A music producer's process advice.

[Liv]

Hello,

Just looking to chat with other producers of Logic Pro on advice for someone recording, producing, mixing. Damn its hard learning how to do it right (obviously) a lot of trial and error. I'm self taught and while I have definitely improved a lot since I first started I still can't seem to get a great, well balanced mix. They always seem to come out very off balanced, hollow, nothing really sitting well together. My vocals keep sounding really amateur in the mix I can never seem to add warmth and colour to them. I know this is a MASSIVE topic to get into, I guess I've never had a conversation with other producers before and I would love to get some advice and insight to your general process from start to finish? Which I know is subjective too and very personal but I would love to hear how other people generally approach it? Some context - I am a singer songwriter, so all the music I make is played and sang by myself. My style of music/ or what I'm going for at least is quite full, cinematic pop-esque. A lot of vocal harmonies and strings etc.  

- best volume set up for mic recordings of vocals?

-volumes in particular (general rule for getting all your gain correct for each track. How to approach it?)

-What to keep in mind when EQ'ing each track? (I try so much trial and error with this and my whole mix is always off balance and sort of hollow, I always target the high pass in the EQ to get rid of background noise or anything too boomy in that muddy frequency, I don't know if taking it off everything is making my mix sound hollow?).

- Some advice on mixing your vocals, main vocals and backing vocals? To get from a recording that's very raw to something rich and professional. 

-How to avoid muddiness?

-How to get each track sounding so clean together?

I suppose these first questions are what come to mind. Excuse me if I have gotten any vocabulary wrong. 

I appreciate anyones time to speak to me on this, thank you 😊. 

 

[Atlas007]

You would likely benefit from a dedicated course in situ with a professional or at least from a MOOC such as Berklee (There are many other as well). 

You will get valuable insight and advices, but from your questions, I gather that you need (way) more than what one could expect from a web forum to acquire the proficiency I guess you are yearning.

[Neil Gilmartin]

Liv, thanks for the honesty. I completely feel you! I'm also self-taught. It sounds like you've already gone quite far in with learning Logic, so my advice would probably be websites such as Groove3.com and macprovideo.com. On the former, Larry Holcombe and Eli Krantzberg in particular do a lot of excellent series on producing and mixing in Logic. For example, you could watch Eli Krantzberg's The Mechanics of Mixing in Logic Pro X to see the mixing of an entire indie-rock track or Mixing Electronic Music by Larry Holcombe to see a dance track mixed start to finish. Even if they're not your style, many skills are transferable. On macprovideo.com, Joshua Carney stands out for the areas you're interested in for his series on mixing in Logic Pro. I think one is called Advanced Mixing in Logic Pro, while another is called Mixing and Automation in Logic Pro. He spends a lot of time talking about mixing vocals in those courses, so you may find them very useful. He also has dedicated series on recording vocals and guitars in Logic Pro.

If you're looking for free materials, Joshua Carney is also on YouTube, but known as MusicTechHelpGuy. He's got what basically should be a pay-for course given away for free. If you've never checked it out, you are missing out 🙂  There's also Chris Vandeviver, who has a channel called Why Logic Pro Rules, which is also excellent. A more recent addition to the YouTube world is a channel called The Band Guide (it's a guy called Colin Cross), which is also top-notch and very easy to follow along with - just don't give him your email address unless you enjoy being bombarded with sales pitches. 

More generally, you (and I) should avoid the temptation to compare yourself too much with the mixes of professional mixers. Compare yourself now with yourself a year ago, and hopefully you can notice an improvement. Sorry if that sounds patronising - I don't mean for it to be! But it's worth remembering all the training and access to teachers and what have you that most professional mixers have had - if you're doing it all by yourself, by contrast, you've got to set the bar lower, at least initially. 

Edited March 23 by Neil Gilmartin

[Liv]

On 3/23/2024 at 4:07 PM, Neil Gilmartin said:

Liv, thanks for the honesty. I completely feel you! I'm also self-taught. It sounds like you've already gone quite far in with learning Logic, so my advice would probably be websites such as Groove3.com and macprovideo.com. On the former, Larry Holcombe and Eli Krantzberg in particular do a lot of excellent series on producing and mixing in Logic. For example, you could watch Eli Krantzberg's The Mechanics of Mixing in Logic Pro X to see the mixing of an entire indie-rock track or Mixing Electronic Music by Larry Holcombe to see a dance track mixed start to finish. Even if they're not your style, many skills are transferable. On macprovideo.com, Joshua Carney stands out for the areas you're interested in for his series on mixing in Logic Pro. I think one is called Advanced Mixing in Logic Pro, while another is called Mixing and Automation in Logic Pro. He spends a lot of time talking about mixing vocals in those courses, so you may find them very useful. He also has dedicated series on recording vocals and guitars in Logic Pro.

If you're looking for free materials, Joshua Carney is also on YouTube, but known as MusicTechHelpGuy. He's got what basically should be a pay-for course given away for free. If you've never checked it out, you are missing out 🙂  There's also Chris Vandeviver, who has a channel called Why Logic Pro Rules, which is also excellent. A more recent addition to the YouTube world is a channel called The Band Guide (it's a guy called Colin Cross), which is also top-notch and very easy to follow along with - just don't give him your email address unless you enjoy being bombarded with sales pitches. 

More generally, you (and I) should avoid the temptation to compare yourself too much with the mixes of professional mixers. Compare yourself now with yourself a year ago, and hopefully you can notice an improvement. Sorry if that sounds patronising - I don't mean for it to be! But it's worth remembering all the training and access to teachers and what have you that most professional mixers have had - if you're doing it all by yourself, by contrast, you've got to set the bar lower, at least initially. 

Hi Neil, wow thank you for taking the time to reply to me I really appreciate it, truly! The resources you’ve suggested.. thank you.. they sound very specific for me and I’m going to give these a watch! 
 

Yes, it is incredibly hard to stop yourself comparing to other more professional works, it’s almost nonsensical to do so, yet we do it from time to time. I think recently I’ve got myself caught up in that headspace again. But yes if I look back at myself even a year ago the improvements are there!

I know I’m going to get it eventually, and when I do I feel excited for the projects I’ve been sitting on. 
 

Thank you for your kindness 😊

[Neil Gilmartin]

Good luck to us both 🙂

[Liv]

Yes I second that Neil! 

[oscwilde]

Patience, time, and courage to make mistakes - and pragmatism to recognise when something isn't working and being prepared to toss it in the trash - are useful attributes.
Bottom line is that true "pros" don't know it all and are open to learning new stuff, new techniques, new music...and are cognisant that they won't know it all the day they drop off the perch.

[des99]

Your experience is basically *everybody's* experience when starting out on any complicated, technical and creative endeavour, so you're probably on the right track! 😉

It's more complicated in many ways starting today because everybody has access to *waaayyy* more tools - people are struggling selecting which of their twelve different compressors to use before they've even learnt how to hear compression, let alone how to *use* them both technically and artistically to achieve a particular affect.

It doesn't matter whether it's photography, drawing, playing an instrument, sculpture, whatever - the exact processes might be different, but the principles are all much the same - how to learn the vocabulary of the task you want to do, and how to develop the experience of which tools to use, and how to use them tastefully and with intent, to achieve the desired creative outcome.

For anyone learning *anything* creative, I always loved this bit from Ira Glass:

For something more specific, and without knowing exactly where you are in your learning process, I would strip it down to basics. Take your most recent song, save out a copy, and remove all plugins etc, reset all faders and pans. Mute all the extraneous stuff to only leave the core parts playing - let's say, the core drums, bass, chordal part and vocals.

Bring up a basic balance where the drums and bass are working together, bring up the vocal to where it sounds good, and bring up the chordal parts to fill out the sound, without overwhelming the vocal.

If you can't get something here that kinda works, then likely you have problems other than you mix - ie, your arrangement, your playing, the basic recordings etc may all have problems that make it hard to achieve a good mix. If so, you can look at those and see what can be done to improve them.

If you can achieve a rough balance at this point which sounds "ok", then you can try bit by bit bringing in the other, less vital parts and "colouring in" the mix. If you feel the vocal starts to lose focus or get stomped on by these other parts, then probably those parts aren't working, so consider leaving those out of the mix, or trying approaches which get them out of the way (I'm trying to not focus on specific techniques at this stage).

Once here, and you have a basic balance with most of the parts you want, try and assess whether there are any problems to take care of. Is the bass muddy and indistinct? Is the guitar too sharp or it sticks out in places? Does the vocal sound a little unpleasant at times, etc? There are a variety of ways to address these problems, and if you choose to do so, *be gentle about it*. Use the *least* amount of processing you can to *improve* the problem, rather than try to be heavy-handed and "fix" it (remember, you probably haven't developed your ears enough to make adequate judgements of how much to do something, so stay on the side of under-doing it for now).

Take your rough mixes, and listen to them out of the context of mixing - ie, put them on your phone/headphones/car etc, go for a walk/drive, and listen outside the concept of thinking "which EQ should I be using on the acoustic guitar part". You'll start to listen more artistically, rather than just listen for technical issues, and start to get some general rough ideas on what's working, what's not working, and possible ways in which you want to move the mix to something that "feels" better.

And lastly, the thing no one wants to hear when they are learning - the mix you do in ten years' time will be way better than what you are doing now (if you're doing it right, at least!). For now, do the best you can, listen, analyse, get feedback, try stuff, don't be afraid to strip the mix down and start again, and above all, however you get there, *finish it*. Even if you're less than happy with the results, finish it, and move on.

We learn by doing, and the more you do, the more you'll develop your own techniques, aesthetics and creative voice. But it does take time to do that, there aren't any shortcuts, and *everyone* goes through this in their own way and time.

Above all, enjoy it, try not to get overwhelmed, and be glad you're learning with the amazing tools we have now, rather than on a four-track cassette portastudio with extremely cheap and limited, hardware-only gear like some of us had to use. What you can do in your first year of making music is *millions* of times better than what I could do when starting out, to keep everything in perspective... 🙂

[Scriabin rocks]

3 hours ago, des99 said:

What you can do in your first year of making music is *millions* of times better than what I could do when starting out, to keep everything in perspective... 🙂

All good advice here, but this I think is the understatement of the year Des. 🤣

Quote

recording, producing, mixing

1986 screenshot, and guess what, it was overwhelming at first!

Have fun on the journey, is in deed the best advice, because even a single synth today, such as Spectrasonic's Omnisphere can take a considerable amount of your life time, and before you know it, you are hooked!

So you better have your divorce papers always handy. 🤭

[oscwilde]

Logic - at the start:


and the precursor to Logic (which many of us started with...once we'd gone "high tech" with our Atari STs):

And before that....C-Lab's Supertrack (Logic's grandparent):

[Scriabin rocks]

[synth_hero]

Emagic also made good hardware like the United 8 and AMT8 MIDI interfaces and the Audiowerk8 PCI sound card. The Universal Editor/Librarian SoundDiver is also memorable. 😄

[des99]

I still use my AMT8 and SoundDiver (although not so much Logic 1.x/2.x on the ST, as I had to give up my LOG3 when I moved to LAP on the PC)... 👍

I'm not sure what the funny is around Notator's SMPTE window, though? Notator's timing, particularly with it's SMPTE interface UNITOR was widely known as being excellent...

[fuzzfilth]

48 minutes ago, synth_hero said:

The Universal Editor/Librarian SoundDiver is also memorable

Arrrgh. Just when my wounds had somewhat healed.

[oscwilde]

58 minutes ago, synth_hero said:

Emagic also made good hardware like the United 8 and AMT8 MIDI interfaces

Still have/use my Unitor 8.
One of the best MIDI I/Fs ever made.

[synth_hero]

37 minutes ago, des99 said:

I still use my AMT8

 

9 minutes ago, oscwilde said:

Still have/use my Unitor 8.

Do they work well with Logic Pro X ?

[des99]

Yes, Apple even released a driver update for them so they even work on Apple silicon systems.

[oscwilde]

57 minutes ago, synth_hero said:

Do they work well with Logic Pro X ?

Yep...there's even a Project Settings tab for Unitor video sync functions:
https://support.apple.com/en-au/guide/logicpro/lgcpa2091a71/mac

[synth_hero]

45 minutes ago, oscwilde said:

Yep...there's even a Project Settings tab for Unitor video sync functions:
https://support.apple.com/en-au/guide/logicpro/lgcpa2091a71/mac

Brilliant!!! WOW!!! Emagic's hardware is feature-filled and of such high quality AND... still current.  ❤️

[Scriabin rocks]

4 hours ago, des99 said:

I'm not sure what the funny is around Notator's SMPTE window, though? Notator's timing, particularly with it's SMPTE interface UNITOR was widely known as being excellent...

It was in deed, I just find amusing how long that is ago! I am known to have a strange humour. 🫣

Edited March 27 by Scriabin rocks

[des99]

SMPTE is still a thing, you know..! 😉

[des99]

Do you guys break into fits of giggles every time you use Logic’s Lock SMPTE Position feature? 😝

[Scriabin rocks]

Got the t-shirt, have the cap. 😆

[Liv]

On 3/26/2024 at 1:13 PM, des99 said:

Your experience is basically *everybody's* experience when starting out on any complicated, technical and creative endeavour, so you're probably on the right track! 😉

It's more complicated in many ways starting today because everybody has access to *waaayyy* more tools - people are struggling selecting which of their twelve different compressors to use before they've even learnt how to hear compression, let alone how to *use* them both technically and artistically to achieve a particular affect.

It doesn't matter whether it's photography, drawing, playing an instrument, sculpture, whatever - the exact processes might be different, but the principles are all much the same - how to learn the vocabulary of the task you want to do, and how to develop the experience of which tools to use, and how to use them tastefully and with intent, to achieve the desired creative outcome.

For anyone learning *anything* creative, I always loved this bit from Ira Glass:

For something more specific, and without knowing exactly where you are in your learning process, I would strip it down to basics. Take your most recent song, save out a copy, and remove all plugins etc, reset all faders and pans. Mute all the extraneous stuff to only leave the core parts playing - let's say, the core drums, bass, chordal part and vocals.

Bring up a basic balance where the drums and bass are working together, bring up the vocal to where it sounds good, and bring up the chordal parts to fill out the sound, without overwhelming the vocal.

If you can't get something here that kinda works, then likely you have problems other than you mix - ie, your arrangement, your playing, the basic recordings etc may all have problems that make it hard to achieve a good mix. If so, you can look at those and see what can be done to improve them.

If you can achieve a rough balance at this point which sounds "ok", then you can try bit by bit bringing in the other, less vital parts and "colouring in" the mix. If you feel the vocal starts to lose focus or get stomped on by these other parts, then probably those parts aren't working, so consider leaving those out of the mix, or trying approaches which get them out of the way (I'm trying to not focus on specific techniques at this stage).

Once here, and you have a basic balance with most of the parts you want, try and assess whether there are any problems to take care of. Is the bass muddy and indistinct? Is the guitar too sharp or it sticks out in places? Does the vocal sound a little unpleasant at times, etc? There are a variety of ways to address these problems, and if you choose to do so, *be gentle about it*. Use the *least* amount of processing you can to *improve* the problem, rather than try to be heavy-handed and "fix" it (remember, you probably haven't developed your ears enough to make adequate judgements of how much to do something, so stay on the side of under-doing it for now).

Take your rough mixes, and listen to them out of the context of mixing - ie, put them on your phone/headphones/car etc, go for a walk/drive, and listen outside the concept of thinking "which EQ should I be using on the acoustic guitar part". You'll start to listen more artistically, rather than just listen for technical issues, and start to get some general rough ideas on what's working, what's not working, and possible ways in which you want to move the mix to something that "feels" better.

And lastly, the thing no one wants to hear when they are learning - the mix you do in ten years' time will be way better than what you are doing now (if you're doing it right, at least!). For now, do the best you can, listen, analyse, get feedback, try stuff, don't be afraid to strip the mix down and start again, and above all, however you get there, *finish it*. Even if you're less than happy with the results, finish it, and move on.

We learn by doing, and the more you do, the more you'll develop your own techniques, aesthetics and creative voice. But it does take time to do that, there aren't any shortcuts, and *everyone* goes through this in their own way and time.

Above all, enjoy it, try not to get overwhelmed, and be glad you're learning with the amazing tools we have now, rather than on a four-track cassette portastudio with extremely cheap and limited, hardware-only gear like some of us had to use. What you can do in your first year of making music is *millions* of times better than what I could do when starting out, to keep everything in perspective... 🙂

Hi Des, thank you so much for taking the time to write this and help me out, this is really kind. I’ve recently been trying this process as there’s been a lot of initial stuff I’ve completely skipped in the past like stripping everything and working on getting everything consistent. Ive always gone hell for leather on affects straight off and giving it the style I want without taking these first step and then wondering why everything is so muddy and thin. 

I’ve been bringing everything to 0 first off and practising automation on my vocals, again trying to go as little as possible at first. I think I’m struggling to carve out space for each instrument I’m using. Some songs I’m not using very many parts at all and some I have quite a few layers. What is your advice on space? Making sure everything is heard. I know there’s panning but sometimes I feel it still all meets at the middle and gets muddy. 

I’m quite fascinated in exploring and playing around with what you can do with ‘space’. Can you offer some general advice on getting things to sit in the field where I want them? 
 

some songs I listen to the space they play with especially for vocals where it feels all around you but so clear and auditable. Is there any advice you can offer for this, general things to think about/ execute? I also keep in mind that these are achieved elsewhere with more expensive equipment and more experience. But if I can achieve on my kind of scale better then that would be a start haha. 
 

It certainly makes me feel a lot better when you talk of everyone going through these fazes of experience, obviously you can only get better by doing and failing and going again. I keep this in mind while I am in this faze in my life. 

[Liv]

On 3/26/2024 at 12:10 PM, oscwilde said:

Patience, time, and courage to make mistakes - and pragmatism to recognise when something isn't working and being prepared to toss it in the trash - are useful attributes.
Bottom line is that true "pros" don't know it all and are open to learning new stuff, new techniques, new music...and are cognisant that they won't know it all the day they drop off the perch.

Hi Oscar Wilde, thank you for this I like the notion! It’s an ever growing well of knowledge to get into and I understand that it comes with time and experience. I find it hard to sacrifice stuff in my mixes but I think this maybe something that is really needed in some instances if things aren’t working. Bite the bullet and all!

[Liv]

On 3/26/2024 at 5:15 PM, Scriabin rocks said:

All good advice here, but this I think is the understatement of the year Des. 🤣

1986 screenshot, and guess what, it was overwhelming at first!

Have fun on the journey, is in deed the best advice, because even a single synth today, such as Spectrasonic's Omnisphere can take a considerable amount of your life time, and before you know it, you are hooked!

So you better have your divorce papers always handy. 🤭

Thank you Scriabin, I do find myself getting lost sometimes with the sheer AMOUNT of stuff you can use today. It’s always tempering to plump for things but I feel I still need to learn the fundamentals of things first for example compression. But I have been side eyeing Omnisphere. 👀 

[des99]

 

 

 

23 minutes ago, Liv said:

What is your advice on space? Making sure everything is heard. I know there’s panning but sometimes I feel it still all meets at the middle and gets muddy. 

 

I think the first thing to do is start to be able to identify what is competing for space, to then decide how to handle it. And by space, not just in terms of where something sits in the mix, but whether it's competing for *attention*, and from there, then you can get a feel for whether it's a mix issue, or an arrangement issue (you can fix some arrangement issues with the mix, of course, eg, dropping parts out or changing them up with processing or positioning etc)

Think in terms of left-right (panning), up-down (frequency & volume), and back-front (frequency, volume and ambience).

Should something be up front and in your face, or pushed to the background to give space for other things up front?.. etc. If you've got multiple things going on, where should the focus be? At any time, is one thing more important than others? If so, are you shining a light on what's important, and letting the other stuff give way? A good mix always keeps the important things in focus, but then often brings other details in and out for little moments and colour when the vocal is out of the way, for instance (using automation).

 

 

 

10 minutes ago, Liv said:

I’m quite fascinated in exploring and playing around with what you can do with ‘space’. Can you offer some general advice on getting things to sit in the field where I want them?

 

You can do a *lot* with panning, EQ, volume and reverb wet/dry balance...

You can also do some more advanced techniques like sidechaining parts so that, for instance, when the vocal comes in, it pulls some of the instruments that would otherwise compete in that space down a little, or on reverb so that when the vocal is present the reverb levels are low, but when the vocal stops the reverb swells back up a bit - there are lots of tools and techniques to learn, but it's important imo to start with the fundamentals and learning to build a good mix without a bunch of other stuff going on that you may not be totally in control of...

 

 

[fuzzfilth]

To me, space is so much about arrangement. If instruments are competing about space, the arrangement is wrong. Usually I'm not someone who recommends videos, but here is an excellent one, well worth the <2min of your lifetime:

 

Edited March 28 by fuzzfilth

[Scriabin rocks]

😂 Super Video Christian!

[Scriabin rocks]

2 hours ago, Liv said:

 But I have been side eyeing Omnisphere. 👀 

Yoda: The force is strong with this one.

Gandalf: So it begins!

Donald Trump: Synthesizers? Pfff Syndicators!

Bob Moog: Yes!

Drug Counselor: It is a gateway drug! You end up with Keyscape, Sonic Extensions, Trilian and Stylus RMX for the rest of your life.

Pope: Heretics! There is but one, not Omni. Pray harder!

Greg Phillinganes: You can pry it from my cold dead moddafukin haaaands.

Herbie Hancock: Does it have a singing bowl?

Me: DO IT! DO IT NOW!

😆

Edited March 28 by Scriabin rocks