Is Logic the highest learning curve DAW?

[globet]

I’ve noticed many Mac users prefer to use Ableton / FL Studios instead of Logic. When asked, their answers are always vague. It appears Logic’s logic is much more difficult to wrap your head around?

Edited March 14 by globet

[fuzzfilth]

There is no single answer to this question, it all depends on the purpose for which the software is used, and this is a vast field. My Logic use will differ so fundamentally from yours that you may not recognize which software I'm using. Point in case:

I may be into that and at the same time have no idea about preparing a readable score, while someone else may do the exact opposite. So while I can whip out an Environment like the above with one hand tied behind my back (not really, it's a tiny bit more involved, but you get my point), and still find using the Score Editor 'difficult', someone else will be able to easily make the lines and dots look pretty and fail miserably when asked to create one fader.

So you'd need to specify which area you find difficult or not.

[globet]

If you are using a Mac there’s very little to choose any other DAWs over the native MacOS Logic? Only logical reason is Logics too hard to learn and it’s far less intuitive. For example, FL Studios doesn’t even run smoothly on a Mac, it’s full of bugs and crashes often. 

 

[wonshu]

Really? Sounds like you're looking for excuses...

- ProTools
- Ableton Live
- Cubase
- Bitwig
- Reaper
- Ardour
- FrutiyLoops

Just off the top of my head.

Maybe there is something that suits you better?

[David Nahmani]

It's fairly easy to get started working in Logic Pro and getting a grasp of the fundamentals so that you can start producing music right away, and at the same time, there's so much functionality under the hood that there's no end in sight to the amount of knowledge you can gather about the program, should you need or wish to go further with it. 

What I just wrote could be said of Alchemy alone. 😄 

[fuzzfilth]

So, there *is* a single answer to this question 😃

[Zipfunk]

1 hour ago, David Nahmani said:

It's fairly easy to get started working in Logic Pro and getting a grasp of the fundamentals so that you can start producing music right away, and at the same time, there's so much functionality under the hood that there's no end in sight to the amount of knowledge you can gather about the program, should you need or wish to go further with it. 

What I just wrote could be said from Alchemy alone. 😄 

Spot on. Recording an audio guitar track with a drum beat and bass etc (where I started) was easy for a beginner like me. 
I realized pretty quickly there was no end as far as learning Logic. 

@David Nahmani you’re exactly right (obviously 🤣) with Alchemy. Four possible samples that can be added granular, additive, etc. is endless. Factor in that you can right click on any parameter and link it to any MSEG, sequencer, LFO, etc boggles the mind.

@globetwhen I first realized Logic had no end in sight as far as possibilities my game plan was (and still is) to learn one new thing in Logic every session. You’ll be surprised how fast you amass Logic knowledge and experience. The other option is to use what you need for each session and don’t think about how much there is to the program. It’s your DAW to record YOUR music, not something you have to know everything about. 
Being a ‘completist’ and trying to know everything isn’t going to happen. (I’m not saying that’s what you’re trying to do). Take what you need for each session, learn something new, check out one or two YouTubers that know what they’re talking about, not every YouTuber. 
and the biggest safety net, for me at least, is this forum. Other than one other (home automation) forum I can think of, this forum has the fastest response, best advice, and nicest most patient help.

just my two cents that now looks like a buck-o-five. 
 

Drew

[globet]

This forum is pretty much like a chatroom

[fuzzfilth]

17 minutes ago, globet said:

This forum is pretty much like a chatroom

Not sure if this is good or bad ?

[Zipfunk]

32 minutes ago, globet said:

This forum is pretty much like a chatroom

I disagree. Yes, many posts end with pleasant banter after the problem has been solved but it's always business first. At least in the forums designed to solve user issues. 

There's enough forums here (The Lounge, Music Showcase, Composition and Creativity) where chatting is more appropriate. 

[globet]

49 minutes ago, fuzzfilth said:

Not sure if this is good or bad ?

This is my reply to 

3 hours ago, Zipfunk said:

biggest safety net, for me at least, is this forum. Other than one other (home automation) forum I can think of, this forum has the fastest response, best advice, and nicest most patient help.

 

31 minutes ago, Zipfunk said:

I disagree. Yes, many posts end with pleasant banter after the problem has been solved but it's always business first. At least in the forums designed to solve user issues. 

There's enough forums here (The Lounge, Music Showcase, Composition and Creativity) where chatting is more appropriate. 

Sorry for my incomplete sentence. I was reference to a previous post:

3 hours ago, Zipfunk said:

biggest safety net, for me at least, is this forum. Other than one other (home automation) forum I can think of, this forum has the fastest response, best advice, and nicest most patient help.

 

[MikeRobinson]

Y'know, I'd just say: "don't blame the software." 😀

And, in this segment of the computing world, don't expect any(!) of it not to come without a very-substantial learning curve ... no matter how much "sugar" the various marketing departments try to put on it.

Even today's "open source" DAWs do a very good job, but guess what: "they have a big 'learning curve' also." ("After you begin to scratch," at least.)

The complexity comes from the intrinsic(!) nature of what the software – in every case – is trying to do.

Also: if you are participating on a project in which "Product-X [Version-Y]" is the standard ... well, that's precisely what you shall use. Either your Macintosh can do it, or you will invest in a compatible computer that will ... and write the whole thing off on your taxes [legitimately ...] as a business expense.

Edited March 18 by MikeRobinson

[des99]

Actually, for a DAW, the learning curve of getting going, along with the sounds it comes with, mean it's pretty accessible for new users, especially as you get get started with the free-for-everyone Garageband, and move up as your needs grow.

Starting someone out with Cubase, ProTools or Bitwig or something is no picnic either...

[Yalopa]

Funny, I dropped Ableton 8/9 and moved to logic because I found that Abletons “learning curve” was to steep. Or was it because i had the idea that logic better fit my workflow.  I’m doing things wit logic I could not imagine doing with Ableton.  Is that because logic is easier, or is that because I have 6? extra years of experience in working with daws?

Personally I believe it the latter, and I’m pretty confident that if I now have to go back to Ableton I could do most of what I’m doing in Logic Pro today
 

in the end, years ago I had the choice, pay the Ableton upgrade, knowing every 3 years I would pay, or simply pay a similar amount once and have the latest Logic Pro forever.

Edited March 19 by Yalopa

[globet]

The funny observation that caused me to ask this question is seeing Mac users choosing to not use Logic. 
 

What could be the reason?

I mean is there a functionality / feature that a certain DAW has that other DAWs tries to mimic / replicate but couldn’t?

Edited March 19 by globet

[wonshu]

ProTools - interoperability with large production facilities.

Bitwig - heaps of modulation options that don't exist anywhere else.

Ableton Live - rock solid and performant live system.

Cubase - I wouldn't know... compatibility with Hans Zimmer?

Reaper - feature set and customizability

There are tons of reasons and they are different for every individual or specific production need.

I personally record multi-hour recordings in Reaper because it just does it and I can even add an additonal track for recording while 24 other tracks are already recording... huge benefit... but then I bring in the recordings into Logic...

[gacki]

Well, Ableton has traditionally been really, really good for loop-based workflows; and there's also Max for Live. Logic has caught up somewhat to this with the "Live Loops" functionality. So I can easily see people choosing Live over Logic (or similarly Bitwig over Logic).

For many other programs it might be what one grew up with or what is considered the standard in certain environments (see ProTools).

FL Studio? My experiences were a couple of years back. I would have to be paid serious money to work with that.

 

[ni guang xin]

i started writing music on iOS GarageBand, then MAC GarageBand, so Logic was not very difficult for me, recently i tried FL Studio and Ableton Live (I've heard these 2 softwares are beginner-friendly), fl and ableton are so difficult that I started to doubt my IQ !!!, so I guess all DAWs are pretty much the same in terms of learning curve, but after you learn one DAW, other DAWs will become counter-intuitive, thus feeling more difficult

Also i think it has something to do with MAC and WINDOWS, I'm a MAC guy, so I find logic intuitive, but for people who're used to WINDOWS, they probably would find logic (and mac os in general) weird

[fuzzfilth]

44 minutes ago, ni guang xin said:

after you learn one DAW, other DAWs will become counter-intuitive, thus feeling more difficult

Absolutely true.

[globet]

Might be because since Mac computers are so prevalent today, initially using Logic (or any DAW) might seem so daunting that they decided to try a different DAW thinking it might be easier.

[David Nahmani]

I started using Pro Tools because I worked in a studio that was using Pro Tools so I had to know it. Then when I decided to purchase a Mac and choose a DAW software to use at home, it seemed to make sense to get Pro Tools but back (1998) that would have meant spending at least $10k on a TDM system, so I looked elsewhere. All the pros I knew were using Digital Performer, but one friend of mine showed me Logic Platinum 4, and I liked how the interface looked, so I decided on that. So it's not like an insane amount of research went into that choice. 

My guess is, many people end up choosing their DAW that way. A friend uses one DAW and recommends it. Or they read an interview from an artist they respect who says they were using one DAW. 

Once you've spent some time learning a DAW, it becomes difficult to switch, so you really need a good reason to switch. 

For me, going from Pro Tools to Logic Pro was hard. I remember sitting there, wondering how you could select parts of regions, something trivial in Pro Tools. You just... couldn't do that in Logic Pro. There was no Marquee tool back then. You had to cut regions into parts. That seemed so counter-intuitive. But I stuck to it and learned Logic Pro really hard and used it intensively for one full year before I went back to a studio where I had to use Pro Tools. And guess what, I could no longer work in Pro Tools. I had become so accustomed to the workflow in Logic Pro that I was now lost in Pro Tools. 

And yes, there are things that Pro Tools does better than Logic Pro. Pro Tools was created to replace tape machines, and it has effectively replaced tape machines in pro studios. An engineer who used to punch in, punch out, do count-ins, keep re-recording a band from the same spot multiple times etc... on tape could do the same with ease in Pro Tools. Not in Logic. Now Logic has come a long way in that department, but it still does not behave like a tape machine, or like Pro Tools. There are still things that a PT user would struggle with in Logic. 

And the other way around is obviously true. Logic was created as a MIDI sequencer. There was no audio at first. Its time realm was always bars, and beats, and divisions, and ticks (where Pro Tools was thinking hours minutes seconds), and Logic thought in terms of BPMs. It's a composers tool first. And it still feels that way. 

Walk in a major recording studio, today and chances are you'll have a Pro Tools rig in the machine room, where the tape machine used to be, and chances are you'll see a producer in the control room, with a laptop running Logic Pro hooked up directly to the SSL board. 

[loukash]

I started with Logic Delta in 2001 which came bundled with an M-Audio soundcard that I bought for my then new PowerMac G4. That was pretty easy to use. Funnily enough, just last year I was still able to sell that antique soundcard to a "retro PC geek", including the original OEM discs with Logic Delta. The G4 died just a few months ago anyway, sigh…

Before that I had – in fact I still have – a small analog mobile home studio with an 8-track 1/2" Tascam 38 reel machine.

Around 2001 a buddy had Logic 4 Platinum, so after learning the basics with the Delta I was "somewhat" ready to go and work on a few projects at his place, one of which was co-producing and mixing a radio play series of about thirty half-an-hour episodes that eventually broadcasted on a local radio station. 

In 2004 I bought Logic Express 6, then upgraded to LE7, then upgraded to the last boxed version of Studio 9 which I've been using until 2019.

[loukash]

Speaking of Ableton Live, I had a few versions installed that came bundled with other audio interfaces I bought. 

I was never even able to figure out what to use it for… 

Mind you, I was working for quite a few years as a digital DJ. But I always was a "classic" DJ coming from playing vinyl records, not a "creative DJ" composing and mixing on the spot.
Ableton Live just felt totally wrong for anything I wanted to do.

[globet]

12 hours ago, David Nahmani said:

And guess what, I could no longer work in Pro Tools. I had become so accustomed to the workflow in Logic Pro that I was now lost in Pro Tools. 

Fate is undefeated.

[Holger Lagerfeldt]

 

I began on ProTracker on Amiga in 1990, then from 1993 Cubase 3.0 on Atari ST, then finally Logic 3 on Mac from 1998.

Pro Tools I've used when I was forced to, and it's certainly capable, but I find it fiddly, grey, and unstable compared to Logic.

Ableton Live seems incredibly messy and weird. I get that some people love it for electronic production, but I can't wrap my head around it.

Cubase today... the interface is loathsome, but at least it makes sense to me, and the audio engine is slightly better than most, e.g. no zipper noise.

If I had to switch today I'd go from Logic Pro to Studio One or the more customizable Reaper, but neither are a step up from Logic Pro.

Sooo hard to switch and I instantly miss some essential GUI features from Logic Pro when I try e.g. Reaper.

[gacki]

Ableton Live can do lots of extremely cool things, like including chance operations (for example: "Play a certain clip 8 times, then switch to a different clip", or basically having a randomized fill every 16 bars and and and...

Logic's "Live Loops" feel to me quite a bit influenced by Ableton Live. I use Ableton Live frequently when asked to do loop based things.

Studio One? I tried it a couple of years ago and was stunned that the metronome routing was fixed to the master bus.

Cubase I can work with; I always found the workflow similar to Logic's but in a way more clunky.

ProTools refused to run on my computer so I didn't press this further.

Tracktion Waveform is something I find very weird; and so far I haven't really gotten my head around NI's Maschine (and I really tried!).

 

[fr3Q]

I was a victim of the Gibson corporate buyout of Opcode Systems "Studiovision Pro", one of the first DAW's to successfully put multitrack audio waveforms sync'd with visualized controller-event MIDI on the same timeline in an elegant and customizable fashion.  I became an 'expert' with SVP, using a 3rd party kybd macro software, Quickeys, to comp audio/midi in a way that made sense to me as a composer.  I ran a studio with 2 guys working for me, all on SVP, when we got the word from Opcode Systems that SVP source code was being sold to Gibson Guitars, and there were no plans to continue development.  Just when we were preparing to make the investment of more horsepower to begin hosting the plugins that were beginning to be introduced into the sequencing architectures of the day.  It was a gut punch for me as a composer hitting my stride with a familiar tool.  I never really recovered.  We were approaching the 2008 financial crisis, and I had to switch careers to survive.  I started coming back to writing music about a decade later.  I started by flirting with Renoise's tracker paradigm, but that was like programming in Assembler, so it didn't take long to give Logic a spin, which had since been acquired by Apple and had the familiar piano-roll interface of SVP.  But I find my previous experience with multitrack sequencing and editing feels like a curse.  I'm familiar with the terminology and the capabilities of modern sequencers and I want an environment that feels like the one I had, but to slog through the learning curve to get there has been harder than I expected.  Rather than being a process of discovery, like it was the first time around, it's been a chore I've had to suffer through, cursed that I know what I want but getting stumped with the particulars of implementation, like troubleshooting Zones and Modes for consistent controller assignments across tracks, plugins, and inserts.  I'm hoping my recent discovery of the SoundFlow workflow software might finally get me where I want to be.  But Logic is a seriously deep and seriously capable tool.  I only wish it had been the first sequencer I was introduced to.

[Coldacre]

On 3/14/2024 at 8:05 PM, globet said:

I’ve noticed many Mac users prefer to use Ableton / FL Studios instead of Logic. When asked, their answers are always vague. It appears Logic’s logic is much more difficult to wrap your head around?

I've found most DAW's relatively easy to get my head around, all except for Ableton Live. 

its so NOT intuitive to me (as well as being the ugliest thing I've looked at on a computer since the Windows 95 era). all those drop-folders on the left had side just scream "Windows". I think the reason its so widespread is more teenagers can afford PC's than Macs, plus the hip hop "beat" crowd are all over it as well. Logic is seen is more of an "older persons" DAW.  

[FLH3]

I don't realy know any other DAWs and I found Logic a little bit tricky but it was 30 years ago, when I bought the update from Notator to Notator-Logic...

Their way to work was very different. 👴

1 hour ago, Coldacre said:

Logic is seen is more of an "older persons" DAW.  

Realy? 😀😉

Edited March 25 by FLH3

[wonshu]

Jacob Collier would beg to differ.

Although that dude could probably create impressive music with a pile of toilet paper.