Dare I ask for a Ø Polarity Invert Button on the Channel Strip?

[Joe Lonsdale]

I have asking and waiting for one of these since forever and it is such a blindingly obvious omission from a "mixing desk". There is even a little space for it ready and waiting:

Left click to engage /disengage, right click for pre or post fader.

Don't make me keep searching for that damn Gainer plugin (and don't tell me to create a template where every channel has one already instantiated or I shall scream).

Joe 😉

[Atlas007]

What would be the real benefit from that?

(go ahead: scream! I have my noise cancellation cans on…) 😑

Edited July 14, 2023 by Atlas007

[sunbrother]

+1

@Atlas007 Generally, this function is used to fix phase cancellation problems between multiple microphones. Top and bottom snare microphones, some kick microphones, certain piano microphones, a few stereo or multi-mic configurations. Also, I recall some methods of distortion/saturation might require a polarity reverse. There are lots of uses for it, and the way that I use Logic it is rather inconvenient to have Logic's Gain plugin at the beginning of every patch, channel strip setting, and template. 

@Joe Lonsdale Isn't the ideal spot for the polarity switch pre-insert though? That's where most hardware mixers I've used had it. I think the right click toggle may be more useful as pre or post inserts.

Edited July 15, 2023 by sunbrother

[des99]

It's a good idea, as long as it's a configurable item (ie, you can choose to show it or not), so it's not more clutter for the more "composer" types of use cases, where this is far less of an important tool.

Submit it as a feature request, for sure.

[fuzzfilth]

The usefulness of a polarity switch is obvious.

However,  the necessity of it being a separate mixer object is debatable. I'd more often use Hi- and Lo-Pass Filters, so do these deserve a spot too ? And while we're here, give us a full fledged EQ, and Dynamics too. See where this is heading ?

Actually I prefer a leaner and cleaner surface and whoever wants the option to flip polarity is excused to go searching for a you-know-what plug in.

Edited July 15, 2023 by fuzzfilth

[ev9sej4m]

I somehow doubt this will be implemented. I guess the best bet is to have the gain plugin at the top level of your plugin menu. 

[Joe Lonsdale]

1 hour ago, fuzzfilth said:

The usefulness of a polarity switch is obvious.

However,  the necessity of it being a separate mixer object is debatable. I'd more often use Hi- and Lo-Pass Filters, so do these deserve a spot too ? And while we're here, give us a full fledged EQ, and Dynamics too. See where this is heading ?

Actually I prefer a leaner and cleaner surface and whoever wants the option to flip polarity is excused to go searching for a you-know-what plug in.

There used to be such hi-pass filters on the channel strip in Logic 4 (I think).

Everyone needs a polarity invert button, they just haven't realised its magic yet... 😉

[fuzzfilth]

31 minutes ago, Joe Lonsdale said:

hi-pass filters on the channel strip in Logic 4 (I think).

They never were.

[Joe Lonsdale]

44 minutes ago, fuzzfilth said:

They never were.

Pretty sure there were, I remember being annoyed when they disappeared! I can't quite remember the configuration, but I think they were in a little window at the top of each channel strip... I'm pretty sure I'm not going mad.

Hmmm... Not a very clear shot but you can see them on this screen grab from Emagic Logic 5, set in thru mode.

Never doubt me again!!!!

[fuzzfilth]

16 minutes ago, Joe Lonsdale said:

Never doubt me again!!!!

I won''t. Yet, a polarity button I won't grant you.

Edited July 15, 2023 by fuzzfilth

[Joe Lonsdale]

1 hour ago, fuzzfilth said:

I won''t. Yet, a polarity button I won't grant you.

That's fine, as long as I'm right.

[sunbrother]

5 hours ago, fuzzfilth said:

 

The necessity of it being a separate mixer object is debatable. I'd more often use Hi- and Lo-Pass Filters, so do these deserve a spot too ? ... See where this is heading ?

What a nightmare 😀 If it's heading towards the ability to show a nearly-full-fledged mixer then I say well done Apple. I think it would be great, sans EQ and Dynamics since their routing changes too often, and a fixed implementation would actually be inefficient.

Edited July 15, 2023 by sunbrother

[Joe Lonsdale]

I can't see a reason why we can't choose exactly what we see on each channel, we can already customise it to some extent. I would DEFINETLY like a hi-pass on each channel and, hell, why not, a compressor! If your gonna do a channel strip, then DO a channel strip! Bur I agree that everyone wants something different...

[ev9sej4m]

You can set the high pass as the default setting on the logic eq. This way it would only be one click on the EQ area to enable high pass. 

[Atlas007]

I totally agree with @fuzzfilth...

 

Personally I prefer the way it is presently which allow way more flexibility.

BTW what is wrong by using template or patche/channelstrip presets?

 

[Joe Lonsdale]

1 hour ago, Atlas007 said:

I totally agree with @fuzzfilth...

Personally I prefer the way it is presently which allow way more flexibility.

BTW what is wrong by using template or patche/channelstrip presets?

I'm not sure how adding a polarity button makes things less flexible, especially as we already have an Input Monitor which I bet many people don't use. It would be nice to be able to choose what we see at the bottom of the channel strip, and I want a polarity invert button 😉

[Atlas007]

3 hours ago, Joe Lonsdale said:

I want a polarity invert button

I think you made that clear.

But if I refer to your initial post: what is wrong by using template or patche/channelstrip presets instead?

[Joe Lonsdale]

3 hours ago, Atlas007 said:

I think you made that clear.

But if I refer to your initial post: what is wrong by using template or patche/channelstrip presets instead?

Nothing wrong, but this is a feature request thread and my feature request is for a flippin' polarity invert button! It's not incredibly helpful to be told a million reasons why I'm wrong to want that! 😉

[des99]

53 minutes ago, Joe Lonsdale said:

It's not incredibly helpful to be told a million reasons why I'm wrong to want that!

"I don't agree" is not the same as "You're wrong", btw... 😉

[Atlas007]

5 hours ago, Joe Lonsdale said:

Nothing wrong, but this is a feature request thread and my feature request is for a flippin' polarity invert button! It's not incredibly helpful to be told a million reasons why I'm wrong to want that! 😉

I understand…

[Joe Lonsdale]

20 hours ago, des99 said:

"I don't agree" is not the same as "You're wrong", btw... 😉

Correct, but you cannot disagree that I would like a polarity invert button, you can only assert that you don't want it or that you think it would be too fussy, which is fine.

Would one more greyed out button REALLY make this overwhelmingly complex though (especially if you can disable it in Channel Strip Components):

For people that record or mix drums, bass guitar and other real instruments or stack samples (almost everyone?), having the ability flip the polarity of a track is critical, that's why almost all professional mixing desks have it and software like Slate Trigger or BFD have it: layering requires phase consideration.

In my experience, people who "don't need a polarity button" often just haven't yet discovered how useful it is and could be EQ'ing unnecessarily when the optimum solution is often adjusting phase (my experience is teaching music technology at masters level to highly motivated groups of talented DAW users). I'm aware that might have sounded patronising 😉 

Anyway, it remains a feature request from me 🙂

[des99]

7 minutes ago, Joe Lonsdale said:

Correct, but you cannot disagree that I would like a polarity invert button, you can only assert that you don't want it or that you think it would be too fussy, which is fine.

Exactly, which is what I did, above. 🙂

7 minutes ago, Joe Lonsdale said:

Would one more greyed out button REALLY make this overwhelmingly complex though (especially if you can disable it in Channel Strip Components):

Well, you seem to find one green "Read" text, versus a white "Read" text, somewhat distracting 😉, so yes, I'm sure you can see that others might find such an extra button, that's just clutter to them, distracting.

As already said, I'm fine with it as long as it was a configurable item.

Personally, I like my channel strips to be more console-like, so I use channel strip plugins per channel, which include basic console EQ, compression, gating, phase buttons etc, and I can choose the "flavour" of those per project/track - so I have all those features, and don't particularly want Logic adding more vanilla features duplicating those into the mixer window. Other people may like it. We're all a bit different in our needs, tastes and workflows.

9 minutes ago, Joe Lonsdale said:

For people that record or mix drums, bass guitar and other real instruments or stack samples (almost everyone?), having the ability flip the polarity of a track is critical

And yet it's not a feature request that comes up here a lot, in my experience.

You're feature request is valid, so submit it to Apple. And realise that not everyone is going to have the same feature requests or workflows as you - and that's fine. No need to argue that they are all wrong... 😉

[Joe Lonsdale]

13 minutes ago, des99 said:

Exactly, which is what I did, above. 🙂

Well, you seem to find one green "Read" text, versus a white "Read" text, somewhat distracting 😉, so yes, I'm sure you can see that others might find such an extra button, that's just clutter to them, distracting.

As already said, I'm fine with it as long as it was a configurable item.

Personally, I like my channel strips to be more console-like, so I use channel strip plugins per channel, which include basic console EQ, compression, gating, phase buttons etc, and I can choose the "flavour" of those per project/track - so I have all those features, and don't particularly want Logic adding more vanilla features duplicating those into the mixer window. Other people may like it. We're all a bit different in our needs, tastes and workflows.

And yet it's not a feature request that comes up here a lot, in my experience.

You're feature request is valid, so submit it to Apple. And realise that not everyone is going to have the same feature requests or workflows as you - and that's fine. No need to argue that they are all wrong... 😉

I have just submitted it (again!) - I am obviously in the minority on this subject 😉

[skillzmcgavern]

On 7/17/2023 at 10:06 AM, Joe Lonsdale said:

I have just submitted it (again!) - I am obviously in the minority on this subject 😉

You're not.

[Holger Lagerfeldt]

An optional polarity invert Ø as part of the channel strip, at the very top, would be great. Makes total sense, as long as it's optional.

And while they're at it, they should rename "phase invert" in the Gain plug-in to "polarity invert".

[David Nahmani]

Just now, Holger Lagerfeldt said:

they should rename "phase invert" in the Gain plug-in to "polarity invert".

Totally agree. I always thought I was the only one bothered by this. 😂

[Holger Lagerfeldt]

Haha 😄

I once got a hardware producer to switch out a button that said "phase left ch.". They sent me the new button:

[skillzmcgavern]

2 hours ago, Holger Lagerfeldt said:

An optional polarity invert Ø as part of the channel strip, at the very top, would be great. Makes total sense, as long as it's optional.

And while they're at it, they should rename "phase invert" in the Gain plug-in to "polarity invert".

Good point - just submitted a feature request with that specific concern. When labeled properly it will inevitably help reduce general phase/polarity confusion.