Logic automation / mixing; limitations and best practices

[Frankenhaus]

Hello everyone. I'm new to the forum, but have come here countless times for silent help over the years. I've got a problem now that I'm not finding a satisfactory answer on, though. This will be somewhat of a multifaceted question, but the pressing matter centers around automation.

I have always done a lot of track automation when mixing. Granted, region automation and clip gain have proved useful in certain instances, but I never seem to be able to fully get around drawing old fashioned track automation for a satisfactory mix.

The last few projects I've done, I inevitably get to a point where the automation glitches. It either plays out of time, or doesn't play at all. But what I want to be clear about here is that it doesn't seem to be a consistent behavior, such as the whole thing triggering early due to plugin delay compensation, etc... Rather, what Logic does is decide that apparently it just really doesn't like this one syllable... this one beat... this one moment.... in the song. It refuses to correctly respond to automation. But only on that exact spot on the timeline (it's consistent about THAT). It's automating perfectly fine all around it, but spazzes and misses that one spot no matter what I do. (well... other than annoying workarounds such as bouncing things down, or automating a bus channel instead, etc) Nothing suspect is happening at these spots. They always seem truly random. I guess a few things these incidents usually have in common is: 1) a good bit of mixing / automating has been done in the session, 2) it usually seems to be a full part of the song where everything is firing, so to speak, and 3) it usually happens in the mixing phase, meaning that I've brought some heavy-hitter plugins into play. Nothing crazy though.

Has anyone else experienced this? It's almost disconcerting enough to jump ship entirely from Logic for the mixing phase. I really don't want to have to do that though. That leads me to a follow-up question...

Maybe there are standard best practices that I am failing to follow... things that we lesser mortals bound to computers of normal computing power have to succumb to... such as, perhaps, bouncing down to stems and mixing from there out of necessity, to avoid glitchy behavior?

I guess I'm just needing to understand things like... Does Logic get overwhelmed with "too much" automation? Let's say it's roughly standard for me to have maybe 100-150 active tracks (I hide many tracks and turn them off, such as original comp tracks in case I ever need to go back and find a different vocal snippet, etc), with significant amounts of automation on nearly every track. Is Logic just kind of... not really up to the task? Or is it my computer?

I would be grateful for any thoughts and guidance. Be kind, please. I'm a musician at heart, not a tech guy.

I'm on a 2020 M1 Mac Mini, Ventura 13.6.1. Logic 10.8.1. I still use Rosetta, thanks to Melodyne ARA still not being native yet... (to my knowledge)

[Scriabin rocks]

We can rule out the eclipse now. 🤭

Have a look here, Melodyne 5.2 advertises as such:

https://www.celemony.com/en/melodyne52#:~:text=In its new Version 5.2,full advantage of their power.

As for Logic, I would consider an upgrade to Sonoma and check again. 

P.S. Reason being, Ventura and Logic was somewhat problematic to my understanding.

 

Edited April 8 by Scriabin rocks

[Frankenhaus]

Quote

Melodyne 5.2 advertises as such:

https://www.celemony.com/en/melodyne52#:~:text=In its new Version 5.2,full advantage of their power.

 

 

You are correct, and yet the ARA doesn't actually work when you open Logic natively. Different topic, and I'll have to look more into that issue. Thanks.

Edited April 9 by Frankenhaus

[David Nahmani]

Choose Logic Pro > Settings > Audio > General and make sure Sample Accurate Automation is set to Volume, Pan, Sends, Plug-in Parameters.

[Frankenhaus]

Quote

Choose Logic Pro > Settings > Audio > General and make sure Sample Accurate Automation is set to Volume, Pan, Sends, Plug-in Parameters.

Admin, did you read the following?

2 hours ago, Frankenhaus said:

But what I want to be clear about here is that it doesn't seem to be a consistent behavior, such as the whole thing triggering early due to plugin delay compensation, etc...

That part was intended to make clear that I'm aware of such settings. Thank you anyway though. I suppose it was good to get that setting question out of the way first. Now that I have confirmed that I have already checked such settings, please proceed to the exact problem at hand if you can.

[David Nahmani]

7 hours ago, Frankenhaus said:

Admin, did you read the following?

Yes. You mention plug-in delay compensation, but I'm talking about sample accurate automation. 

7 hours ago, Frankenhaus said:

That part was intended to make clear that I'm aware of such settings.

Other than plug-in delay compensation, it's still unclear which settings you're referring to, or what value you have them set to?

If you'd rather go about this another way: make a copy of your project so that you keep the original untouched. In the copy, remove everything that's not necessary to reproduce your issue: unneeded regions, tracks, plug-ins etc. unless. you're left with a very simple project with:

• only one track
• only one (small) MIDI or audio region
• only one automation parameter that doesn't trigger as expected

Once you have that, attach the project here or share it with a file sharing service, so that one of us can have a look. 

[polanoid]

Indeed, as David wrote, the way to track down issues like you describe is to strip down the project to smaller versions, until you cannot reproduce the issue anymore (in which case the issue was caused by the part you just stripped away) or the project is so small that the cause of issue becomes apparent.

[Frankenhaus]

David, I apologize for being sloppy in what I’m referring to here… All I mean is that I’ve checked all of those settings. Why? Because I’ve already been here multiple times looking at other threads about automation glitches. What I’m looking for here is for someone who has checked all the boxes and is still experiencing the same problem I’m experiencing, and what they may have managed to find out about it. It is self-evident that one can spend hours upon hours doing his own process of elimination work. That would eliminate the need for forums, (other than needing to hear of such processes for the first time). I didn’t come here to hear “Figure out your own problem and spend lots of time doing it.” I came here with the hope of help and SAVING time. So I will wait, in hope of someone who has been down this road and has some specific ideas related to the problem. Doing my own process of elimination is a last resort. I didn’t come here to pile work on myself.

 Also, there are other aspects of my post that I imagine you guys could give me some advice on… How about general best practices for mixing sessions? Is it generally understood that one should simplify the mix sessions to lighten the load on the computer and avoid glitchy behavior? Etc. I’m relatively new to the mixing side of things, and that’s where I’m running into my issues, when the project has gotten “big.”

[polanoid]

13 minutes ago, Frankenhaus said:

I didn’t come here to hear “Figure out your own problem and spend lots of time doing it.” I came here with the hope of help and SAVING time.

Actually David (and me as well) offered to have a look at the project. I guess that could potentially save you lots of time. Stripping down the project is useful for easier sharing and to avoid making public any material that you deem confidential. You are of course free to not accept that offer.

[Frankenhaus]

It takes a ton of time to strip down a project in such a way. Not worth it unless last resort. I'm sorry for implying that you guys aren't being helpful. I'm just frustrated because it's not easy what you guys are suggesting.

The hope of forums is to meet that guy that says, "Oh yeah! I had that same problem! Here's what you do..." Again, I didn't come here to work. That will be my last resort. Or honestly, just mixing in another DAW might be easier than that. The point is that the problem shouldn't be happening. I'm not doing cruel and unusual punishment to my computer with 300 active tracks and UAD plugins on every track...

But I am willing to explore other workflows, such as bouncing to stems, etc. I tried a version of that approach with this project, but I didn't do it from a completely fresh new project. I did it from a copy, in order to maintain access to all files easily within one project and just turn off all unneeded tracks.

Another thing I should mention here is that by the mix phase and I end up keeping all tracks frozen (well... everything that will freeze, meaning not busses). I also set my buffer to 1024 just as an extra olive branch to the computer. I really didn't think I would still have to be doing stuff like that on an M1 (granted, running in Rosetta). It's the same kind of stuff I had to do on my old MBP, just with a bit more computing power and a bit faster and smoother.

Am I just longing for a supermachine? 

[JakobP]

1 hour ago, Frankenhaus said:

I also set my buffer to 1024 just as an extra olive branch to the computer.

There've been reports here that doing that actually cripples the performance on apple silicon Macs, so go for 256 or lower until you really need to raise the buffer size...

[Frankenhaus]

Quote

There've been reports here that doing that actually cripples the performance on apple silicon Macs, so go for 256 or lower until you really need to raise the buffer size...

Hmm, now that's interesting. When running Logic natively or Rosetta or both?

[JakobP]

Afaik, that has not been determined yet...

[Holger Lagerfeldt]

Quote

The hope of forums is to meet that guy that says, "Oh yeah! I had that same problem! Here's what you do..." 

Oh yeah, I've experienced something like that. Here's what you do...

The only way I could fix this (bug) was to locate the [hidden] automation folder, delete, and recreate the messed up data. But it did work.

It's a looong time ago, so I'm not even sure if access to the automation folder is possible today. @David Nahmani?

The video I linked to seems to indicate so, so worth a try to see if you can locate the problematic area and data.

But it wasn't a repeat thing and I'm not sure it's the same problem as you're experiencing. It shouldn't be repeat event.

Also, more than 256 samples for the buffer should be more than enough.

 

[David Nahmani]

19 minutes ago, Holger Lagerfeldt said:

It's a looong time ago, so I'm not even sure if access to the automation folder is possible today. @David Nahmani?

Yes, you can still access it today! Same as before in fact:

1. Press Control + Command + E to open the Automation Event List,
2. Press Command + 1 to open the Automation folder. 

[Frankenhaus]

Quote

 

Oh yeah, I've experienced something like that. Here's what you do...

The only way I could fix this (bug) was to locate the [hidden] automation folder, delete, and recreate the messed up data. But it did work.

 

Dude that's crazy (the fact that there's an automation event list and that messing with it fixed a glitch). I'll have to give this a try. It doesn't go in the prevent-from-happening-in-the-first-place category, but at least maybe in the fix-it-for-now category.

I've posted in several Facebook Logic groups as well. So far my top gut feeling is that maybe this will go away if I run Melodyne the old fashioned way and run my projects native. No idea though until I try.

And so far I resent all of these possible solutions / workarounds, but that's life I guess, ha.

[Sir Hannes]

As @Holger Lagerfeldt wrote, this one saved many of my automation problems. Yes, I had often automation glitches and my system was set correctly and CPU meter wasn't going crazy. LogicPro has under some circumstances issues with automation and isn't able to process them.

- best workaround: if you realize it, take your time and re-build as much as you can. e.g. bounce software instruments, processing part of the plugins and create a new audio track. Throw away plugins, not only 3rd party, in 2 sessions the internal Graphic EQ was the bad guy.

- it is not fair at all, but sometimes you have to life with it or send the project to your mixer and let him get angry about Apple

- on my new Pro system I suddenly have automation issues with Soundtoys Effect Rack and Alterboy, Logic is playing, there are several ramps in the automation lane I produced to force Logic to follow - but Logic isn't follow and the whole guitar track is completely out of tune due the fact that Alterboy plays in tritonus instead of fifth. 

- I use the midas EQ a lot and often, drastic bass or high cuts produce loud sweeps as the automation jumps too late to the news value. Now an easy ramp over 16 bars: doesn't change anything. Theses noises are audible in every mixdown. It's incredible bad.

Edited April 11 by Sir Hannes

[Frankenhaus]

Sir Hannes, thank you. This is the kind of honest talk I’m looking for. This is exactly the real life experience of mixing in Logic… It’s fine, until it’s not. And I pretty much always get it to that point before a project is done.
 

So sadly I will either figure out a workflow that dumbs things down enough for the computer, or mix in a different DAW entirely.

[fisherking]

39 minutes ago, Frankenhaus said:

Sir Hannes, thank you. This is the kind of honest talk I’m looking for. This is exactly the real life experience of mixing in Logic… It’s fine, until it’s not. And I pretty much always get it to that point before a project is done.
 

So sadly I will either figure out a workflow that dumbs things down enough for the computer, or mix in a different DAW entirely.

hmm, so all these years, professional logic users have been fooling themselves into thinking things are working well in the app? and we're not just talking about your specific issues?

anyway, we'll let all logic users here (and everywhere) know about this, and am sure everyone will also move to another DAW. 🤔

but for now: are you working from a custom template? might be worth looking at that...

[Frankenhaus]

 

…Huh?

I like Logic. It’s all I know, in fact. Did I blaspheme the holy DAW or something? Automation issues are a common topic among Logic users. Google it. Don’t act like I’m doing something wrong. Nobody WANTS to have to bounce this, render that, simply that, don’t use “too many busses”, etc… What we want is to make the music we want to make, the way we want to make it, without a hitch. When we run up against a problem or a glitch, well… we have to figure out how to work around it, and we seek out help. You don’t seem to be about helping, you seem to be about protecting the idea that your chosen DAW is perfect.

What am I missing? Why is this guy coming at me? 

If you haven’t experienced the same problems as I have, fine. But don’t act like I’m doing something wrong because I ran into a limitation of the program.

I don’t know what you’re getting at with templates, but no, no templates going on.

 

[fisherking]

15 minutes ago, Frankenhaus said:

…Huh?

I like Logic. It’s all I know, in fact. Did I blaspheme the holy DAW or something? Automation issues are a common topic among Logic users. Google it. Don’t act like I’m doing something wrong. Nobody WANTS to have to bounce this, render that, simply that, don’t use “too many busses”, etc… What we want is to make the music we want to make, the way we want to make it, without a hitch. When we run up against a problem or a glitch, well… we have to figure out how to work around it, and we seek out help. You don’t seem to be about helping, you seem to be about protecting the idea that your chosen DAW is perfect.

What am I missing? Why is this guy coming at me? 

If you haven’t experienced the same problems as I have, fine. But don’t act like I’m doing something wrong because I ran into a limitation of the program.

I don’t know what you’re getting at with templates, but no, no templates going on.

lots of people have issues with logic; hence, this forum. and if you want help, there are good people here (better & smarter than i am).

work with them, hear them out. there should be a reason for these issues, as many (most?) of us are not experiencing them. you shouldn't have to "figure out a workflow that dumbs things down enough for the computer". but do what you need to do (of course), and good luck with all of it 👍

[Frankenhaus]

Every suggestion I’ve heard so far (also on Facebook) amounts to needing to dumb things down for the computer, so although I agree that I “shouldn’t” have to do that, it seems to be the only way so far.

For those who “don’t have these issues”, I would be interested to see things like track count, bus count, etc. Also what machine you’re running.

[cinningbao]

I feel like I probably shouldn't say this, but I'm going to.

Software is complex. Software which was originally written approx 20+ years ago is a absolute  nightmare to maintain. There will _always_ be bugs (which is why forums like this can help pick them out, and ultimately report back to Apple - whether they choose to address them or not is out of our control) and there will always be corruptions of user files; this is computers. And the more complex the program, the more potential there is for bugs and corruptions.

This is a community of users, mostly very experienced users who have used this software for many, many years, possibly like yourself Frankenhaus! Some of us experience problems others have also experienced; other folks discover issues no-one else has ever come across, usually as a product of their workflow and the ways they choose to satisfy their creative urges. Your problem appears to come under the latter.

If you're not willing to accept the investigations, workarounds or solutions provided here, it's difficult to know what you actually want. David's suggestion of deleting all the tracks apart from the problem tracks is very reasonable, and something some of us do as normal practice in order to diagnose a problem. Elimination of extraneous stuff leaving only 'the problem' is often the easiest way to work out what's gone wrong.

If you want to solve the problem, go down the same path we all have to go down when we're solving technical issues, which is what your issue is. You can be as angry as you want about the program, and your problem, but it won't fix itself.

Sorry, I had to say it. The folks here are trying to be helpful (and they _know_ this product) but your tone and language doesn't sound like you understand that. Or maybe you do and you're just having a bad day! 🙂

[Frankenhaus]

Point taken, Cinningbao. I just don't appreciate it when people act like a guy is doing something wrong just because they haven't experienced the problem. I think that you are most likely correct about the satisfying-urges thing. What I don't appreciate is the attitude that that is wrong, that I should know better, etc. If you run up against a problem due to "too many" of this, "too much" of that, that isn't your fault, it's the natural limitations of the system, or it's a weak spot in the program. In such cases, the only possible solution IS to simplify (or as I said, "dumb it down") things for the system so that it runs more smoothly. Most of what I'm hearing from people basically amounts to a mentality of just committing and bouncing stuff down all the time so that the computer doesn't have to think hard. All I'm saying here is that sucks. I get that "it's life"... but it's dishonest to say that it doesn't suck. So... onward I go to worse workflows.

As for the stripping down to one track thing, that suggestion seemed silly to me, because it seems obvious that once the overall load of the rest of the project has been taken off of the computer, well of course the problem won't happen. And then you're left with trying to recreate a thousand other steps just to make it happen again.

However... if it somehow DID keep happening... that would be interesting. Seems like that might fall under the heading of project corruption, which is a concept I have yet to understand well. Seems nebulous and random. Anyway, if I get the time, I might give it a try just to see what happens. If I do I'll post it here.

Thanks again, and I'm sorry for the tone, everyone. 

[fisherking]

i have never dumbed down my workflow to accomodate my computer; and, in 2024, i just do everything i need to do, and life goes on. and that doesn't suck.

get help with your issues, or adapt. personally, i'd always choose 'get help'...

[cinningbao]

22 minutes ago, Frankenhaus said:

As for the stripping down to one track thing, that suggestion seemed silly to me, because it seems obvious that once the overall load of the rest of the project has been taken off of the computer, well of course the problem won't happen. And then you're left with trying to recreate a thousand other steps just to make it happen again.

I mean, you're missing the point of the strip-back operation; it's about isolating the problem. The assumption isn't that it's an overload thing which is causing your problem, it's about making sure that there is nothing else which could be interfering with <your expected outcome>.

Corruption can happen in completely mysterious ways. Literally. Computer do lots of things to make sure that when they're passing the numbers around the processes, all the numbers are transferred correctly, but there will always be occasions (even with some of the biggest, most expensive software in the world, which I've worked with) when data just doesn't get handled as you'd expect. Sometimes it's just certain combinations of things done in certain orders that exposes problems which wouldn't have previously been observed or experienced..

Computers _mostly_ do what you ask them, but every now and then numbers go wrong, in places we can't see, which then affects stuff you _can_ see.

The folks in this forum know _aaalll_ the tricks to getting Logic working, or, how to hone in on what _might_ be the problem so it can be recreated and reported. You might not like the process of problem determination, but this is how we have to do it or the product doesn't improve. And that's all we want really isn't' it.

[Frankenhaus]

Fisherking, you have yet to really elucidate your actual working situation. If you tell me that you have 150 or more active tracks, 50 busses, and automation every on almost every track on multiple levels, *without bouncing stuff down to eliminate processing*, on an M1 Mac Mini, and your mixing sessions with high quality third-party plugins go off without a glitch and cool as a cucumber... not: "well I bounce to stems and do a separate mixing project"... then we can talk. Otherwise I have no idea if we're comparing apples to apples and your replies are simply lazy and obnoxious. Take a cue from Cunningbao. He's actually communicating and helping. I DID come here for help. You're not doing that. This will be my last angry reply, haha. I'm not here to make a bad impression.

[fisherking]

6 minutes ago, Frankenhaus said:

Fisherking, you have yet to really elucidate your actual working situation. If you tell me that you have 150 or more active tracks, 50 busses, and automation every on almost every track on multiple levels, *without bouncing stuff down to eliminate processing*, on an M1 Mac Mini, and your mixing sessions with high quality third-party plugins go off without a glitch and cool as a cucumber... not: "well I bounce to stems and do a separate mixing project"... then we can talk. Otherwise I have no idea if we're comparing apples to apples and your replies are simply lazy and obnoxious. Take a cue from Cunningbao. He's actually communicating and helping. I DID come here for help. You're not doing that. This will be my last angry reply, haha. I'm not here to make a bad impression.

i can't give you what you want, but i stand by my comments. i earn my living with logic, and have worked with it since about 2009; a lot of pop music, electronica, some scoring work. and 97% of my plugins are 3rd-party (fabfilter, izotope, lots of synths, etc). 

and still that proves nothing; it's just my own humble experience.

my main point is simply this: if you have issues, get help resolving them. nothing more, nothing less. and honestly... good luck, with all of it 👍

[Frankenhaus]

And again, just so everyone is following my logic on this... If I encounter a problem only when a project is very far along and stacked with all kinds of automation and stuff, how could that NOT be some form of an overload issue? That's why the whole strip-it-down-to-one-track thing didn't make sense to me. My problem simply doesn't happen when the session is small. I've never ever had it happen when the session is small.

[polanoid]

43 minutes ago, Frankenhaus said:

My problem simply doesn't happen when the session is small. I've never ever had it happen when the session is small.

The question is, does the problem remain when you make a big session in which it occurs smaller again (and how much smaller did you need to make it). That would a) prove that it is indeed a performance/overload issue in Logic and b) give you or us on this forum a chance to report this to Apple (because frankly I don't see a reason why such an overload should only affect automation).