iPad app to have a few MIDI faders?

[JakobP]

On 1/26/2023 at 1:30 AM, GeneralDisarray said:

That's OK, it's not a big deal, I was just curious. But you seem to have experience in the music industry, so let me ask you this: the reason that thought came to me is because I remembered some documentaries where there's a lot of footage of those giant studio consoles with like 200 channels, each with its own fader, and I saw the faders going up and down, which I assume was the automation being played back.

Since those faders are physical, obviously there's a motor in each of them, but what sends the animation being played back to them? That's not MIDI, it's some other protocol?

Here's an interesting article about the history of automation 🙂

A Look At The History Of Console Automation

[GeneralDisarray]

10 hours ago, JakobP said:

Here's an interesting article about the history of automation 🙂

A Look At The History Of Console Automation

Thanks! Definitely a good read for sure.

[GeneralDisarray]

By the way, to start the weekend I thought I would improve on the project and make the faders look nicer. I downloaded the macOS version of it, which basically the developer told me feel free to do it, it's just nagware, and I polished the look a bit and added an XY Pad that I assigned to CCs 1 and 11, which is very useful for owners of Eastwest's Forbidden Planet, but can be assigned to whatever anybody wants. So if any of you wants to play around with it, I attached the file.

 

Two Faders and Ass with Pad 03.tosc

[wonshu]

You can have the MIDI routed back to TouchOSC - you will have to cable it directly in Logics Environment.

There is a big downside to it: While you move the faders on the iPad, they will jump around and look like they have a seizure... it's not pleasant. I only use it for 2 specific uses where I never ever record any of the movements, but I do want the iPad to reflect where the fader is. And I always move those specific faders to their default value. This is not a musical application but has to do with the audio I get from the films I'm working on.

BTW: I have a page with 4 of those X/Y controls because most of the synths I use are from u-he and at least two of them (Hive + Zebra) have X/Y already setup.

[Jordi Torres]

On 1/25/2023 at 2:46 AM, GeneralDisarray said:

I was wondering, since this is a purely digital setup as opposed to physical faders, could it be setup so that not only it sends the movement of the fingers on the sliders to the DAW, but also the other way around, so if I'm playing back a track that already has automation, then the faders in the iPad will go up and down according to that automation?

TouchOSC does support bidirectional communication, and how to set it up will depend on whether you're using controller assignments in Logic or not.

If you're using Logic's controller assignments, then it's quite easy to get it working as long as the MIDI data is transmitted/received via either IDAM ports (available when connecting your iPad with a cable to your Mac), or wirelessly via macOS' Network MIDI driver. Unfortunately this does not work when using the TouchOSC Bridge for whatever reason.

So when using Logic controller assignments with either IDAM or Network MIDI driver, the assignments will automatically send "feedback" to TouchOSC. You can see this on your assignments in the Controller Assignments window > Expert View:

And this is how that looks when playing back a project where some track automation has been written for the parameters those assignments control:

 

If on the other hand you just have some MIDI data you recorded to a region, you can send that data back to TouchOSC by patching it up in the MIDI Environment. Unlike when using controller assignments, this approach does work with TouchOSC Bridge:

 

 

7 hours ago, wonshu said:

There is a big downside to it: While you move the faders on the iPad, they will jump around and look like they have a seizure... it's not pleasant

 

That sounds like you got a MIDI feedback loop going on? Here it works fine as shown above. 

J.

Edited January 28, 2023 by Jordi Torres
additional info

[wonshu]

2 hours ago, Jordi Torres said:

That sounds like you got a MIDI feedback loop going on? Here it works fine as shown above. 

I have it cabled exactly like you do, but I'm getting MIDI feedback... maybe I'll investigate further... but it doesn't really bother me...

[lookatthisguy]

Well, that's some surprising new information to me, but that's great to hear!

Maybe I'll have to look into this, see if it would work with my main TouchOSC project. (Mine has six faders, and the CC each fader transmits is selectable/adjustable via an additional slider.

[GeneralDisarray]

Thanks @Jordi Torres for enlightening us with that knowledge, I'll try that later.

I made a new version of my project, when I realized that I didn't need the ASSignable fader as much, but I realized that many times I was using the two faders for basically the same thing. In my short experience with MIDI and CCs, I can tell that many instruments use MOD and EXP in different ways. They are very prominent in most Spitfire instruments where you have right there taking up most of the GUI along with the wheel for Reverb and whatnot. 

And in other instruments sometimes one works and the other does nothing, or they both do different things. But since I own many Spitfire products and they basically act like a kind of volume, and they're usually meant to be used together, I created a Combo fader that basically sends both CCs to the computer at the same time, so when you record anything, both will be identical. Now, when you slide the Combo fader, it doesn't link the other two together and moves them. If there's a way to do that, I don't really care to spend the time trying to figure it out.

I also added a basic button that triggers a note, in this case E5, but you can change it to any other, if you know the number, because TouchOSC doesn't let you enter C4 for example, but you have to enter a number that doesn't even match the keyboard, since I entered 88 as they number and it's E5.

And the reason for this is not to record an instrument, but for learning purposes. Say you want to recreate a song you like, and this song has a fast percussion of some kind, or a staccato violin, brass, whatever. If you're  just learning music, it might be difficult for you to count how many are in a bar.

But, if you have good ear, and you can sort of find the tempo tapping your finger, then you create another instrument track, without an instrument, hit record, listen to the song in the audio track, and tap on this button that rhythm. When you stop, you will have a bunch of notes in the piano roll that will all be red and short, so that will let you get closer to finding out how many hits of whatever instrument are per bar, or where they fall.

So feel free to try it out and have fun.

3 Faders CC1 CC11 and combo 07.tosc

[wonshu]

16 hours ago, Jordi Torres said:

That sounds like you got a MIDI feedback loop going on? Here it works fine as shown above. 

Oh PS:

Just watched your GIF again.

Yes, playback is not a problem and the jumping around doesn't happen then, but when I move a fader on the iPad and the MIDI goes to Logic and then back to the fader on the iPad, then it does jump around...

Anyway, still haven't investigated further, I will try one more time if I can filter out something at some point in the path...

[lookatthisguy]

On 1/28/2023 at 10:10 PM, GeneralDisarray said:

I made a new version of my project, when I realized that I didn't need the ASSignable fader as much, but I realized that many times I was using the two faders for basically the same thing. In my short experience with MIDI and CCs, I can tell that many instruments use MOD and EXP in different ways. They are very prominent in most Spitfire instruments where you have right there taking up most of the GUI along with the wheel for Reverb and whatnot. 

And in other instruments sometimes one works and the other does nothing, or they both do different things. But since I own many Spitfire products and they basically act like a kind of volume, and they're usually meant to be used together, I created a Combo fader that basically sends both CCs to the computer at the same time, so when you record anything, both will be identical. Now, when you slide the Combo fader, it doesn't link the other two together and moves them. If there's a way to do that, I don't really care to spend the time trying to figure it out.

 

Don't want to sound like I'm telling someone how to use sample instruments, but using both identically often isn't an ideal idea if realism is the goal. For many/most instruments, each CC in use is mapped to a parameter that reflects techniques live performers may utilize in the moment to add musicality whatever they're playing. String players may adjust their dynamic level following the contour of a passage, for instance, but would not add vibrato unless the notes were long enough… but if those parameters are both being controlled in tandem, the end result will lack in believability. (This is a rhetorical example, but the vague term "expression" can often partially include vibrato.) 

Quote

I also added a basic button that triggers a note, in this case E5, but you can change it to any other, if you know the number, because TouchOSC doesn't let you enter C4 for example, but you have to enter a number that doesn't even match the keyboard, since I entered 88 as they number and it's E5.

If you're inspired and motivated enough by this little project, it may be worth studying up more on MIDI to understand why 88 results in E5 and not the top C on the piano, which I'm guessing was your goal. But briefly: all MIDI signals are made up of 8-bit words, the first bit of which identifies the type of MIDI data. From there, the remaining seven bits can comprise a range of 128 discrete steps, which obviously, necessarily map above and below the range of an 88-key keyboard. 88 is E5/E6, depending on your labeling standard (Roland labels middle C as C4, as does the rest of the world, while Yamaha IDs it as C3 for reasons I don't know.)

[Jordi Torres]

Hey wonshu,

 

On 1/29/2023 at 7:44 AM, wonshu said:

Yes, playback is not a problem and the jumping around doesn't happen then, but when I move a fader on the iPad and the MIDI goes to Logic and then back to the fader on the iPad, then it does jump around...

 

From what I'm seeing TouchOSC is already properly handling data coming in and going out of it as to prevent any infinite loops, so not sure why you're getting that behavior. Also, touching any controls on the application with your fingers has priority over any incoming MIDI data to which those controls would respond (at least that's what I'm seeing here).

So far the only way I've managed to get controls in TouchOSC to look like they're having a seizure is to send them multiple "streams" of the same MIDI data at the same time, for example by having different curves of a given CC on two separate tracks in Logic going back to TouchOSC.

J.

 

 

 

[Dewdman42]

The easiest way to simple cc faders on an ipad is metagridpro free version which comes with that.

https://www.metasystem.io/metagrid_pro/

[GeneralDisarray]

16 hours ago, lookatthisguy said:

Don't want to sound like I'm telling someone how to use sample instruments, but using both identically often isn't an ideal idea if realism is the goal.

Oh, no worries. You're a professional in the field, I'm just a guy trying to learn this in his spare time, which is not abundant, so you and everybody else here who knows their stuff is welcome to give me advice.

One thing I love to do is pick apart my favorite songs in movie and TV scores, and try to guess the notes for each instrument, how long they are, where do they go, etc, etc. And I'm sure the way I do it is rather primitive, although I have learned so much stuff in the past 6 months, but what I know is a drop, and what I don't is an ocean.

But depending on the publishing company, and also each instrument, I have realized that in many cases they only use the MOD CC. In other cases they use both EXP and MOD, but in different ways. I have many string libraries where the EXP really gives it a stronger, more raw feel when raising, like strumming a guitar harder to put it some way.

And in other cases, I noticed they act as kind of a second and third volume. I keep the note pressed and move the CC 1 and 11 sliders one at a time and both act like a volume, or not a volume, they actually feel like the player is putting more "effort" into it, but both sound the same when raised and lowered. This seems to me like it happens a lot with Spitfire instruments. 

Added to that, the iPad along with TouchOSC is a really nice way to have custom faders and things that would be really expensive to buy as real controllers (that is, if you already had the iPad sitting somewhere gathering dust because you bought it in 2015 and hardly ever used it), but when you start moving the fingers back and forth, they tend to get stuck. And you can keep wiping the thing, washing your hands, and they still get a bit stuck.

But that is much better if you only have one fader in the screen instead of two.

So when I started using the two separate sliders, sometimes one finger would get stuck, the other would keep going, and I ended up with two separate automation curves that I didn't want, so I would need to go in there with the pencil and draw one to match the other.

Having one simplifies things for me, at least in this stage. Hell, if only I had a way to choose whether I want MOD and EXP in Logic separate or both together, so drawing one would draw both, that would save me so much time.

[Atlas007]

22 hours ago, GeneralDisarray said:

what I know is a drop, and what I don't is an ocean.

As long as you are enjoying the learning process, ‘cause it pretty much will always be like that…