Which small controller to get?

[RhythmTrax]

I while back I bought a Roland A-800 Pro (61 key) keyboard controller (which I never figured out how to properly set up despite the help I've received here -I don't use any knobs, just the keyboard (I know, quite a waste). I might get back to configuring it later when I get the time/patience).
Another problem is that ergonomically the placement of that keyboard is a bit out of reach while simultaneously working with the DAW and plugins. It's more suitable for recording long and more complex musical pieces.

For simple keyboard playing, drum programming, auditing plugin-instrument patches, mixing etc. a small keyboard controller would probably be more helpful, which could be placed on top of my desk. Would something like the (25 key) Akai MPK-Mini Mk.3 be a good choice?

I still consider myself quite new to the DAW world, but when I mentioned mixing I meant the ability to use the knobs (and/or faders if other suitable controllers are used) to easily apply reverb, delay etc. "live" where I want, and likewise turn them off. The same way people remixed tracks "hands on" back in the 80s using an analog mixer.

Edited August 16, 2022 by RhythmTrax

[des99]

No, something like that is not going to let you "hands on mix". It's a generic controller, with 8 knobs, and no channel/bank switching. The best you are going to do is manually map the occasional parameter, or use it for smart controls, but you'd likely need to massively lower your expectations if you want to use that (it's less capable than your previous A800...)

[RhythmTrax]

So I'd need a different sort of (dedicated) controller for doing "hands on mixing"?
Or do you know if my Roland A-800 could do that sort of thing with the right configuration?

Sounds like the mentioned Akai keyboard controller is just a simple keyboard controller for playing simple melodies, programming drums and auditing software instrument sounds. But are you saying I can't even change a software instruments' patch without reaching for the computer's mouse?
 

[des99]

6 minutes ago, RhythmTrax said:

So I'd need a different sort of (dedicated) controller for doing "hands on mixing"?

Yes, something more like the Behringer X-Touch.

6 minutes ago, RhythmTrax said:

Or do you know if my Roland A-800 could do that sort of thing with the right configuration?

Not really, it's still just a simple dumb MIDI controller. You can control levels and pans I would expect, so it really depends on what you mean by hands on mixing...

7 minutes ago, RhythmTrax said:

Sounds like the mentioned Akai keyboard controller is just a simple keyboard controller for playing simple melodies, programming drums and auditing software instrument sounds

Yes, most of these generic MIDI controllers are.

8 minutes ago, RhythmTrax said:

But are you saying I can't even change a software instruments' patch without reaching for the computer's mouse?

Not really no... these things are not specifically designed for Logic (or any particular DAW), so the functionality they implement is basically lowest-common-demoninator almost all of the time. You just can't do a lot with generic MIDI controllers, unless you want to manually map things all the time, which is (imo) a terrible experience.

[RhythmTrax]

12 hours ago, des99 said:

Yes, something more like the Behringer X-Touch.

I see what you mean. Looks useful for those who want physical faders, knobs and buttons for mixing. Does it more or less resemble a physical mixing desk? I see there are cheaper controllers available as well from Akai and Korg.

 

12 hours ago, des99 said:

Not really, it's still just a simple dumb MIDI controller. You can control levels and pans I would expect, so it really depends on what you mean by hands on mixing...

Here's an example (the video should start at 4:12) where musician/producer John Robie adds various effects "live" in different places on a pre-recorded drum track: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMi9O1bpU_o&t=252s

Very intuitive and "hands on", and it would be great to do this with Logic. The computer mouse isn't the greatest for quickly opening and closing a fader or different switches. But being inexperienced with using Logic, perhaps there are other more intuitive and simple ways of doing things that I haven't yet explored....

 

12 hours ago, des99 said:

Yes, most of these generic MIDI controllers are.

So as long as it comes with support for Logic it's mostly a matter of the keyboard action, number of knobs and pads etc? Or does anyone have recommendations for a small keyboard controller like this which works better than others with Logic?

 

12 hours ago, des99 said:

Not really no... these things are not specifically designed for Logic (or any particular DAW), so the functionality they implement is basically lowest-common-demoninator almost all of the time. You just can't do a lot with generic MIDI controllers, unless you want to manually map things all the time, which is (imo) a terrible experience.

Oh, that's frustrating. I certainly don't want to map things manually as I've tried that with the Roland A-800. It doesn't help being new to keyboard controllers in general either.
Are there controllers specifically made for Logic which do things better than the generic ones? I was expected to at least being able to change patches with a knob or previous/next buttons as it's frustrating to always have to use the mouse to point and click with. Takes a lot more time than having dedicated buttons/knobs for this. Or are there other ways to do this more effectively?

[des99]

51 minutes ago, RhythmTrax said:

Very intuitive and "hands on", and it would be great to do this with Logic.

Yes, having a large-scale console has some advantages in workflow. It also has a bunch of disadvantages (space, cost, fixed feature set etc).

Control surfaces let you do this stuff, but again, they are generally a lot smaller with less controls than a large format analog desk.

53 minutes ago, RhythmTrax said:

Are there controllers specifically made for Logic which do things better than the generic ones?

Yes, "control surfaces" that use the Mackie Control protocol, including the Mackie Control units, and others like the aforementioned Behringer X-Touch.

54 minutes ago, RhythmTrax said:

I was expected to at least being able to change patches with a knob or previous/next buttons as it's frustrating to always have to use the mouse to point and click with.

This is more complicated than you think, but there are already key commands you can use the increment decrement patches/channel strips/presets in Logic. Assign them to a couple of MIDI controls and you can move through Logic content without using the mouse. You don't need a control surface for this (and nor does a control surface really do much better, they aren't really designed for this.)

[David Nahmani]

In my opinion controllers are ALL about your own personal preferences based on your workflow. If you want to do some mixing from your controller, move some faders while the song is playing back to adjust instrument levels then I agree with des99 that you're better off with a Mackie Control Universal. 

However if you want something that's easy to move around and put on your lap so that you can perform a few knob twists live, perhaps while playing a bass line, or a basic beat, then that small AKAI keyboard is just perfect. So you have to use your imagination and picture how you'll be using the controller to do what it is you want to do with it.

I watched the Afrika Bambaataa video (or at least the part of it you linked to) and that's a very cool workflow. You could start easy with any controller such as that AKAI or your A800 or anything that has a few knobs. Here's how to set it up: 

1. In Logic, select all your tracks in your Mixer and click send 1, then choose bus 1. An Aux is created, insert your favorite effect there, for example a big reverb. 
2. Now click send 2, then choose bus 2, and insert a new effect, say a guitar amp with heavy distortion, on the new Aux. 
3. Repeat until you have 8 sends set up: 
   
4. Now select only one track,
5. Press Command-L (to activate learn mode),
6. Click Send 1 level knob,
7. Move 1 knob on your keyboard controller,
8. Repeat #6 and #7 for all 8 send level knobs on the selected track. 

From now on, the 8 knobs on your controller let you dial the 8 effects set up on Aux 1—8 for whatever track you select in Logic Pro. 

Another way to do that kind of "mixing performance" is this environment I created a while ago, using keys or buttons on your controller to turn an effect fully on or off: 

 

[des99]

13 minutes ago, David Nahmani said:

From now on, the 8 knobs on your controller let you dial the 8 effects set up on Aux 1—8 for whatever track you select in Logic Pro. 

And an example of how inflexible these small, generic controllers are - you set all that up - and if you want to also tweak it for track 9..? Ugh...

As David said, it's about workflow, and if your needs are simple, you can map a few things, turn a few controls, and take advantage of some Logic features in this regard.

But for most people buying a simple controller like this without really knowing much about how controllers (and MIDI!) work, the expectation is, hey, I plug this into the DAW, and I'll be able to control all the things easily I expect, like the mixer stuff, levels, pans, sends, across my 168-track project, plus also edit plugins and change patches and so on - the reality is so far from that, that no wonder a lot of people get disappointed.

The reality with those things is that they defer the manufacturer the responsibility and task of *designing* a controller that's good to use, makes sense, is flexible and so on. All they basically do is "Here's a box with some knobs and keys and pads that sends MIDI - you figure the rest out", leaving the user to try to figure out and design a workflow solution for their needs, in their DAW of choice. And basically people buy gear to *solve* problems, not to create a new set of problems ("wait, so now I have to figure out a workflow, figure out whether the DAW even lets me do that, and design a controller system to implement this for me in the best way?")

We see it here all the time. How many of these generic controllers are bought, and end up controlling a few things, or tossed to the side as being not useful, or just used for keys and pads and the occasional manual mapped plugin control?

It doesn't mean these things can't be useful - I have one, and for my purposes it works great, but it's not the sort of system that many people can figure out and set up. This is why for most people with anything other than the simplest of needs, a proper *control surface*, rather than a *generic MIDI controller* is a far better bet, because with a control surface, the manufacturer has at least designed the device and control scheme for a specific workflow, and optimised the physical control layout rather than expect the user to create one themselves.

Ugh. Sorry. Pet rant over...

TL;DR; Don't expect much from a small generic MIDI controller.

[David Nahmani]

1 minute ago, des99 said:

And an example of how inflexible these small, generic controllers are - you set all that up - and if you want to also tweak it for track 9..? Ugh...

Just select Track 9! 

The way I had it set up is the 8 knobs control the 8 send level knobs on any selected track, and for most uses 8 send level knobs will be enough. And if you need more you could always set up one more mode for sends 9-15 in Logic. 

My general impression with controllers is that most of them are trying to do too much while many times, people need only very basic functions. Transport buttons, knobs only for those parameters you need to perform real time... things like that. 

But yes, everyone has different needs. 

[des99]

44 minutes ago, David Nahmani said:

Just select Track 9! 

Oh, sorry, in my haste to rant 😝 I missed you were learning to the selected track. I thought you were manually learning 8 tracks to 8 sets controls etc. Yes, with small controllers that is a good way to go... 👍

Edited August 19, 2022 by des99

[RhythmTrax]

4 hours ago, David Nahmani said:

In my opinion controllers are ALL about your own personal preferences based on your workflow. If you want to do some mixing from your controller, move some faders while the song is playing back to adjust instrument levels then I agree with des99 that you're better off with a Mackie Control Universal. 

I realize it's hard to get the perfect solution. It's either cost, size or features and you have to find a compromise. I also see that it's useful to spend some time researching all of this before comitting to buying anything at all.
Thanks to you and Des99 I now know understand the basics, so I can move on from there and see what's available and what I need.

 

4 hours ago, David Nahmani said:

I watched the Afrika Bambaataa video (or at least the part of it you linked to) and that's a very cool workflow. You could start easy with any controller such as that AKAI or your A800 or anything that has a few knobs. Here's how to set it up: 

You made my day with this! 👍👍👍
Actually I had done the first steps prior to reading this (creating multiple sends and returns with different effects) but I didn't know I could select multiple instrument/audio tracks and have that repeated for all of them.
I followed your instructions and was able to do this with my Roland A-800's knobs. What's more I assigned the A-800 faders to the AUX returns in Logic, so now I'm able to fully control the effects as I would use the mouse before. Now that I understand the basics I'm sure I'll find additional ways to make this even more useful 😀 ....such as assigning the left/right buttons or the "value" knob on my A-800 to select a track/channel strip. That way I could easily choose which sound (i.e. a different drum/percussion sound on each track) to send to each effect. Ideally I'd have a mixing board with 8 sends for say 24 tracks (8x24=192 knobs) along with the 8 return faders, but 8 knobs and 8 faders with the ability to quickly switch between them will probably be more than fine after some practice!

I don't know if it's just in my version of Logic (10.4.8) since you didn't mention it, but when I pressed CMD-L this window popped up:

I assumed I should press the "Learn mode" button (bottom right hand corner) when I was done "teaching" Logic, right?
In any case my setup has improved dramatically because of this, so thanks a million for your comments and setup guide!
Here's what my setup looks like:

 

Once I save my Logic project, that setup will be saved along with it, right? But I'll have to either save it under a new name in order to work on another song with the same controller setup I just did, or save it as a template, right? Maybe I just need to spend some time creating a "virtual 24 track studio" with all the tracks and effects I generally need, then start all my future projects with it.
On that note I'm going to check out the link and Teddy Riley template in your posting.

[RhythmTrax]

This is all very cool!
But how can I make the effect sends I've created to become default for any (both instrument and audio) new track I add?

It would be great to create a new template with all those effect sends and returns as well as the ability to control the returns from my A-800 keyboard controller. But as the number and types of tracks to be used is hard to determine before starting a project it would be nice to have the effects as part of any new track which I may add.

Are there also keyboard shortcuts for "select next track"/"select previous track" which I could make my A-800 learn and assign it to a knob? There's an endless knob labelled "Value" which would be ideal for this. That way I could quickly select any track and with the other knobs choose which sends to open and close for that track.

Getting back to the keyboard controller: I've looked through a few Youtube videos reviewing and showing that Akai MKP-Mini Mk. 3 in actual use with Logic, and it appears to be very useful for what I was initially thinking about ("noodling" around, auditing or creating new patches, recording simple melodies, programming drum patterns etc.) all while taking up very little desktop space. The A-800 could still act as the "proper" keyboard for playing more complex stuff and for adding effects/mixing. I also have a DX-7 which has pitch and modulation wheels I find more pleasing than the Roland style bender (though both have their place and usefulness).

 

Edited August 24, 2022 by RhythmTrax

[MikeRobinson]

At one time, I bought a controller with "all kinds of knobs, switches and dials" because I thought at the time that I needed one.  It turned out to be very heavy and very cumbersome ... and then, one day, "it just blinked off."  I sold it to someone who knows how to repair such things, and wound up buying a [Korg KROSS-2] general-purpose 88-key synthesizer which has thence proved to be very satisfactory.  (And, many pounds lighter!)

I have not yet delved again into the world of "knobs, switches, and dials," but if I ever do, I'm going to look for a unit which specializes in being "just that."  I'll hook it into the USB-bus alongside the keyboard, and take it for granted that Logic knows what to do.

I've found that many things seem to try to be "jack of all trades," but wind up as "the master of none."  I was really surprised at how dissatisfied I was at my original purchase . . . which looked really good on paper, and of course, was immediately recognized by Logic.  Looking back, "it did everything it promised to do, but didn't do anything well."

Edited August 24, 2022 by MikeRobinson