Logic automation / mixing; limitations and best practices

[Frankenhaus]

Well… I could tell you other glitches that happen too when the projects get big. There are various oddities that I’ve just grown to live with that are actually quite unpleasant. Here are two off the top of my head: 1) Soloing some tracks will make not only that track audible, but a few other seemingly random ones as well. 2) When editing a volume automation line, the track volume (heard, not seen) will sometimes quite unsettlingly jump all the way up to presumably 0.0. As you can imagine, this can be quite loud and annoying. This glitch seems to happen most with group automation, and it seems to be fairly random.

There are just a couple for you. It has always been commonplace for me for the project to handle worse when it has gotten large and near the finishing stage.

To be even clearer on this: I automate at least volume at every step of the way as I record a project, to keep a pleasant mix as I go. So it’s not like the glitches start happening when I start automating. They happen when I get to the mixing phase.

My top intuitive suspicions are: 1) certain plugins that aren’t playing nice (I only bring the boutique ones in at the mix phase), 2) Rosetta not playing nice with Logic when it’s being stretched performance-wise, or 3) simply the limitations of my M1.

[oscwilde]

25 minutes ago, Frankenhaus said:

1) certain plugins that aren’t playing nice (I only bring the boutique ones in at the mix phase), 2) Rosetta not playing nice with Logic when it’s being stretched performance-wise, or 3) simply the limitations of my M1.

1. Yep, certainly has impacted (and continues to impact) many of us here - on small and large projects. The solution is to either ditch the offender/find an alternative or to wait until the dev sorts out the problem and releases a bug fix version.
A workaround for some isolated cases is to run the VST/VST3 version of a given plug in a shell/hosting plug (Blue Cat, etc.) as the AU component is problematic/flaky.

2. This is the BIG one, IMO. It would be interesting to see if bouncing the tracks reliant on Melodyne, then switching to native sees performance/behaviour improve for you. If you have any large projects that don't use Melodyne, it would be a quick thing to test.
Melodyne 5.2 is apparently native-compatible....so updating it and switching to native would be a worthwhile experiment (assuming your "boutique" plugs are also native).
From personal experience - 3 different M1-based Macs - and anecdotally, the move to native was equal measures painful/great. Ultimately, I've sacrificed a few plugs to the gods as the developers have dragged their feet in providing AS support. I had endless grief with Ventura (although it is retained on one Mac which is primarily a PT rig), notably with plug-ins throwing errors.
Sonoma has been a much better experience and is - IMO - the best OS for Logic 10.8.1 / M-based Macs. It is more efficient/slightly faster across the board - although plug-in loading takes longer as this occurs out of process (a trade-off with native vs rosetta mode).

3. I may have overlooked it, but the one spec I didn't see in your posts is the amount of RAM in your M1 mini. How much do you have/is memory pressure an issue?

[Frankenhaus]

I forgot to mention the RAM, sorry. 16GB. Don’t know if that’s good or bad in 2024. I didn’t get the impression that it was skimping on RAM when I bought it. I thought I maxed out the options.

Another very useful and understanding comment overall, thank you!

I’m on the latest Melodyne, and it still doesn’t actually work natively in ARA mode. Pretty unreal. (not that I know the hurdles tech companies face)

One of the first things I will be trying on my next project is going native and running Melodyne the old-fashioned way to see how much that clears up. ARA often loses my edits anyway, so I could choose to view it as only a marginal loss at this juncture.

 Other plugins that seem to introduce project glitch issues when brought into play are UAD and certain iZotope products, such as Nectar. I tried automating Nectar once and Logic said a big fat NOPE and crashed the session.

 These are the kinds of annoyances I’m talking about… I don’t appreciate those who act like they don’t exist or like we’re doing something wrong. If you don’t identify with the problem, maybe consider not commenting? (unless you have a specific suggestion directly related to the issue)

Edited April 12 by Frankenhaus

[Atlas007]

Are you running other apps concomitantly while using Logic? 

[oscwilde]

36 minutes ago, Frankenhaus said:

One of the first things I will be trying on my next project is going native and running Melodyne the old-fashioned way to see how much that clears up. ARA often loses my edits anyway, so I could choose to view it as only a marginal loss at this juncture.

Cool. Look forward to hearing how this works/if performance and behaviour improve.
 

37 minutes ago, Frankenhaus said:

Other plugins that seem to introduce project glitch issues when brought into play are UAD and certain iZotope products, such as Nectar. I tried automating Nectar once and Logic said a big fat NOPE and crashed the session.

UAD AU plugs or external DSP versions?
The latter would be "unusual" and you should check out existing/start another thread if UAD DSP is glitchy.
If this is the case on your rig, it could be at the heart of many of the overall issues you're experiencing?
Izotope products "can" be finicky with plug-in and Logic and OS versions. You need to get the "right" combo of all three to have the best experience. I only run Ozone and Vocalsynth 2. Ozone is solid, but VS2 (latest) has been quirky a couple of times with various Sonoma versions. It crashed out once in earlier Sonoma revs (14.2-ish) and randomly stopped audio throughput in 14.3.x - re-inserted and all was cool. Has been fine in 14.4.1 (and 14.5 beta, so far).
Nectar - running natively - won't crash Logic. It may well crash, but at least it won't take out Logic as well.
Again, it'll be interesting to see if your native experience improves things.

[Frankenhaus]

Atlas: If mean things like internet browser, Splice, etc, then yes. Also sometimes iMessage, Notes, Finder, etc.

[Frankenhaus]

Oscwilde: I am embarrassingly unclear on how UAD stuff works. The whole outboard DSP thing kind of mystifies me. I’m always assuming my computer is doing the work, but maybe it’s my Apollo? I don’t know. Feel free to give me a much needed education on that.

[Atlas007]

3 hours ago, Frankenhaus said:

Atlas: If mean things like internet browser, Splice, etc, then yes. Also sometimes iMessage, Notes, Finder, etc.

Considering that you are seemingly encountering performance issues, it might be worthwhile trying to reserve all your Mac’s resources for Logic (IOW, avoid using other apps while using Logic).

[oscwilde]

6 hours ago, Frankenhaus said:

unclear on how UAD stuff works

Start another thread and we can chat about it there.
We'll try keep this on-topic - although integrating DSP-based processing into the work/mix flow is certainly related, but only to Logic/DAW users who actually own external DSP hardware. Most use the internal processing of their Mac for FX/software instrument processing operations.

[Sir Hannes]

On 4/12/2024 at 11:24 PM, Frankenhaus said:

There are just a couple for you. It has always been commonplace for me for the project to handle worse when it has gotten large and near the finishing stage.

Yes for big projects and yes for smaller as well. I get 150-250 tracks work well but then inserting any plugin confuses the automation, very bad. Right now I am in a small project, 15 tracks, and a PlugIn Alliance plugin gets the honor to let the Logic automation counting the automation values. This looks like a live number counting up or down, so where the playhead is I get the accurate number of a parameter. I can't tell you which parameter, I have 3 parameters of that plugin automating. And all automation lanes counting parallel the same number. And I can't switch this off (nor even on). I feel helpless.

Attached picture is another bug, also with small projects but with big I really shout out loud. Under any circumstances Logic changes all (!) automation lanes into random parameters. This is so terrible as while mixing I rely on these. Top priority parameters are always on top first. Parameters I have to re-work are open too. Now look at the picture: Tempo? Formant? Drive? Why! 😄 A solution sometimes works: Before quitting LogicPro always switch of the display of automation.

I am grateful btw. to this forum that I can share this pain in my stomach with other people. 🙂

Edited April 16 by Sir Hannes

[polanoid]

3 minutes ago, Sir Hannes said:

Attached picture is another bug, also with small projects but with big I really shout out loud. Under any circumstances Logic changes all (!) automation lanes into random parameters. This is so terrible as while mixing I rely on these. Top priority parameters are always on top first. Parameters I have to re-work are open too. Now look at the picture: Tempo? Formant? Drive? Why! 😄

Can you open a separate thread for that please?

[polanoid]

4 minutes ago, Sir Hannes said:

And I can't switch this off (nor even on). I feel helpless.

I don't even understand the issue ("a PlugIn Alliance plugin gets the honor to let the Logic automation counting the automation values"???) so maybe you can decsribe that in more detail (a separate thread would be appropriate as well for that I guess).

[Sir Hannes]

First I clarify, I am not searching for help, my intention posting this was to share with @Frankenhaus that there are many issues going on, and he and others might get too. I hope that he/ they then feels not alone with maybe anger about Logic.

Screenshot is from yesterday, upper lane shows the actual number. A video would show, that the 17% is the value where the playhead is. If it comes closer to a ramp all 17% numbers changes parallel/ together. Also look at the first automation point: it should be a 0, right?

2nd lane the same: the automation point at the ramp should be 0, right?

Hope I could translate it now better. 🙂

[polanoid]

4 minutes ago, Sir Hannes said:

there are many issues going on

and all those issues should be treated in separate threads in this forum. Otherwise, confusion ensues.

5 minutes ago, Sir Hannes said:

Screenshot is from yesterday, upper lane shows the actual number. A video would show, that the 17% is the value where the playhead is. If it comes closer to a ramp all 17% numbers changes parallel/ together. Also look at the first automation point: it should be a 0, right?

 

That looks like a bug in the plug-in itself

[polanoid]

7 minutes ago, polanoid said:

 

That looks like a bug in the plug-in itself

Just installed and checked the demo version of VSM-3, definitely a (100% reproducible) bug in the plug-in. Don't chalk up all of your pains to Logic! You should contact Plugin Alliance on this topic

Edited April 16 by polanoid

[Holger Lagerfeldt]

Although my main job is mastering I also mix 100+ tracks sessions a couple of times a month, but I don't encounter any major or recurring problems in Logic Pro with automation.

It can be slightly sluggish or tricky to make as precise as I'd like on occasion, but most of these challenges are related to PDC, not automation or bugs per se. It can usually be fixed by offsetting automation a bit.

Most stubborn problems are related to third party plug-ins, although Logic still has some PDC issues. As for matching automation values it's apparently a bit more complicated than you'd expect when it comes to how plug-ins interpret or quantize these values, I just let my OCD go and use my ears.

But then again most music doesn't need heaps of automation and loads of plug-ins, less is usually more. Many amateurs (and I mean no offence by that term) are surprised how little is actually going on in many mixing sessions.

[Frankenhaus]

Good thoughts, Holger. I will admit that I am in need of shadowing a mixing engineer. I would really like to know if they have to automate a vocal as much as I do. I suspect things like compressor settings may be at play. I definitely compress, but maybe I don't do it heavily enough. I use my ears and don't compress beyond what sounds good to me. But that might be costing me hours in volume automation. There's also just wacky, over-dynamic singers...

[oscwilde]

5 hours ago, Frankenhaus said:

There's also just wacky, over-dynamic singers...

Yep...a good discussion can fix this at the source.
Moving (dancing) singers don't realise the impact this has - particularly if new to the recording process - when perfoming in front of a sensitive studio condensor.

There's also a "doesn't matter, just fix it in the mix" headspace - given the ability of modern tools to actually do this - but old-school (or just old 😂) engineers/producers lean toward "get the recording right in the first place".

Spending 10 minutes with new singers on (studio) mic technique might save you hours later.
 

[Atlas007]

21 minutes ago, oscwilde said:

Spending 10 minutes with new singers on (studio) mic technique might save you hours later.

…or use a different mic setup altogether… if possible…

Edited April 18 by Atlas007

[Frankenhaus]

Atlas, what is an example of a mic setup that would allow for bad mic technique? I’m having trouble imagining this, other than if one were ok with a distant sound on the mic and everything was sung far away from the mic.

[Atlas007]

22 minutes ago, Frankenhaus said:

Atlas, what is an example of a mic setup that would allow for bad mic technique? I’m having trouble imagining this, other than if one were ok with a distant sound on the mic and everything was sung far away from the mic.

It all depends of what is at stakes here…The possibilities are huge...

I.e., for some situation, one could consider using a worn mic like the Shure SM35-XLR. Or a combination of mics…

There is rarely ideal situation, so It’s often a matter of compromises, admittedly…

Edited April 18 by Atlas007

[somelpuser]

A little late to the party but I had to comment because I've experienced this issue as well and I share your frustration. This is my one issue with Logic. I'm so used to Logic now that I can't fathom to switch. But Logic is the only DAW I've used that has this automation problem. I'm still using an Intel Mac, and you with your M1 have dissipated my thought that maybe an MX would fix this problem. Now, you run it with Rosetta, so I don't know if that has to do, but anyway I just wanted to share how I've experienced and dealt with this.

My projects are never that big. A project with 50 tracks is big to me. And yet the issue happens. I make EDM, and this issue manifests before my big drop when I'm automating everything to create tension. I've not done an extensive analysis of the matter because I've always prioritized moving forward with the project, but it's always stood up to me that when this issue happens either Logic's PhatFX or ST's Alterboy are involved.

What have I done? Well, workarounds and workarounds.

1. Offsetting the automation curve is something I had resisted. I was in a mindset similar to yours of "I shouldn't have to do this". But it does the trick because in my case, Logic has been consistent about how wrong it gets the timing. So I offset the curve until it sounds right. Sometimes it's just one curve with the problem, not all of them, and about that one curve...

2. The offending curve is usually a hard one. Like moving a knob from 0 to 50 suddenly. Logic can't cope with that. So what I do is I ease into the curve. If you really need that instant change, you can first add a straight line and then curve it to the maximum so that it's perceived as an instant change. At the end the important thing is what it sounds like right?

I do this at very high levels of zoom so that curve is very short, to make it really sound as if it was a hard curve.

3. You and I have both experienced this when multiple automation lines are firing, but to continue talking about hard curves, I'd like to also mention how I've found this when creating snare rolls. Yeah the classic and trite trick in 4-on-the-floor music. In this case there are not multiple automation lanes happening. I use that Logic's command that creates 2 auto points at the start of each clip, then I lower the first and leave the other as it was created, like this:

Well it turns out the first snare hit always sounds at full volume for like a millionth of second, but enough to make it an audible click. So again, I have to ease into the curve. This time it's easier because there's nothing in the track playing before, so it can be as simple as this:

You'll note I created an additional clip. It's not meant to have any midi data in it. It's there only so that the auto gets copied when I copy the section. Because if I don't do that then the downward line auto does not get copied and I get the same issue in the repeated section.

4. If the problem is happening in just one very busy section, I duplicate the offending track (the issue rarely happens in more than one track for me). In the duplicate, I remove the plugins and auto lanes that are not needed for that little part. For example, if I remove clips from the duplicate track and as a result of that, there are auto lanes in the track that are flat, they're still auto data, so I make sure I completely delete the flat auto lane. The idea is that the duplicate only has what it needs for that section. Yes, I'm dumbing it down. But you know what? I've found benefits to that. It allows me to keep a tail of the previous fx (like long reverbs and stuff) and blend it in gracefully as the new section starts with the "clean" source. I mention this because I've always heard artists say that limitations can spur new ideas and ways of working. A change of perspective can help. There is a certain sense of satisfaction in getting to know the quirks and bugs of the tool and finding a way to cope with them. Don't get me wrong, I still hate Logic and will recommend another DAW to other EDM producers. I've just turned it into a competition of me against the software and I'm a human so I always win (I bet this one last line will age like milk).

 

[Frankenhaus]

Haha Somelpuser… Good luck getting the Logic worshippers here on board with such an honest, real-world commentary. I appreciate you though, thank you. One thing I know I agree with right off the bat is that it does seem like sometimes the suddenness of the automation change is what Logic can’t handle (when the project has gotten to a certain level of cpu load, or whatever it is).

[polanoid]

4 hours ago, somelpuser said:

Don't get me wrong, I still hate Logic and will recommend another DAW to other EDM producers

So you're only on this forum to spew your hate? Classy!

[polanoid]

39 minutes ago, Frankenhaus said:

Good luck getting the Logic worshippers here on board

There's actually people on this forum who want to help other Logic users ("worshippers" or not) with their problems. That's why it's called logicprohelp, I guess.

[Scriabin rocks]

I joined this forum a year or so ago and spent quite some time here, I have yet to come across "Logic worshippers". Why don't you tone it down a notch or two @Frankenhaus? Since you asked here, people were bending backwards to understand your problems and help you out.

Also, I have yet to come across a forum that is so helpful, technically competent, unbiased and providing a genuine atmosphere of friendship.

Sorry for ranting.

 

Edited April 23 by Scriabin rocks

[David Nahmani]

2 hours ago, Frankenhaus said:

Good luck getting the Logic worshippers here on board

@Frankenhaus No personal attacks or name calling in this forum, we're all better than that. 

This forum is neither a place for blindly worshipping Logic Pro, nor a place to bash Logic Pro. Neither is constructive. 

Quick recap on what this forum is about.

We are here to help each other use Logic Pro.

When someone brings up an issue, we can collectively put our minds together to try and figure out how to resolve it. If the issue cannot be resolved, we try to figure out the easiest way to reproduce the issue, and report our findings to the software developers in order to help them fix it. 

We've offered to have a look at a file that shows an example of the issue you're describing. I've suggested you first make a copy and simplify the file to make it easier on whoever is going to have a look at that file. If you don't want to take the time and effort to do that, you could post your file as is, and sometimes a brave soul is willing to take the time and effort for you!

Simplifying a project file for troubleshooting purposes doesn't imply you should simplify your workflow when actually using Logic Pro, this is just a troubleshooting process.

Allowing others to experiment with an actual Logic project file that displays the issue and trying to remove variables in order to pinpoint the culprit is one of the most efficient troubleshooting methods we've used in the 25 years this Logic Pro community has been active. 

When we do not follow any kind of troubleshooting methodology, all that's left is ranting and conjecturing, which often leads to arguing. That's not constructive, and that's not the purpose of this forum.

Let's focus back to the issue at hand.

[Frankenhaus]

I am completely aware that there are helpful people on this thread, definitely you included, David. And I greatly respect your decorum. Seriously, you do a remarkably good job running this place. However, in my opinion, the fact is that not everyone in here has a kind, open, helping spirit like you. Like most places online, there is bad energy coming from a handful of people. What I don’t appreciate is that the only people being called out here are the ones who have gripes about Logic, or in my case, have gripes about Logic and about people who in fact did NOT come here to help, but to stand smugly above issues that they happen to have not experienced themselves. It’s not a good vibe. I’m not the only one guilty of bad vibes here.

I agree that this site is an extremely helpful place. As I’ve said, I’ve found myself here reading often over the years. But it’s not some Shangri-La of perfect angels only looking to help people.

From here on out, I will not call out what I find obnoxious about anyone here. I think that might be what it takes to remain in this group.

I appreciate (most of) you. Onward!

[David Nahmani]

3 minutes ago, Frankenhaus said:

What I don’t appreciate is that the only people being called out here are the ones who have gripes about Logic, or in my case, have gripes about Logic and about people who in fact did NOT come here to help, but to stand smugly above issues that they happen to have not experienced themselves. It’s not a good vibe. I’m not the only one guilty of bad vibes here.

Duly noted. I'm sure everyone can make an effort to avoid this as well. 

Thank you for being understanding, I appreciate it. 

[Frankenhaus]

Yeah man. 🤝🏻