Does Pro Tools sound better than Logic?

[ColbyKeyz]

I was watching the Ryan Tedder master class and he said he loves Logic but he's forced to use Pro Tools because the sound quality is better. He said he tried everything to match it in Logic even talking to Apple Logic support directly but couldnt find a fix to match the sound he gets in Pro Tools. I recently bought pro tools and I definitely hear what he's talking about but the workflow in Pro Tools for producing is terrible.

Any thoughts/solutions for this or do different DAWs just sound different (ex: FL Studio drums are known to hit harder etc..)

[sunbrother]

Bus clipping does sound different in Pro Tools and Logic. As far as my knowledge goes, that's where any likable differences between DAWs' sounds generally come from. A little tasteful clipping here and there can sound really nice. There's a wide variety of ways to simulate it with inserts, just don't overdo it.

With the FL Studio example, I haven't used it much but when I did I felt like something about its workflow made it rather easy to end up slamming the master bus. I've used a clipper on my drum bus to get a sound like that before.

Edited January 5 by sunbrother

[loukash]

5 hours ago, sunbrother said:

Bus clipping does sound different in Pro Tools and Logic.

Huh?
If there's clipping on the bus itself, then something might be very wrong with the signal flow…

5 hours ago, ColbyKeyz said:

he loves Logic but he's forced to use Pro Tools because the sound quality is better.

"Sound quality" of what? The plugins?
The signal flow itself should always be neutral by all means. 

[fisherking]

audio in = audio out. everything else depends on the source, the effects, etc. 

i recently got a month of PT so i could export files out from a client so i could mix in logic. subjectively, everything sounded the same (raw audio) in both DAWs. plus, what one does with the music shapes it of course. the rest is just worth an hysterical youtube video...

[des99]

You'd need something more concrete to go on than "Someone said PT sounds better, so I tried PT and yes, I hear it!" because there's a lot of expectation bias going on there and us ol' human beens are very easily fooled.

The maths to mix together numbers in a floating point environment are well understood and all DAWs do this properly.

In the past, (I mean, after the times when PT used a fixed point engine and really did sound bad), people who thought Logic sounded worse than PT were just misunderstanding a key difference in the way pan laws were set up differently (and Logic didn't have any way to change this). So when people found it was just easier to get satisfying mixes in PT compared to Logic, the takeaway was that somehow the "sound quality is better in PT".

When Logic's pan laws became configurable and you could set them closer to what PT did by default, all of a sudden those people found fewer differences in "sound quality".

(I can't remember offhand, but I'm not sure Logics' pan laws have an identical option to PT's behaviour. Worth checking if you want to investigate.)

Note that all this has been exhaustively tested online before. Search for the awesome dawsum test, when people took the same raw tracks and set up the same project in multiple DAWs to see whether, processing/plugins etc aside, there is some innate "sound quality" difference between DAWs. And guess what - there wasn't. There is no magic going on, all the DAWs are doing the same maths (unless they are broken), and they all sound the same.

The situation is more complex when you have DAW-specific features (eg, you're mixing with DAW-unique plugins) as the variables expand very quickly, and the way the interface and workflow shapes the result is also a factor.

But some notion that some DAWs just have some undefinable magic going on just hasn't proved to be true on investigation, regardless of what someone might "feel" working with them. That doesn't mean that these feelings aren't valid - if you feel you get better sounding results using a different tool, then use that tool. But it isn't necessarily a reflection on some indefinable "sound quality" thing - it's just that tool is getting you closer to your goals, and likely for more squishy "human reasons" than technical ones. Imo.

[sunbrother]

2 hours ago, loukash said:

Huh?
If there's clipping on the bus itself, then something might be very wrong with the signal flow…

You’re correct that if signal flow is ideal then there will be no difference. It’s not my main DAW so I’m not an authority but from my understanding when one is using a DSP-based Pro tools system there will occasionally be small amounts of clipping on the TDM bus when you bounce in place and do some other actions. In Logic, with Overload Protection, this process is always neutral. It’s a side effect of using DSP power and is likely not meant to be some kind of magic, nor do I think it is. If one wants to clip a track, bus, or the master there are plenty of plugins for it. I’m not sure about the idea of popping open a DAW and “hearing it” immediately but someone with a PT DSP system could definitely get used to the sound of it over the years.

And @des99 is correct, the rest of the difference can be chalked up to pan laws.

Edited January 5 by sunbrother

[Tankfield]

1 hour ago, des99 said:

There is no magic going on, all the DAWs are doing the same maths (unless they are broken), and they all sound the same.

DAWs all sound the same, but there's a suggestion in this thread on Gearspace that MacOS CoreAudio can degrade the quality of the audio output and that Pro Tools, for example can avoid this problem by using its own hardware.

I have no idea if this a valid point.

[loukash]

43 minutes ago, Tankfield said:

this thread on Gearspace

… and down the rabbit hole.
Scrolled through page 1 and got headache already. 
Eh, I better go and play some bass guitar instead. :D 

Edited January 5 by loukash

[des99]

For that thread, there is lots of speculation, but very little actual findings. It’s interesting, but not exactly conclusive or convincing.

People are generally feeling that because CA has a “mixing layer”, that a direct connection to the interface avoids, this is where the supposed degradation occurs. And yes, we can see that if CA has to do complex tasks here, signals will be changed - eg mixing multiple sources at different sample rates together.

However, with one source, at the current sample rate (so no SRC is required - SRC to the same sample rate is not a thing), CA should pass those signals bit accurate and unchanged (as apparently Apple have always claimed).

So either it does, or it doesn’t, which should be testable.

[sunbrother]

27 minutes ago, des99 said:

For that thread, there is lots of speculation, but very little actual findings. It’s interesting, but not exactly conclusive or convincing.

People are generally feeling that because CA has a “mixing layer”, that a direct connection to the interface avoids, this is where the supposed degradation occurs. And yes, we can see that if CA has to do complex tasks here, signals will be changed - eg mixing multiple sources at different sample rates together.

However, with one source, at the current sample rate (so no SRC is required - SRC to the same sample rate is not a thing), CA should pass those signals bit accurate and unchanged (as apparently Apple have always claimed).

So either it does, or it doesn’t, which should be testable.

Well, that's why I mentioned that "likable differences" are going to probably be due to a lot of small instances of unintentional clipping. Pan laws are differences in setups which can be corrected and CoreAudio is probably a rather negligible difference.

I don't think it's magic (there's nothing magical about clipping), to me it's more like proof that tiny bits of clipping throughout a project can sound good. It's just a possible sound. Although it's a very small difference and can be achieved in easier ways than switching DAWs, buying a DSP setup, and bouncing too hot 🙂

Edited January 5 by sunbrother

[markno999]

Went down this rabbit hole and Des is correct, Panning is the difference.  Not Pan Laws (both DAWs are -3db by default) but Pan behavior.

Long story short, created an "Identical" mix template in Logic Pro and PT.    PT mix sounded better with exact same plugins, plugin settings, panning, levels, etc...   PT mix sounded fuller, louder, more midrange and punch,  and overall better.  Looked at whether AAX plugins were superior, broke down routing paths but could find no differences until finally discovering the difference kind of by accident, pan behavior. 

Mono Tracks pan exactly the same in PT and Logic, however, Stereo Tracks do not.  By default, Logic panning on Stereo Tracks is a balance control, not a true stereo pan.   This makes a difference on how levels are treated and how they are perceived - you can easily test for yourself.   Load an Apple Audio or MIDI Loop and play with the pan knob in both Balance Mode and Stereo Pan and you can hear the difference and it isn't subtle.   I think Apple introduced Stereo Pan feature around 2018 or so.

Back to long story above, changed panning to Stereo Pan in Logic Pro template, now PT and Logic template mixes sound identical.

Chris from Why Logic Pro Rules explains here:   https://whylogicprorules.com/true-stereo-panning/

Regards

[FLH3]

It's very diificult for me to imagine a DAW "sounding better" than an other one on the same computer with the same audio interface and with the same exact audio settings.

But I'm not an audiophile bat, I cannot hear the difference between a standard AC cable and a rare-hearth-monocristaline-dopped-copper AC cable for my amplifier.

😁

[fisherking]

6 minutes ago, FLH3 said:

It's very diificult for me to imagine a DAW "sounding better" than an other one on the same computer with the same audio interface and with the same exact audio settings.

But I'm not an audiophile bat, I cannot hear the difference between a standard AC cable and a rare-hearth-monocristaline-dopped-copper AC cable for my amplifier.

😁

not to brag, but i can hear the sonic difference between both of those AC cables by simply holding each cable up to my ear....   

[FLH3]

Great! Unfortunatly for me the distance between my 2 ears is to big, I can't have a phase in the left ear and the other phase in the right ear, which is the real audiophile way to test gears.

A pitty.

Maybe I should try other orifices to test them?

[Atlas007]

They really sound different when used as whipping devices… 😖

[oscwilde]

6 hours ago, fisherking said:

not to brag, but i can hear the sonic difference between both of those AC cables by simply holding each cable up to my ear....   

Before or after the snake oil bath?

[FLH3]

Snake oil lube?

Edited January 6 by FLH3

[Atlas007]

4 hours ago, FLH3 said:

Snake oil lube?

Where do we put this?🫣

[des99]

28 minutes ago, Atlas007 said:

Where do we put this?

On the snake, obviously...

[fisherking]

23 hours ago, oscwilde said:

Before or after the snake oil bath?

you already know the answer: during...

[des99]

Or just RTFSM…

[Dr.Socrates]

On 1/5/2024 at 6:35 PM, markno999 said:

 

Chris from Why Logic Pro Rules explains here:   https://whylogicprorules.com/true-stereo-panning/

Regards

Just a tiny detail, for those of you who follow Chris' descriptions. Chris, talking about Logic 10.3, says that: 

Quote

And to adjust the Stereo Width of your track, grab the left or right-most handle:

  

But, at least in Logic Pro 10.8, this is not the case. Grabbing the right (as well as the left) "white dot" at the end of the green line (see the left-most picture above), does not (only) adjust stereo width, but instead both adjusts stereo width and pans to either side (see center picture above). To only adjust stereo width in 10.8, instead click the grey area in between the white end points, and drag to adjust. This will adjust the stereo width (equally on both sides), without panning (see the right-most picture above)

Perhaps my description is not very clear, but try it out for yourselves, and it will be easy enough. 

Thanks for many funny comments above, and sorry for being a party pooper going into minute details. Hope it helps someone. 

Edited January 7 by Dr.Socrates
grammar

[Atlas007]

As per reference to the documentation, dragging vertically on the green (not grey) arc (between the two white dots) will adjust the width of stereo is available in Logic since at least v.10.5...

[FLH3]

In order to know if PT "sounds better" than LPX I think we have to check first if PT sounds different.

Consequently we've to use the good old method of the null test.

In the link hereafter you'll find 2 wave files, 30 seconds of white noise at -12db, one was bounced with Logic and the other one with Protools, on the same machine. You just have to play them in phase opposition in your favorite DAW and let us know the result.

https://file.io/wwVohhvhHHcX

(Sorry to spoil but to be perfectly honnest with you I've to say I've heard the beauty of the infinite silences. Did I something wrong?)

Edited January 7 by FLH3

[Dr.Socrates]

11 hours ago, Atlas007 said:

As per reference to the documentation, dragging vertically on the green (not grey) arc (between the two white dots) will adjust the width of stereo is available in Logic since at least v.10.5...

Yes, you are right! Thank you, @Atlas007! 

[steinweg]

On 1/5/2024 at 8:53 AM, ColbyKeyz said:

I was watching the Ryan Tedder master class and he said he loves Logic but he's forced to use Pro Tools because the sound quality is better. He said he tried everything to match it in Logic even talking to Apple Logic support directly but couldnt find a fix to match the sound he gets in Pro Tools. I recently bought pro tools and I definitely hear what he's talking about but the workflow in Pro Tools for producing is terrible.

Interesting, i have not seen it (except the trailer), but doesn't he use primarily ableton for the production part? Does he go in any detail about his view on ableton vs logic?

[FLH3]

8 hours ago, FLH3 said:

In the link hereafter you'll find 2 wave files, 30 seconds of white noise at -12db, one was bounced with Logic and the other one with Protools, on the same machine. You just have to play them in phase opposition in your favorite DAW and let us know the result.

https://file.io/wwVohhvhHHcX

 

Sorry, I've chosen the wrong file free hosting service, this one should work longer: https://fastupload.io/1KYLFX73UX6HQHD/file

Edited January 7 by FLH3

[markno999]

10 hours ago, FLH3 said:

In order to know if PT "sounds better" than LPX I think we have to check first if PT sounds different.

Consequently we've to use the good old method of the null test.

I don't think anyone in this thread has actually suggested or supported that PT sounds better than Logic except the reference in the OP post about Ryan Tedder's opinion from his Master Class, which was posed as a question by the OP.

These null tests have been argued Ad infinitum.   I think the real point in this thread is the one Des started, which is 100% valid and testable.  How could PT and Logic mixes sound different if everything is equal?  If you compare default PT stereo pan behavior (True Stereo Pan) to default Logic Pro pan behavior (Balance Control Pan) the differences are vast.   Take and in-phase stereo guitar track with True Stereo panning all the way right or left and then compare to an in-phase Balance Control pan.  True Stereo pan is full, punchy and loud.   Balance Control pan is thinner, weaker, and softer.

True Stereo Pan moves the whole stereo track image to whichever side you are panning to, while Balance Control Pan simply reduces the level on whichever side you are panning away from.    Huge difference in behavior and explains why this perception even exists between PT and Logic.   Also the reason many Logic Pro audio mixers of the past used the Direction Mixer, or other Pan Utilities on their tracks to mimic this PT true stereo panning behavior prior to Logic Pro having the native feature.

I guarantee if you do a null test on a stereo track with default pan settings in PT and Logic Pro, and make any changes to the pan direction you will not hear silence.  Mono yes, they will will null out, but not Stereo if you make any changes to pan direction.  Now, if you change the default  Logic Balance Control Pan to Stereo Pan they will null as well unless you start messing around with the White handles described in Dr.Socrates post above.  

So I don't think any serious person would conclude PT "sounds better' than Logic Pro, rather, they might ask whether there reasons why a particular PT configuration or setting would sound different or perceived as better than Logic.   In this case, I believe the answer is that for most people the Stereo Pan setting in Logic is going to give them the result they are looking for.    I have changed all my Logic Pro templates to Stereo Panning for this reason.  

Balance Control panning (default Logic setting) is great for a stereo piano track where maybe the piano players hand is a little heavy on the right or left hand and you want to pan to balance out the levels(WhyLogicProRules video uses this scenario as an example )and how Logic's default pan behavior would be more advantageous than Stereo pan to correct this type of problem.   I do also prefer Balance Control pan on Orchestral tracks, but any pop, rock, country, etc.. always defaulting to Stereo Pan these days.

Regards

[fisherking]

all i know is... a good song/mix done in pro tools trumps a bad song/mix done in logic... and vice versa. so much of this is how the tools are used, the song, the performances, the engineer, the mixer. 

logic works for me, on every level. the rest is on me, and that's fine 👍

[FLH3]

 

I totaly agree about the stereo panning. I've never understood why balance is the default mode in Logic.  This default choice should be set in the preferences menu.

I think more than "the sound", the vibration of the air, I think everybody agree with that, it's the behaviour of the tool, its GUI, etc..., hence the behaviour of the user of this tool then the final result.

You achieve something differently with different tools. Especialy as we speak about "thin and delicate things", details in the margin. The pannings but also many other things.

You'll not have the same mix with Cubase, LPX, Live, Reaper or PT because you'll not act identicaly with them. And you'll achieve a different result with Luna too.

And keep in mind that PT was not, at its very basis, the same tool as all the others, it's a "multitrack tape machine", not a sequencer.

Edited January 8 by FLH3