10.5.1 is out.

[des99]

Unbelievable arrogance that Apple will a. just overwrite your current copy, and b. not make available previous versions.

 

They used to rename old versions, but since it moved to the App Store, this is not app store policy to do this, and the standard behaviour designed to make the experience better for most makes the experience poorer for some, unfortunately...

 

it's an easy enough workaround than most poeple who've been Logic users for more than a little while get to know one way or another...

[David Nahmani]

Unbelievable arrogance that Apple will a. just overwrite your current copy, and b. not make available previous versions.

I don't agree on point a. because I believe for most apps and most users, that is the desired behavior (I can't imagine every single mac user having multiple versions of their Mail, iMovie, GaragaBand, Pages, Numbers etc... ). Or maybe a system that asks the user "do you want to keep a backup of your current version of that software?".

 

I do agree on point b. though. At least for pro apps. It is frustrating. Like des99, it's now our responsibility to keep backup of older Logic Pro X versions. Not a big deal once you know it, but the first time around it's generally a (bad) surprise.

[zip]

Well. That means Apple defines their audience as digital illiterate. That's fine for grannies with iPads who may have to be protected against themselves, but not for pro's that like to make their own choices and sometimes need convoluted/pro/non-standard solutions.

After all, it still has 'Pro' in its name, doesn't it? The Logic part has slowly evaporated over the years already...

Anyway, I dug up 10.14.4 from a backup. Just in case.

[David Nahmani]

Well. That means Apple defines his audience as digital illiterate.

Yes. That's no surprise. If you look at Apple's history, from day 1 Apple's goal has been to make computers accessible to everyone, not only to computer-literate users. The idea is to get out of the way and let people do what they want to do (create, write, draw, paint, produce music, movies). Not to ask them if they want to backup something, which version of something they should use, or to open MS-Dos or the Terminal to perform some action. You may not like it because you're a pro user, but it makes total sense in Apple's general direction.

[zip]

Apple is a fashion brand now, with shiny objects for people willing to pay extra for exclusiveness and ease of use.

I like my iPhone and it's fine because I am not a pro phone user. If I were, I would have an Android phone with all sorts of adaptations.

 

About accessibility, unfortunately I have a hard time justifying the expense of a (long overdue) MacBook Pro with zero user upgrade options for work. Apple's prices have almost doubled in 10 years. My income has not. That means another audio pro moving to a PC/Linux based solution.

[Dewdman42]

Apple should just make it possible at any time to download previous versions that we can pick from. That is better then backing up every app before installing update. They also provide time machine backup so if you are using that you should have no problem restoring the previous version

[zip]

Don't get me started on Time Machine. Definitely a non pro backup solution, even if it worked properly.

[des99]

Apple should just make it possible at any time to download previous versions that we can pick from.

 

Probably.

 

But asking the App Store team to develop, implement and test such a feature in a way that isn't impactful to the hundreds of millions of App Store customers is quite a big ask. It's not that they can't do it, but it's a lot of effort to change a big system just so a relatively few people can download an older version in case the current version doesn't work - and would also basically require Apple to admit that sometimes things they release aren't perfect, and that's an even bigger ask of their marketing department, who run it.

 

It's a *much much* smaller ask to keep a copy of the various Logic apps on your system (so you can pick which one to run), it's not that big...

 

It's also not a big ask to expect people using a pro app to upgrade in an informed and sensible way, but of course new users are coming to Logic all the time, and many of them don't even think about such things - until after the first time it happens to them and they get bitten. Of course, in general, these users often don't have hundreds of third party plugins and stuff at the beginning, so the likelihood of an update causing problems is smaller, but still...

[zip]

I don't see why pro apps should be sold via the (consumer) app store. The pro audio company I work for sold Logic Pro for years. Nobody complained. But Apple decided they wanted a bigger slice of the cake, I guess.

[zip]

Especially as pro users expectations and needs are vastly different from John Doe with a hobby.

[des99]

Yes, but that ship sailed long ago, and won't be coming back...

[fisherking]

Apple is a fashion brand now, with shiny objects for people willing to pay extra for exclusiveness and ease of use.

I like my iPhone and it's fine because I am not a pro phone user. If I were, I would have an Android phone with all sorts of adaptations.

 

About accessibility, unfortunately I have a hard time justifying the expense of a (long overdue) MacBook Pro with zero user upgrade options for work. Apple's prices have almost doubled in 10 years. My income has not. That means another audio pro moving to a PC/Linux based solution.

 

i don't see how apple is any different now then it's been over the last decade or so. and, seems a lot of pros are doing pro work on their macs... which have great specs, design, features (and are, as always... overpriced).

 

if you need to upgrade features, you do this on purchase... with apple, as usual. and, outside of the mac pro, prices are stable, or, in some cases lower... nothing has doubled.

[zip]

My current 2011 15-inch MBP i7 was 1400 eu new + 100 eu for a third party RAM expansion. The comparable 16-inch MBP 2020 is 2700 eu. I just checked.

[fisherking]

My current 2011 15-inch MBP i7 was 1400 eu new + 100 eu for a third party RAM expansion. The comparable 16-inch MBP 2020 is 2700 eu. I just checked.

 

there is no comparison between a 2011 15 inch and the 2020 16 inch

 

but i get the point...

[des99]

My current 2011 15-inch MBP i7 was 1400 eu new + 100 eu for a third party RAM expansion. The comparable 16-inch MBP 2020 is 2700 eu. I just checked.

 

That was a fairly unprecedented era when prices of the Macbook Pro's (the 15" sweet spot pro machines I'm talking about) were really low.

 

My first 2005 Powerbook was about £2400, with entry level being around £1700 iirc.

 

The 2008-2011 era, by 2011 the 15" MBP laptop entry level had lowered to about £1200, with the higher end ones being around £1800.

 

(I had a 2008 and a 2011 model, and I'm still using the 2011 now.)

 

The prices then started to go back up with the new generation retina MBP's starting in 2012, and the 2015 Mac was again back at the more or less £1700 entry level, where they stayed until the new generation touchbar ones came out, which were much more expensive than prevously, and the entry level 15/16" MBP now is well over 2 grand - and *slightly* more expensive than my 2005 PPC model...

[zip]

Apple nowadays provides to a certain elite audience, just like Mercedes or Chanel.

I just don't belong to that audience. But I have a lot of projects done in Logic(born as emagic Creator/Notator running on an Atari a long time ago), and I am still using Mac only interfaces. So I can't say goodbye just yet.

[fisherking]

Apple nowadays provides to a certain elite audience, just like Mercedes or Chanel.

I just don't belong to that audience. But I have a lot of projects done in Logic(born as emagic Creator/Notator running on an Atari a long time ago), and I am still using Mac only interfaces. So I can't say goodbye just yet.

 

apple provides to more people than it ever did; look at the numbers. artists, business people, people people... people in all walks of life use macs.

 

it used to be macs for the 'creative' and pcs for business... that's certainly changed.

[cleamon]

Well. That means Apple defines their audience as digital illiterate.

That's what the "i" in iTunes, iWeb, et. al. stands for.

[David Nahmani]

That's what the "i" in iTunes, iWeb, et. al. stands for.

Really!!?? And here I was this whole time, thinking it stood for ichthyofauna. Live and learn!

[Dewdman42]

Apple should just make it possible at any time to download previous versions that we can pick from.

 

Probably.

 

But asking the App Store team to develop, implement and test such a feature in a way that isn't impactful to the hundreds of millions of App Store customers is quite a big ask. It's not that they can't do it, but it's a lot of effort to change a big system just so a relatively few people can download an older version in case the current version doesn't work - and would also basically require Apple to admit that sometimes things they release aren't perfect, and that's an even bigger ask of their marketing department, who run it.

 

 

not its not. it can already do it. If you are on older verions of OSX, for example, the App store easily lets you download older versions of LPX. It would take hardly anything effort at all to allow us to manually choose an older release. That's not the reason. Apple is consciously choosing to not allow for whatever the reason.

 

 

It's a *much much* smaller ask to keep a copy of the various Logic apps on your system (so you can pick which one to run), it's not that big...

 

No, that is also wrong, that is totally contrary to Apple philosophy of making things easier for the user.

 

 

It's also not a big ask to expect people using a pro app to upgrade in an informed and sensible way, but of course new users are coming to Logic all the time, and many of them don't even think about such things - until after the first time it happens to them and they get bitten. Of course, in general, these users often don't have hundreds of third party plugins and stuff at the beginning, so the likelihood of an update causing problems is smaller, but still...

 

On this we agree. And Time Machine also exists, provided by Apple....

[des99]

not its not. it can already do it. If you are on older verions of OSX, for example, the App store easily lets you download older versions of LPX.

 

I know. I've been helping people do this, here and elsewhere, for years...

 

It would take hardly anything effort at all to allow us to manually choose an older release. That's not the reason. Apple is consciously choosing to not allow for whatever the reason.

 

The App Store would need to be updated with an interface that does this. For multiple OSX versions, they'd have to push out the update. No one is saying they can't do it, I'm saying that the need (although I would approve of the feature) is tiny for the users it affects, given the effort of pushing through significant changes to the App Store.

 

It's a *much much* smaller ask to keep a copy of the various Logic apps on your system (so you can pick which one to run), it's not that big...

 

No, that is also wrong, that is totally contrary to Apple philosophy of making things easier for the user.

 

?? It's not "wrong", keeping a copy of your Logic app is way easier, quicker and less costly than the App Store development team designing and implementing changes to the App Store to allow this feature. That's a clear fact.

 

Probably what you're trying to argue, despite the poor wording, is you think users shouldn't have to go through pain points *if* they need to download an older version - and I agree with you.

[Dewdman42]

Apple's general philosophy is to keep things simple for users even at a reduced level of functionality. Asking users to keep track of backup versions of all their downloaded software...sorry no, that will never happen, Apple will not ever do that, that is chaos and runs against their general philosophy.

 

I totally disagree with you about the difficulty level in making it possible to choose which version of an app we want to download. Its a tiny change that is well within Apple's capability to deliver without barely a bleep on their radar. As I said, they consciously choose not to for whatever reason we are not privy to.

 

Time machine works now.

[des99]

Apple's general philosophy is to keep things simple for users even at a reduced level of functionality. Asking users to keep track of backup versions of all their downloaded software...sorry no, that will never happen, Apple will not ever do that, that is chaos and runs against their general philosophy.

 

I agree.

 

I totally disagree with you about the difficulty level in making it possible to choose which version of an app we want to download. Its a tiny change that is well within Apple's capability to deliver without barely a bleep on their radar. As I said, they consciously choose not to for whatever reason we are not privy to.

 

*sigh* I seem to not be making myself clear enough. I never said the work is technically difficult. I said "getting changes made to the App Store is difficult" - from an organisational point of view.

 

if you think one of the Logic team could go "Hey, Phil, can we have a 'Download old versions' button on the App Store to put up a window where the user can choose from all the old versions of software we've made just in case they need to download an old one?", and expect Phil to go "Yeah, sure, sounds like a great idea, we'll sort that out this week!" that is just *not* how they run that thing.

 

Very few changes get made to the App Store - even important ones that have way more impact than this one - and any change is no doubt microscopically analysed and forecasted to see what the impact would be.

 

The reason the App Store is not getting new features all the time is because in it's current form it works for Apple, and any changes would have to be very hard fought for.

 

But you're right in that they don't seem to want to do it, for whatever reason - hence why getting that change done is very very hard to achieve. *That* was my point...

 

Moving on from this now...

[jimdilian]

we need 10.5.2 soon.. more Bugs..

 

i have yet to encounter an issue in 10.5.1. but that doesn't mean there aren't issues for some people, just as there will be issues for some in 10.5.2, 10.5.3, ad infinitum.

 

you rail constantly about logic; fair enough if you're having lots of problems. perhaps a different DAW is the solution? because expecting 10.5.2 to magically transform your logic experience is just you setting yourself up for further disappointment. there will never be a perfect moment, where everything 'just works' for everyone. just a thought...

 

noup I like logic.. I will just like .. the important bugs at least to be fixed that is all.. so... we cannot complain? right.. just see the good side always..?.. Logic Pro X is great

but there are many bugs that all I'm saying.. and I will continue reporting them.. forever.

[David Nahmani]

Apple's general philosophy is to keep things simple for users even at a reduced level of functionality. Asking users to keep track of backup versions of all their downloaded software...sorry no, that will never happen, Apple will not ever do that, that is chaos and runs against their general philosophy.

I completely agree, that is a good way to sum it up.

[cleamon]

I totally disagree with you about the difficulty level in making it possible to choose which version of an app we want to download..

Apple already does this for os/x and development tools and others. Going WAY back in versions. So the capability is there, they would just need to add pro apps to that.

[zip]

It's chaos already. You have a good chance of running into trouble if you upgrade your MacOS(new version every year, why?) without thoroughly checking the consequences(eg plug ins, utilities, drivers, 32 bit apps, etc).

I get called by clients all the time that thought Catalina was safe, only to find that something essential for their workflow no longer works.

If your MacBook Pro breaks, the AppleStore will happily sell you the latest and greatest(they have no idea), and you have no choice. It's Catalina for you, even if the software you depend on will not work properly(it took Avid ages to have a Catalina compatible version of Pro Tools, for example)

[mmm42]

Yes, remove the components and your system will no longer register those plugins to any app.

 

Unchecking them in Logic really just means "Don't show these in the plugin menus".

 

…because since Logic Pro 10.5 macOS does the scanning, not Logic – in the same way GarageBand does it for a couple of years.

[ozinga]

That's what the "i" in iTunes, iWeb, et. al. stands for.

Really!!?? And here I was this whole time, thinking it stood for ichthyofauna. Live and learn!

 

I thought it stood for idiots

[des99]

…because since Logic Pro 10.5 macOS does the scanning, not Logic – in the same way GarageBand does it for a couple of years.

 

Interesting... thanks for the info!