Roland Fantom 06 and Scaler 2 with Logic Pro

[Orourkekings]

I'm looking to purchase a Roland Fantom 06 workstation.  I will be composing with both my workstation and Scaler 2.  I want to merge both of them sometimes in my workflow.  I found a video which I have a question about.  In the video the Roland Product Rep. shows how to set up external midi channels inside Logic Pro for the Roland Fantom (06 will work the same).  He turns off 'local switch' inside of the Fantom and lets Logic Pro take over the sequencing and routing of loaded "tones" or sounds.  He then proceeds to record (compose) midi with the Fantom onto the tracks set up for the midi using the sounds obviously from the Fantom.  Of course he later shows (in a seperate video) that you have to go back and record audio of the midi (print the audio) to a seperate track.  No problem.   

My question is this:  There are times that I want to compose with Scaler 2. I should be able to just load Scaler 2 up as a midi effect and use the Fantom 06 just for the sound.  In that case, would i initiate the track like he did by setting up a external midi track and then after loading up the Fantom 06 as the instrument, load Scaler 2 as a midi effect?  I could figure this out if I had the Fantom 06 currently but I want to know the answer to this question before I plop down $1500.  He starts at about the 3:25 mark when he begins to set up the external midi channels. Thanks for any responses.

 

Edited March 25 by Orourkekings

[Jordi Torres]

Hi @Orourkekings,

 

4 minutes ago, Orourkekings said:

There are times that I want to compose with Scaler 2. I should be able to just load Scaler 2 up as a midi effect and use the Fantom just for the sound.  In that case, would i initiate the track like he did by setting up a external midi track and then after loading up the Fantom as the instrument, load Scaler 2 as a midi effect?

 

I did not watch the video, but If you want to use any Audio Units MIDI Effect with a hardware synth, you will have to do so by creating a Software Instrument track + External Instrument plugin.

J. 

[Orourkekings]

21 minutes ago, Jordi Torres said:

Hi @Orourkekings,

I did not watch the video, but If you want to use any Audio Units MIDI Effect with a hardware synth, you will have to do so by creating a Software Instrument track + External Instrument plugin.

J. 

So I don't set up a external midi channel, instead its software instrument track and then external instrument plugin.  I hope that is the workflow with the Fantom 06.  It makes sense.

[Jordi Torres]

8 minutes ago, Orourkekings said:

So I don't set up a external midi channel, instead its software instrument track and then external instrument plugin. 

Right, but as far as Logic is concerned, a Software Instrument track + External Instrument plugin is an external MIDI track.

But you could still do a multi-timbral setup this way if necessary, you could even route MIDI Channel-specific data to a single Software Instrument track and apply your MIDI effect to all data simultaneously, or process each MIDI Channel-specific data with separate instances of your MIDI effect.

One thing to keep in mind when using Software Instrument track + External Instrument plugin: No SysEx will pass through those. You necessarily need a "classic" External MIDI track for that.

J.

[Orourkekings]

14 minutes ago, Jordi Torres said:

Right, but as far as Logic is concerned, a Software Instrument track + External Instrument plugin is an external MIDI track.

But you could still do a multi-timbral setup this way if necessary, you could even route MIDI Channel-specific data to a single Software Instrument track and apply your MIDI effect to all data simultaneously, or process each MIDI Channel-specific data with separate instances of your MIDI effect.

One thing to keep in mind when using Software Instrument track + External Instrument plugin: No SysEx will pass through those. You necessarily need a "classic" External MIDI track for that.

J.

This is why I use plugins, lmao Hardware gets waay too complicated.  This technical stuff ( I appreciate your responses and explanations) is frustrating. I'm back to not being sure if I can use the Fantom 06 inside Logic Pro the way I want to.  If Roland had plugins that worked like they should I wouldn't even be considering their Fantom 06. Roland Cloud is hit or miss and the plugins with lifetimes licenses are tied to their Roland Cloud.

Edited March 25 by Orourkekings

[oscwilde]

What - specifically - do you want from the Fantom?
Particular sounds/functions/features that are unique to it?

[Orourkekings]

1 hour ago, oscwilde said:

What - specifically - do you want from the Fantom?
Particular sounds/functions/features that are unique to it?

Just the ability to record the Fantom 06 patches into Logic Pro as midi and audio.  No sound design of any kind, just straight out of the box presets recorded as midi and audio into Logic Pro.

Edited March 26 by Orourkekings

[oscwilde]

11 hours ago, Orourkekings said:

straight out of the box presets recorded as midi and audio into Logic Pro.

The Fantom USB port carries BOTH MIDI and audio data...you need to download appropriate USB drivers for your MacOS version from Roland's site.
As Jordi mentioned above, you need to create multiple software instrument tracks in Logic - each with an External Instrument plug-in inserted on each channel strip.
For each track, you'll need to define a MIDI channel and audio inputs that correspond to the channels/outputs of the Fantom in the External Instrument plug-in (see pic below).

The Scaler plug-in can be inserted as a MIDI effect on one/multiple instrument channels (maybe insert it and bypass it on all channels...so it's ready to wear when you need it?).

The Fantom also has dedicated Logic Pro control surface support, so this would be worth downloading/installing/checking out.
Once you've set things up, save your project as a template which you can use as a starting point for future work.

[Orourkekings]

13 hours ago, oscwilde said:

The Fantom USB port carries BOTH MIDI and audio data...you need to download appropriate USB drivers for your MacOS version from Roland's site.
As Jordi mentioned above, you need to create multiple software instrument tracks in Logic - each with an External Instrument plug-in inserted on each channel strip.
For each track, you'll need to define a MIDI channel and audio inputs that correspond to the channels/outputs of the Fantom in the External Instrument plug-in (see pic below).

The Scaler plug-in can be inserted as a MIDI effect on one/multiple instrument channels (maybe insert it and bypass it on all channels...so it's ready to wear when you need it?).

The Fantom also has dedicated Logic Pro control surface support, so this would be worth downloading/installing/checking out.
Once you've set things up, save your project as a template which you can use as a starting point for future work.

I believe I have it now.  IF I don't use Scaler I would do like the Roland Product Representative did in the video which is to create a "external midi" instrument, start at channel 1 and create 16 tracks or whatever my project calls for. (he used 16 tracks for his project).

If I use Scaler, you start with a "software instrument track" for each track and do the appropriate routing of the midi and input for the audio.  Scaler would be loaded up for each track as needed as a midi effect.

Again, I appreciate the responses from you and Jordi. It just reminds me how plugins are faster but I don't want to have to use plugins all the time.  I want to use hardware as a change of pace.  The template idea is a MUST.  That will obvious speed up the workflow and make it a moot point.  Thanks and correct me if I'm wrong about my conclusion to what you and Jordi stated.

[oscwilde]

5 hours ago, Orourkekings said:

I believe I have it now.  IF I don't use Scaler I would do like the Roland Product Representative did in the video which is to create a "external midi" instrument, start at channel 1 and create 16 tracks or whatever my project calls for. (he used 16 tracks for his project).

If I use Scaler, you start with a "software instrument track" for each track and do the appropriate routing of the midi and input for the audio.  Scaler would be loaded up for each track as needed as a midi effect.

More or less, yes.
As Jordi mentioned above, sysex data can't be transmitted thru software instrument channel strips.
This may be relevant to a number of Roland keyboards that have a million patches - like the Fantoms, Integra, a.s.o.
The selection of patches (beyond bank 1, patches 0-127 or 1-128) in say bank 4, involves use of custom bank select messages....in Roland devices, this is sometimes achieved through a SYSEX command.
This being said - I'm not sure how you want to use/how deep you wanna go with the Fantom setup in Logic....so may not be something you're interested in.

If you are, take a read thru this thread as a bunch of the Environment work has been done (you can download stuff from the files area here) for the "straight" MIDI setup of the Fantom.

 

[Orourkekings]

46 minutes ago, oscwilde said:

More or less, yes.
As Jordi mentioned above, sysex data can't be transmitted thru software instrument channel strips.
This may be relevant to a number of Roland keyboards that have a million patches - like the Fantoms, Integra, a.s.o.
The selection of patches (beyond bank 1, patches 0-127 or 1-128) in say bank 4, involves use of custom bank select messages....in Roland devices, this is sometimes achieved through a SYSEX command.
This being said - I'm not sure how you want to use/how deep you wanna go with the Fantom setup in Logic....so may not be something you're interested in.

If you are, take a read thru this thread as a bunch of the Environment work has been done (you can download stuff from the files area here) for the "straight" MIDI setup of the Fantom.

If I use the Fantom 06 as a "external midi" track and don't use Scaler, would this information about SYSEX commands still apply?  As I'm reading the links you gave thats waay too deep for me.  I get whats going on but thats too deep for what I want to do.

On a side note, do you know if the MODX+ has the same issue with SYSEX? 

Edited March 27 by Orourkekings

[oscwilde]

33 minutes ago, Orourkekings said:

If I use the Fantom 06 as a "external midi" track and don't use Scaler, would this information about SYSEX commands still apply?

As above...it's a "how deep do you wanna go?" thing.

The advantage of doing the "under the hood" setup work in the Environment - ONCE - means that you can choose any patch...from any bank...by name (e.g. "Kick-Ass Funk Bass", rather than bank 4, MIDI program change # 63)....on the Fantom - from Logic.
This data will be stored/memorised with each project and sent to the Fantom when you next load the project.
Out of the box - Logic will address the FIRST 128 patches in the Roland, but it will not address the other 900 sounds in the Fantom's memory - unless "custom" bank messages are set up in the Logic Environment.
Logic's "stock" bank messages work with many devices that have more than 128 patches...but not the Fantoms/Integra, etc. from Roland.

If you don't do the above..you'll need to manually create/change "performance" patches (multi-channel setups) on the Fantom itself.
When you load up your Logic project, you'll need to manually choose the performance patch on the Fantom or Logic will play the (wrong) sounds of the currently active Fantom performance.
Is your memory good enough to remember which Fantom performance patch you used with each Logic project you create?

While the Environment thing looks daunting - 99% of the work (i.e. the technical stuff) has been done by other users - you just need to import an environment layer and make sure ports/cabling are correct - then create the desired number of tracks/channels...and save the project as a template.
 

[Orourkekings]

10 minutes ago, oscwilde said:

As above...it's a "how deep do you wanna go?" thing.

The advantage of doing the "under the hood" setup work in the Environment - ONCE - means that you can choose any patch...from any bank...by name (e.g. "Kick-Ass Funk Bass", rather than bank 4, MIDI program change # 63)....on the Fantom - from Logic.
This data will be stored/memorised with each project and sent to the Fantom when you next load the project.
Out of the box - Logic will address the FIRST 128 patches in the Roland, but it will not address the other 900 sounds in the Fantom's memory - unless "custom" bank messages are set up in the Logic Environment.
Logic's "stock" bank messages work with many devices that have more than 128 patches...but not the Fantoms/Integra, etc. from Roland.

If you don't do the above..you'll need to manually create/change "performance" patches (multi-channel setups) on the Fantom itself.
When you load up your Logic project, you'll need to manually choose the performance patch on the Fantom or Logic will play the (wrong) sounds of the currently active Fantom performance.
Is your memory good enough to remember which Fantom performance patch you used with each Logic project you create?

While the Environment thing looks daunting - 99% of the work (i.e. the technical stuff) has been done by other users - you just need to import an environment layer and make sure ports/cabling are correct - then create the desired number of tracks/channels...and save the project as a template.
 

If I don't go that deep, why can't I just choose the performance or patch inside the Fantom06, set up the tracks inside Logic and route the appropriate channels and just make notes of what performance was chosen if I have to reload the project later?  Just like the Roland Rep. did in the video.  I know he isn't going very deep with it but he did just pull up "tones" in the "zones" inside Fantom, turned off local switch so that Logic would control where the sounds or tones are loaded and carried on with midi recording?   I can learn the deeper stuff as I go.

[oscwilde]

1 hour ago, Orourkekings said:

why can't I just choose the performance or patch inside the Fantom06

No reason why you can't, I was simply offering possibilities that you could choose to use, or not.
Go with what works for you.

[Orourkekings]

12 minutes ago, oscwilde said:

No reason why you can't, I was simply offering possibilities that you could choose to use, or not.
Go with what works for you.

I appreciate that.  Its that I'm a relatively new producer and this stuff overwhelms me sometimes.  Now that you and Jordi have put the information out there, I now know what to do when or if I run into scenarios where I would need to do something like that to make the workflow better. 

It took me about 6 months to get a basic handle on Logic and all a sudden, everything made sense and I started just doing stuff and experimenting KNOWING that my experiments would work.  Thats how I want to approach the Fantom06.  Get a basic handle on it and then once I got a grip on that, then go deeper into it. I can always come back to this thread and really get into it.  I'm also gonna research Sysex midi commands and Libraries to get a understanding and overstanding of what its all about.

[oscwilde]

2 hours ago, Orourkekings said:

On a side note, do you know if the MODX+ has the same issue with SYSEX?

Not 100% sure, but think it just uses MSB/LSB (Most Significant Byte/Least Significant Byte) pairs for bank select.
It'd still require custom bank messages, but don't think SYSEX is involved (as it can be with some Roland devices).
 

50 minutes ago, Orourkekings said:

I can always come back to this thread and really get into it.  I'm also gonna research Sysex midi commands and Libraries to get a understanding and overstanding of what its all about.

Yep...no rush.
You don't "need" to know about sysex, etc. until you actually need it for a particular device.
Jordi and I (and des, David, polanoid, Holger, fisherking, Christian O, and many others) have been using Logic (and a wide variety of MIDI devices) for a few decades now, so have picked it up incrementally - and the LPH hive mind has a reasonable handle on "quirks" of particular MIDI devices/manufacturer implementations.
So tap us for info before we're all senile 😂.