markno999 Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 9 hours ago, FLH3 said: I totaly agree about the stereo panning. I've never understood why balance is the default mode in Logic. This default choice should be set in the preferences menu. Good question, they probably left it that way because it was long the Default when there was no other option? As you say, at the least it should there should be a choice in Preferences menu. I suspect older projects mixed in Balanced Mode would open with that Balanced setting, or, perhaps that is the problem? Good question for the Devs. IMHO, it is not a good default to lock in. Regards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rAC Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 Do I hear a feature request coming? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studioj Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 (edited) fwiw, as someone who has been moving between PT and Logic regularly for over 2 decades, I have thought from maybe Pro Tools 8 or so, that Pro Tools sounded "better" than Logic on playback. While the two tools can provide identical math in the way they sum signals and export audio files that will null, I think the live playback between the two environments is subtly different... Logic somehow feeling a little edgier and thinner to put it simply. 20 years ago I used to think the same between Logic and DP, that DP had better depth and imaging. That being said it was never a difference great enough that kept me from using Logic and I think killer sounding results can be had with all these platforms. Sometime in the last decade I recall reading Hans Zimmer saying something similar about Logic as compared to Cubase. Maybe it's all psychoacoustic, hard to know since I've never done any scientific tests. but I've done thousands of projects on each platform and that is definitely my assessment... perhaps it's a panning thing, perhaps not. I think the real way to test it would be to capture the live playback from each via analog conversion with identical playback and recording converters and compare the resulting files but it has never been important enough to me to bother... Edited January 11 by studioj Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polanoid Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 (edited) 7 hours ago, studioj said: the real way to test it would be to capture the live playback from each via analog conversion Not via analog conversion, one would need to capture the digital stream the two DAWs output, as they have no control over what happens during D/A conversion (that would be your audio hardware). Also, you can’t do any meaningful phase cancellation test after D/A conversion Edited January 11 by polanoid 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Nahmani Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 7 hours ago, studioj said: I think the live playback between the two environments is subtly different I'm not entirely sure what you mean by that, but Logic produces the exact same zeroes and ones during live playback and during bouncing. And so does Pro Tools. If one of them didn't, that would mean that what you're hearing during live playback is not exactly the same as what gets bounced to the audio file, which would be a serious flaw in an audio app - no matter how subtle the difference. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Banan Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 On 1/8/2024 at 5:53 PM, markno999 said: Good question, they probably left it that way because it was long the Default when there was no other option? As you say, at the least it should there should be a choice in Preferences menu. I suspect older projects mixed in Balanced Mode would open with that Balanced setting, or, perhaps that is the problem? Good question for the Devs. IMHO, it is not a good default to lock in. Regards Not exactly what you wish for, I know, but for a temporary work around. Save your Channelstrip with Stereo Pan as a Patch Define as default Create Channestrip(s) checking ”Load as Default Patch". 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Nahmani Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 1 minute ago, Dan Banan said: Save your Channelstrip with Stereo Pan as a Patch Define as default Create Channestrip(s) checking ”Load as Default Patch". That's a great workaround! 😀 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studioj Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 6 hours ago, David Nahmani said: I'm not entirely sure what you mean by that, but Logic produces the exact same zeroes and ones during live playback and during bouncing. And so does Pro Tools. If one of them didn't, that would mean that what you're hearing during live playback is not exactly the same as what gets bounced to the audio file, which would be a serious flaw in an audio app - no matter how subtle the difference. I hear you, but I think there is something going on in the live real time rendering of audio that is subtly different between software. If they all did exactly the same thing all the time, wouldn't it affect our systems the same way as well? And I am quite certain Logic is more efficient with processing than other DAWs when using the same plugins. I realize you're talking about real time bounce vs offline, but that's not quite what I'm saying... I acknowledge that the bounce, whether it is offline or real time will be identical (ideally). considering people like Zimmer and Ryan Tedder are making similar judgments, I don't think this is something to discount. But I also don't think it has real world implications / consequences. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polanoid Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 1 hour ago, studioj said: live real time rendering What would that be exactly? if the digital output stream of a DAW differs from the result of bouncing the project, that would be a serious bug in the software. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fisherking Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 1 hour ago, studioj said: considering people like Zimmer and Ryan Tedder are making similar judgments, I don't think this is something to discount. But I also don't think it has real world implications / consequences. 2 people, expressing opinions, not sharing technical data, actual facts. and personally, i don't care if it's zimmer or a 2-year old; opinions remain: opinions. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FLH3 Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 8 hours ago, polanoid said: one would need to capture the digital stream the two DAWs Done on page one. Result: Silence. Nevertheless my methodology was maybe wrong, science needs contradictory experiences. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polanoid Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 3 hours ago, FLH3 said: Done on page one. Result: Silence. Nevertheless my methodology was maybe wrong, science needs contradictory experiences. Hard to do anything wrong there. If you subtract a number from another number and the result is zero, the two numbers must necessarily have been the same. Same goes for a stream of numbers. Not much science behind that I’d say, except first grade arithmetics. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markno999 Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 OP asked, "Does Pro Tools sound better than Logic?" One suggested difference in "quality" or result was Pan vs Balance control. Logic defaults to Balance Control on Stereo Tracks or Stereo Bus, not stereo Pan. ProTools default mode is true Stereo Pan. In this video below, Chris at Why Logic Pro Rules presents the differences between Balance (Logic Default) and true Stereo Pan Control further demonstrating the differences with audio examples. I mentioned above my own experience with a ProTools session sounding massively different than a Logic session using the exact same template settings, until figuring out that Pan vs Balance was the only difference. Correcting the setting resulted in both sessions sounding identical. The #1 Logic Pro Mistake When Panning Stereo Tracks https://whylogicprorules.com/balance-vs-pan-stereo-tracks/ Regards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
des99 Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 Indeed, when one endeavours to make a proper test, there is no quality difference that really makes a difference. However, doing a proper test isn't necessary simple, and a lot of people get it wrong by not understanding these kind of behavioural differences, and setting up the test projects to mitigate these. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markno999 Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 55 minutes ago, des99 said: Indeed, when one endeavours to make a proper test, there is no quality difference that really makes a difference. However, doing a proper test isn't necessary simple, and a lot of people get it wrong but no understanding these kind of behavioural differences, and setting up the test projects to mitigate these. Very true statement. Fortunately there is no need for anyone to test these theories if they have already been tested:) I am really a little at a loss as to why Apple's Default is Balance, not Stereo Pan. I worked with Logic for many years before noticing this was even a thing. It adds a confusing element for people that may be new to Logic if they are used to a traditional Stereo Pan behavior, i.e. "why does my stereo track sound so thin when I Pan it?" Chris does a fantastic job describing the not so nuanced differences between the options. Regards 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FLH3 Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 (edited) In our short History of recording things, stereo pan behavior is not "the norm". The norm is a mono track with a balance. A track, a channel strip. When you have L+R track, well you have the choice, either mute/reduce volume on one side or have a balance on each of theses 2 channel strips and twisting them. But like many of us I deeeeeply regret that the stereo pan is not the default setting on a stereo track in Logic. It easily could be a preference setting. Hey, Apple, what are you thinking about that? Beside I still not understand why "real-pros-who-use-ProTools-as-we-are-real-pros-and-Logic-is-for-amateur-hairdressers" had any difficulties to hear and see the difference between a balance and a stereo pan. The Great Mysterieeees... 😁 Sorry. Edited February 23 by FLH3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polanoid Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 11 minutes ago, FLH3 said: Hey, Apple, what are you thinking about that? I guess it's better to ask them via https://www.apple.com/feedback/logic-pro/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markno999 Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 8 minutes ago, FLH3 said: In our short History of recording things, stereo pan behavior is not "the norm". The norm is a mono track with a balance. A track, a channel strip. True, which is how a mono track behaves in Logic as well, which only adds to the mystery as to why they switch to Balance mode when going to a Stereo Aux, Bus, etc.. 11 minutes ago, FLH3 said: It easily could be a preference setting. Hey, Apple, what are you thinking about that? Should be, that would be terrific. 13 minutes ago, FLH3 said: Beside I still not understand why "real-pros-who-use-ProTools-as-we-are-real-pros-and-Logic-is-for-amateur-hairdressers" had any difficulties to hear and see the difference between a balance and a stereo pan. The Great Mysterieeees... 😁 Is that still a thing? Funny. Regards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markno999 Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 Here's a direct link to the video mentioned above. I see above I only linked to the article. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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