Furthermore, they are very rugged and hardwearing... I won't tempt fate by saying they are 100% reliable, but so far they have been... Oops.

 

8)

[bryla]

when we talk about triton/oasys/cx3/motif I think soft-synths are WAY better!

When we talk about b3/moog voyager/fender rhodes soft-synths are WAY behind....

 

Still sounding pretty good, but this is my priority:

Electronic and analog hardware

software

digital hardware

[Jope]

I jumped from Logic2.x (MIDI only) to Logic Express 6 two or three years ago and thought I would use it mostly for MIDI and recording and mixing the output signals from my synthesizers (Roland JX-3P, a digitally controlled analog synth which I had formerly developped an upgrade for, Yamaha DX7II, a Casio FZ-1 sampler, AKAI R-100 Drum machine, Roland SE-1 String expander), so I went for many MIDI outputs and many analog inputs... Well, that was in those days.

Then I discovered Logic Express' soft synths one by one, plus you could try the Pro synths for one month, then I upgraded to LP7... And some day I did not know anymore what I had to have these bulky hardware synthesizers for in my little room.

Maybe you need how the hardware synthesizers look and feel for inspiration, I won't laugh at anybody because of this... But for the sound - in my opinion: No.

[gsilbers]

softsynths are wayy better than the keyboards u mentioned. triton and fantom suck really bad IMO. they are sample playback synths that really on keeping quality low to provide space for them. Oasys on the other hands made that jump to have good quality samples at a big big expensive. 8k if im not wonrg.

 

but those keyboards are good for live situations though which dont require much quality in sound and deliver desent perfoamce with its knoeb control etc.

 

in the other hand, softsynths like kontakt and giga will give realistic samples playbacks of instruments recorded with the highest presiton and quality.

fantom and triton have no match against a library like the EXS and VSL.

 

then if u are talking synths like in substractive/fm and others then hardware synths above 300-500 range are better sounding IMO. something like the nord modular or the virus TI are just amazing but at the same time are hybrid softsynths also.

 

on the side of softsynth u can have 2 or 3 synth playing together at the same time which will make a fatter sound than a hardware synth.

 

for me the best ideal setu would be lots of software sytnth on a laptop with ableton live and several keyboard controllers to trigger different sounds and samples. Live has the best MIDI perfomance for live situations. its fast access midi automations is like 100 times faster than logic and something I really want for logic in the next upgrade.

 

triton and fantom have more of a hiphop quality to them because u dont want it to sound crisp and good, u want rawish, gritty etc which for hiphop makes sense due to its history or poor neiborhoods and pawnshops. (of course that has changed now but its core sound not)

[OddTime]

Hi! first post for me here...

 

One advantage I see in hardware synths is that in 10 years, they'll still work. VI's probably won't have the same longevity. Resale value on an old working synth will be pretty good too (they'd be vintage!). An old softsynth that won't run on the systems 10 years from now will probably have a near zero resale value. So that is a consideration (at least for me) when deciding where to spend the money. Same goes for plug-ins.

[Justin-Ch]

.............Resale value on an old working synth will be pretty good too (they'd be vintage!)............

 

I wouldn't count on that happening. It is getting harder & harder to even give away a lot of hardware from the late '80s & '90s. Just look at how many EMU modules are on eBay with zero bids. Even slightly older things that are popular in certain genres of music, like Roland Junos for deep house, have not increased & in many cases have decreased in second hand value over the last 10 years.

Unless it is something that is already vintage now, with a few exceptions I doubt things like the Access Virus or the Nords are ever going to be sought after the way an old Moog or Arp is.

I still use a lot of hardware but that is partly because I'm on a single processor G4 so don't have the power to use things like the NI or Arturia Prophet 5 emulations. I've also go some things that work pretty well with the OSX beta of eMagic's SoundDiver or other software editor/librarians so software has really increased the potential of these otherwise fairly awkward to program synths. But also I couldn't get enough money from selling the music hardware to really upgrade my computer hardware & software to replace it all.

[gsilbers]

.............Resale value on an old working synth will be pretty good too (they'd be vintage!)............

 

I wouldn't count on that happening. It is getting harder & harder to even give away a lot of hardware from the late '80s & '90s. Just look at how many EMU modules are on eBay with zero bids. Even slightly older things that are popular in certain genres of music, like Roland Junos for deep house, have not increased & in many cases have decreased in second hand value over the last 10 years.

Unless it is something that is already vintage now, with a few exceptions I doubt things like the Access Virus or the Nords are ever going to be sought after the way an old Moog or Arp is.

I still use a lot of hardware but that is partly because I'm on a single processor G4 so don't have the power to use things like the NI or Arturia Prophet 5 emulations. I've also go some things that work pretty well with the OSX beta of eMagic's SoundDiver or other software editor/librarians so software has really increased the potential of these otherwise fairly awkward to program synths. But also I couldn't get enough money from selling the music hardware to really upgrade my computer hardware & software to replace it all.

 

 

 

ditto on your opinion

 

and

 

u should try this instead of sound diver

 

 

http://www.squest.com/Windows/MidiQuestXL/MidiQuest-XLFeatures.html

 

and

 

http://www.rekonaudio.com/index.php

[Dr.Frank]

Hey guys thanks for the good post. keep bring it on.

 

 

Frank

[adrian.roberts]

In a live situation, Hardware synths are great because most of the time you have all of your favorite patches saved and switch through them without any delay time. In most cases you can count on your hardware being very reliable, and fast, Computer latency is not an issue. For me, Soft synths are very hard to beat in the studio realm because of the editing capabilities that are built into the synths and your host app. I have to meet deadlines on a regular basis, and I can always count on my Logic synths and third party Plugins to have the right sound that I need with just a few tweaks, and I don't have to worry about setting up a Multi Instrument in the environment, or having to deal with Midi latency. Since i've incorporated soft synths into my studio, my productivity has increased quite a bit. To sum it all up, I find myself working more with software synths than anything else now for those reasons, but I still have a few hardware Pieces that I will never get rid of and will always find a use for in my productions. The Alesis A6 Andromeda, and the Studio Electronics SE1X are a few of my favorites.

 

Cheers,

 

-A

[nikkik]

If you can find a softsynth with a better Leslie than the Nord C1, I would love to hear it. If B4II is king in softsynth land, then I would have to laugh. The overdrive/distorion/cab emulation is grainy and thin IMO. Absolutely horrible. The original B4 plug-in was much better, but the Nord C1..or even the Electro...kills it.

 

A real Rhodes or Wurly or similar- same deal. While there are some truly fine software models/sample libraries, these guys really deserve to be the real thing when possible. The pysical feel alone is worth it. But, upkeep and such- lol! Yeah, maybe that emulation aint to bad after all!

 

Synthesizers...a bit different. If you compare a real CS-80 to the Arturia, the real thing wins everytime. But, rarity and upkeep on this monster once again make the softsynth a decent enough tradeoff I think. You must remember- hardware synths have analogue components, with the digitally based ones having old school DAC's in them. The smear and distortion from these are part of the sound.

 

Samplers. Well, shy of trying to emulate, say, an Emulator I or an Akai S900 or some other older piece, the soft-sampler (actually, sample playback software in 99% of them) obviously wins.

 

Software has alot of advantages, obviously. The feel and the "sound" of the hardware units can outweigh that sometimes. But, you also have things like Sculpture and Absynth...but then you get V-Synth and Oasys with the Karma stuff in it. The Oasys workstation is one helluva piece! I would LOVE to have a nice, fully-loaded 88 weighted version. Wish I could afford even a V-Synth rack. But, there are too many other places to spend first each month.

 

Rough decisions, if faced with them. But, as one poster pointed out: the hardware will still work with your DAW despite any OS and app upgrades. Softsynths and samplers? Hmmm...'fraid not..... But, I also hate that I paid a hefty price for a K2500R many, many years ago, and now can only dream of seeing more than $500 for it. And it has been babied. Very sad...

[bryla]

yeah right, the C1 is the great organ! try a real hammond and every Clavia product will disappoint you.

[fader8]

Hmmm...'fraid not..... But, I also hate that I paid a hefty price for a K2500R many, many years ago, and now can only dream of seeing more than $500 for it. And it has been babied. Very sad...

 

Sorry to hear that Nikki. I've had my K2500RS w/kdfx for years and it's certainly paid for itself many times over. There are still things it can do and sounds it can make that no softsynth can touch. I don't worry about its resale value as I'd never part with it anyway.

 

What I find very interesting is that even though computers are getting so much more powerful, there's still a trend towards offloading audio processing to external hardware. I like this; I love my Kyma system and my UAD's. Actually, now that old man Kurzweil is back with Kurzweil Music Systems, I'm hoping we see some kind of new K series that is a hybridized computer control/external hardware beast. Ah, but I dream . . .

[prospect]

It all comes down to personal preference.

 

For simpler stuff/playing with a band. A hardware synth is easier and more convinient to work with.

 

For more keys/sample based performances (not much emphasis on the band) soft synths/samplers are the way to go. More sounds, more flexibility.

 

Hardware synths aren't going anywhere for a long time.

 

Again.

It all comes down to personal preference.

[nickweston]

I see no mention of feel in this discussion....

 

hardware synths still have the edge on this, as latency in almost every system corrupts the feel and connection to the instrument.

 

I use a Yamaha S90ES and absolutely love it. That being said, I own about 30 plugin synths on top of the stock Logic Pro instruments.

 

but in a live situation, the instant patch change and minute MIDI latency trumps the software synth load times and Core Audio latency.

 

funny about opinions, we demo'ed the Nord Electro and I was NOT knocked out by the Leslie effect! We chose the Logic EVB3 for our tour and used it on both keyboard rigs. It beat everything else in a blindfold test...the electro sounded fake to me (but then I own two cherry B3s connected to stereo Leslies, so I'm spoiled!).

 

I'm setting up a rig for a live concert next month, using a hybrid of the S90ES and my MBPro running Logic. The best of both worlds!

[nikkik]

yeah right, the C1 is the great organ! try a real hammond and every Clavia product will disappoint you.

 

It was a direct reference to the post calling out the C1 (and other organ modellers in hardware form) vs B4, et al. The rest of my goes on to profess my preference of "the real thing" over emulations. Sorry it was done in a complicated manner.

[kongwee]

When come to sound designing, I see no single soft synth package as powerful as the first generation of Karma,Motif or Fantom.

[toonscribe]

ditto on your opinion

 

and

 

u should try this instead of sound diver

 

 

http://www.squest.com/Windows/MidiQuestXL/MidiQuest-XLFeatures.html

 

 

My advice is to avoid Midiquest like the plague.

 

Before I buying it I wrote to them asking if it would work as a plug-in with Logic. They ASSURED me I would have no problem -- IF if I bought the fXpansion VST to AU wrapper.

 

So -- I bought the 2 programs -- and spent many frustrating hours trying to get it to work and figure out what I was doing wrong. THEN the Midiquest people told me "Ooops, we got bad info from fXpasnion. It WON'T work as a plug in with Logic." Obviously they had not tested it.

 

To add insult to injury they refused even to respond to the further Emails I sent them in which I very politely and gently requested an assurance of a free upgrade to an AU version they claim to have in the works that ALLEGEDLY would work with Logic.

 

All in all a TERRIBLE experience and waste of money. They don't deserve your business and you don't deserve the aggravation.

[Dr.Frank]

Anybody tried Muse receptor as AU or standalone.

How many instruments with effects can the unit take without crashing.

Sound qualiy, is it ok.

 

 

 

Frank

[eightyeights]

As a live band player in sh*tty little clubs and pubs, a physical synth is just easier to set up, use, and breakdown in a "hostile" environment. I have a Nord Electro and Nord Lead 3 and they cover the bases that I need to cover. Portable, quick to setup, easy to use, and very reliable. I don't think a laptop is best in that environment and the beautiful subtlety of soft synths quickly disappears in the live band mix.

 

For studio, it's obviously an entirely different matter.

 

As to organ, I carry a tube Leslie (model 145) and play a LOT of organ live. There is no Leslie simulator made that sounds worth a crap when used live. The physically splattered & reflected sound of a Leslie in a real room heard by human ears and not microphones has never been duplicated. Yet again, in a studio, the gap closes. I still prefer a well mic'ed Leslie to a simulation cuz that tube amp sounds soooo good, but the difference between a simulation and the real thing is much closer on a recording and the convenience of a soft B-3 when recording has a lot to be said for it. Especially when the organ is not the star of the show.

 

And by the way, I have a mint 1957 Hammond C-3 at home and I'd love to use it for gigs but the Electro's 20 lbs is just too attractive to my aching back. And the Leslie does wonders for the Electro organ sound.