Plugin-Alliance plugs crashing Logic under 10.7.5/Ventura

[fisherking]

Just now, des99 said:

Yes, and in many cases it does work like that, but in some cases, literally critical components that a dev *needs* stable and in place to develop for, link against and build to just aren't even in the betas. I've known several cases and developers who have hit things like this (not saying this applies to PA, I'm just saying that in some cases, developers literally can't code against the betas, or if they do, end up chasing their tail and having to completely re-implement things multiple times that worked in previous betas that now need changing because of the beta moving target).

I'm just making the point that some devs even have a policy that they are not even going to look into, or test for compatibility until an OS goes final. And that's their call to make, usually based on being burned by Apple before... and with a large catalog, and a ton of other development and business commitments all going on, it can be complicated to prioritise, schedule, and get it done.

Indeed.

here's why i disagree: once an OS is officially released, there are still bugs, issues, compatibility problems. hence the continuing beta (and official) updates. there's no finite point, when the OS has fully arrived. it's a constant work-in-progress, and while i sympathize with the developers having to keep up... that is how it works.

[des99]

1 hour ago, fisherking said:

here's why i disagree:

I've given some examples of practical realities that I know devs have faced, and how they've made their decisions. In their position, you might have made different decisions - but faced with the realities, you may choose to make exactly the same decisions. It's the developers choice, and it's very depending on the exact situation they are facing.

Generally speaking, Apple are hustling to get everything done and working for release, and sometimes problematic or late components that don't even make it in to the last round of betas, or never worked in the betas, finally get in for the release, or maybe very late betas. Happens all the time. I'm not making this up, I know developers who have run into problems like these - and have been burned by these things more than once.

1 hour ago, fisherking said:

once an OS is officially released, there are still bugs, issues, compatibility problems. hence the continuing beta (and official) updates. there's no finite point, when the OS has fully arrived. it's a constant work-in-progress, and while i sympathize with the developers having to keep up... that is how it works.

Of course, but that's not what I'm talking about.

As a hypothetical, so your app requires an audio framework, where Apple has publicised, and documented a feature that is coming in the new version of the OS, and that feature is critical to you. Except that feature is not yet in any of the released betas. You can do *zero* development on that, *until* it's available. Let's say they finally add it in a very late beta, and so you finally start to look at it and start coding it up - except you find there's a critical bug in it, that you can't work around, and can't make progress on. Then one beta before final, they change the implementation as part of a solution to fix the problem, and now the work you've already done to start implementing this feature needs scrapping... this kind of work is wasteful, and often devs faced with these kinds of issues (I'm not saying they happen all the time, but they do happen) make the choice to say "Apple haven't got this right yet, so I'm going to wait until they ship a final, which *should* have it working, before looking at it again." In the meantime, they put that development effort into other things that aren't affected.

And of course, if it finally works in the shipping version, they can resume development on that feature, in the hope of making progress to releasing a new version of their software that supports the new OS features that they've determined is important.

And if it's still broken in the release version (yep, happens of course), again, there's not much they can do to make progress on that. In some cases, the decision can be, well let's just scrap that feature for later, and ship the other stuff, but sometimes, it's such a fundamental component that they can't really do that. One of the (many) reasons why it can seem like some software companies take a long time to qualify new OS's and release new OS compatibility updates - whereas others seem to do it quickly. It's really dependent on the state of the code, the software requirements, and the available resources.

Sometimes, it's not even *your* code you are waiting on, it's third-party components that's vital to you, that the developer of that code hasn't updated yet to work (eg, you use iLok, which was a very real issue for M1 native compatibility, until Pace recoded iLok from the ground up to support a completely new chip architecture, which I understand was not trivial at all).

Such are the realities of software development - which takes me back to the point I was previously making, is that things are often not that straightforward.

Not that I'm apologising on behalf of PA. There were *agonisingly* slow to release M1 native updates too, and I just had to work around that as best I could in the meantime (fortunately Apple made the AUHostingCompatibilityService to help those kinds of transitions).

And some companies claim M1 native compatibility, but have serious performance problems *coughRo*cough*lan*cough*d... that's not a quick fix either, and I have no idea whether they ever recognise it as a problem, or are working on fixes for it...

 

Edited April 28, 2023 by des99

[analogika]

All true. But you also have absolutely no idea how the resources are divided at individual companies. 
 

They might just not have the personnel for PR and customer relations if the six people they have are working on new releases and compatibility updates. 
 

I cut them slack, especially if they support multiple platforms. 

Edited April 28, 2023 by analogika
I’m on tour as — tadaa: Logic Operator and keyboard backliner. Edited for grammatical compatibility with the parallel universe

[fisherking]

i've been on the OS public betas since almost forever, so i've learned patience. i have some horror stories, but i don't blame apple or the developers when there are bumps in the road. it's the nature of the (beta) beast.

but six months behind an official release, when there are endusers dependent on one's apps/plugins... seems (to me) inexcusable.

but i won't stress it; i don't have any PA plugins, and all the things i use, work, natively. so much respect to those developers.

[Renan C. Anjos]

Yesterday PA announced that, by the end of August, all of their plugins will be compatible with Ventura.

"Ensuring that our plugins run on the latest systems and hardware is one of our top priorities" - as they say.

[hkremer]

Brainworx plugins aren't crashing Logic, quite, but I have to stop Logic to launch them. If I try to open one in a channel if the playhead is moving I get an error that Logic has encountered a problem with the plugin and must quit. Every time. October 2023

[des99]

3 minutes ago, hkremer said:

Brainworx plugins aren't crashing Logic, quite, but I have to stop Logic to launch them. If I try to open one in a channel if the playhead is moving I get an error that Logic has encountered a problem with the plugin and must quit. Every time. October 2023

With which versions of the PA plugins? The pre-Ventura update versions (which were crashy/unreliable generally, but otherwise behaved as expected), or the Ventura update versions (which are no longer crashy, but have terrible CPU problems, borderline unusable in some cases).

[hkremer]

1 hour ago, des99 said:

With which versions of the PA plugins? The pre-Ventura update versions (which were crashy/unreliable generally, but otherwise behaved as expected), or the Ventura update versions (which are no longer crashy, but have terrible CPU problems, borderline unusable in some cases).

The PA installation manager doesn't indicate versions or if there are updates, from what I can see. I checked the Amek and it was 1.2 and the PA site said 1.3 is the latest, so I just downloaded and installed all of them. This is a relatively new computer, just set it up in the summer, so they would be recent. It does seem more like a CPU problem than incompatibility though. I can't launch, or even open them in a track if the playhead is moving. Oh well, plenty of alternatives. Thanks for the response. 

[des99]

3 minutes ago, hkremer said:

The PA installation manager doesn't indicate versions or if there are updates, from what I can see. I checked the Amek and it was 1.2 and the PA site said 1.3 is the latest, so I just downloaded and installed all of them.

Ok, so you were likely running the pre-Ventura updates, and have just installed the Ventura updates. They should be less crashy... We're now waiting for the Post-Ventura update update to fix the CPU issues. PA are working on it, but they are never fast with updates, unfortunately.