Duplicating MIDI Event/Control Messages when Splitting Regions

Hello, is there a way to turn off MIDI Control Events from being duplicated/copied after splitting a region? For example, If I have a MIDI Control (Bank MSB) at measure 1 and I split that two measure region in half at measure 2, I will now have a Bank MSB entry inside region 1 at 1,1,1,1 and also at 1,4,4,238. And then in the newly split region, I will have a Bank MSB message at 2,1,1,1. Basically, three entries of that control message. If the track/region starts with the full set of MIDI controller messages, they will ALL be duplicated!. This seems to have started happening in one of the recent Logic updates and I'm not sure were to turn it off. I've tried it on three different laptops (MacBook Pros 2016 & 2017), all running the latest version of Logic and Mojave. Any help would be appreciated! Thank you!

Not at the studio to check that, so wild guess here:

perhaps it might be related to Chase settings?

It is a new region based automation behavior introduced in 10.4.5.

 

• "When regions with region-based automation are split, automation points are now added to the right-hand region to maintain consistent playback."

 

I notice that in 10.4.4 the behavior is/was - if the automation is flat (as in not moving) then after a split resulting right hand region does not contain that particular automation. Is it causing a problem with the Bank MSB situation you described? (Such as a patch having to reload?)

Thank You! I don't believe I have any automation enabled. In fact, Core Audio is not enabled, this is strictly MIDI. Even when I create a new song from scratch, I add one MIDI track, then create the region on the track, after I add some controller messages at the beginning, I split the region and all the controller messages duplicate, please see below. (I'm at work, I don't have my MIDI interface connected, which is why the track/port is shown as off, but the duplicating behavior is the same). Thanks!

Thank You! I don't believe I have any automation enabled... this is strictly MIDI.

 

Yes, funny, I also have my core audio disabled so Alchemy doesn't make my old laptop fan come on. Not sure of the proper Logic semantics but to me this is a form of MIDI automation. Is this new behavior causing a problem?

Yes, the MIDI playback stutters after splitting regions. When the tracks are spilt mid song (cutting out a third verse for example, go straight to outro chorus), all the Midi Control messages duplicate for each track and each region, all those messages are then sent out during playback and it seems to overwhelm the sound module causing it to stutter. I am going to have to be very conscience of where these controller messages are and isolate them at the beginning so that subsequent edits do not cause the duplications. I am going to see if there is an automation setting that can be turned off. Thank you!

Interesting. Good idea to isolate the startup MIDI messages. Do you think that the Bank MSBs might be causing the stutter? After splitting more regions you can turn on automation view, select Region automation, select all regions, then delete all the extra Bank MSB nodes .

 

Alternatively, I just noticed you might be able to mute/power down unnecessary region Bank MSB columns (Blue Button that appears when you mouse over the selector).

I think it's all the MIDI messages that were duplicated causing the stutter, the sheer amount of all those messages at one time right next to each other. Volume, Pan, Reverb, Chorus, etc.. I can setup the track settings at the beginning of the song, but will need to keep it all within its own region. If I need to change anything downstream, I will need to make new control entries and be cognizant of any more region splits as it will happen with those updated entries as well. It can be come a nightmare for sure! I never needed to worry about this until recently. Not sure which update changed this behavior, maybe a new update will undo it!

But I will definitely look into the automation settings and see if that can be turned off or undone. Thank you!

Normally a sound module can handle a group of single Vol/Pan/Rev/Chorus controller type messages. Are any of the messages SysEx? If not, I'm thinking the stutter might be the Bank messages, because they are most often related to program changes, causing a bunch patches to reload. Will be interesting to hear how this all pans : ) out.

And what about your chase settings?

Sorry, meant to reply as well. I tried also turning off all chase settings and same behavior...

I am bumping this post..... Does anyone have a solution to this.... ? I can't believe this is not a major issue and no one has reported it.....

Since that is happening within region, I wonder if that would also occur if those would be track automation instead...

Here is a one region project for you to try. can't get any simpler than this.....

1/ at bar 1 there is some cc info

2/ cut the region at bar 3 ( or wherever)

 

Notice the cc's are copied to the start of the 2nd region... Anyone know how to disable this ?

Cut-It.logicx.zip

That seems to be programmed as such in Logic, for the reason mentioned by Mark R in post #3

The workaround might be to deal with the CC on a separate track within a single region. Admittedly not an ideal one...

Atlas I appreciate your comments......and thank you.

But I can't believe this is true......... If I have 16 midi tracks and are making edits and cuts everywhere - do you realized how many of these messages are being created.... 100's.... Surely others would have reported/found this issue if there wasn't a way to turn it off......

sure would be nice if a few of the experts here download the file above and commented on a possible solutions...

Here is a one region project for you to try. can't get any simpler than this.....

1/ at bar 1 there is some cc info

2/ cut the region at bar 3 ( or wherever)

 

Notice the cc's are copied to the start of the 2nd region... Anyone know how to disable this ?

Finally found a minute to get to this! I tried it and got the same result as you describe: the Control data is copied to the cut point position, inside the 2nd region.

 

I tried a few things... clip length settings... nothing seems to affect that behavior.

 

Let me inquire and I'll try to find more info about this.

Thanks David,

and Exactly - your are experiencing the same as I did. I tried everything, project settings, project management settings, chase, automation etc I couldn't figure out how to stop this from occurring. - and you know me when I get figure something out I get a little nutty..

Thanks for checking with the elite and seeing if they know of anything to address this.

Thanks for checking with the elite and seeing if they know of anything to address this.

Ok Greg so unfortunately it's as we feared, it was confirmed to me, this behavior cannot be disabled.

Thanks David - I really appreciate that......

 

So my workaround is this.... for my 16 track projects...

1/ Cut the first measure of all 16 tracks. This cut copies all the cc data from measure 1 to the start of measure 2.

2/ Then go through each track and delete the newly created cc's in each track at the start of measure 2. hmm any fast way to do that?

3/ Then all future edits / cuts between bar 2 and the project end will no longer copy the cc's....

4/ when done and ready for midi export - rejoin all tracks.

 

I always considered Logic as one of the best Midi Editors - just took a step backwards.

 

it is like trying to cut something off the top of a piece of paper and after the cut what you were trying to remove suddenly appears on the newly cut sheet!!!

2/ Then go through each track and delete the newly created cc's in each track at the start of measure 2. hmm any fast way to do that?

I suppose you should be able to get a faster workflow if you select all the regions and choose Window > Open MIDI Transform, Mode = Delete Selected Events.

Thanks David - Any indication if it is by design or something that may change in the future

Thanks David - Any indication if it is by design or something that may change in the future

I'm fairly sure it's by design but if enough people request an option to change the behavior it should be easy enough for them to implement.

WAIT!! There may be a solution to this after all.

 

Try this: quit Logic, open the terminal and enter

 

defaults write com.apple.logic10 AlwaysCreateStartAutomationNodeInSplitRegion NO

 

See if that works for you?

David - You are amazing in obtaining that information and more importantly you knew this one had me crazy and you persisted to find a solution which you did. Thank you so much.....I should have thought about looking at the plist parameters but it never dawned on me.

I tested it and it works..... absolutely amazing.........Thank Thank Thank You....

 

The most valuable Logic Forum on the Internet!!!!!!!!

WAIT!! There may be a solution to this after all.

 

Try this: quit Logic, open the terminal and enter

 

defaults write com.apple.logic10 AlwaysCreateStartAutomationNodeInSplitRegion NO

 

See if that works for you?

Wow! Amazing hack!

Is there any other hidden tricks like that?

How did you get acquainted about same?

That seems to be a feature awaiting to be implemented isn't?

 

I guess that to re-enable that, one has to simply type YES instead of NO:

defaults write com.apple.logic10 AlwaysCreateStartAutomationNodeInSplitRegion YES

Right?

Try this: quit Logic, open the terminal and enter

 

defaults write com.apple.logic10 AlwaysCreateStartAutomationNodeInSplitRegion NO

Given that you did not just make that up, what exactly is happening here ? There is no string AlwaysCreateStartAutomationNodeInSplitRegion in com.apple.logic10.plist to mark a setting that you could turn off. So what is going on and how do you know this (and don't tell me "Oh well, you know, I was just casually hacking around in Terminal as I sometimes do, when I stumbled over this.") ? What else do you know that we don't ?

Now we all know how he got the answer... so let’s not put him on the spot!

He is just really smart !!!!

Given that you did not just make that up, what exactly is happening here ? There is no string AlwaysCreateStartAutomationNodeInSplitRegion in com.apple.logic10.plist to mark a setting that you could turn off. So what is going on and how do you know this (and don't tell me "Oh well, you know, I was just casually hacking around in Terminal as I sometimes do, when I stumbled over this.") ? What else do you know that we don't ?

Haha you're right I did not just make it up and that information can come only from one source. If that preference (can) exist in the preference file then surely it would be simple enough to add a checkbox for it in Logic's preferences to make it easier for us civilians to toggle it on and off. Maybe in some future version of Logic?