Best way to convert from one midi CC automation to another (ex. expression to modulation)?

[JMComposer]

Dudes and Dudettes,

I'd like to convert all my midi CC 11 (expression) to midi CC 1 (modulation).  Could you contribute your best way to do this, if it's different from what I do (see below)?  

WHY I WANT THIS:

I'm exporting MIDI stems from Sibelius to Logic.  It looks like all the dynamics are controlled by CC 11 in Sibelius.  However, within Logic, I want to use sample libraries that control dynamics with CC 1.  So I want to convert all CC 11 to CC 1.  

WHAT I'VE TRIED: 

I use the Automation Select tool, drag-select all the Expression automation on a track, go to the Event List, and change Expression to Modulation.  

WHAT I IDEALLY WANT:

1. I want a key command that selects all automation on a track in one stroke.  It's odd, but Logic offers a way to DELETE all visible automation on a track, but not to SELECT all visible automation.  Am I correct in this?  

2. I want a feature to "convert" automation within a window where I can put in two fields: the original automation, the new automation.  Any magic plugins that do this?  

 

As always, thanks to everyone here.  

[polanoid]

1. Click on the value trim entry field in the track header.  That will select all automation displayed on the lane.

2. Hold option while changing the displayed parameter (source) to the desired parameter (destination) using the automation parameter button in the track header . This will display a dialog asking you 

Sincerely,

a Dude.

[des99]

8 minutes ago, JMComposer said:

2. I want a feature to "convert" automation within a window where I can put in two fields: the original automation, the new automation.  Any magic plugins that do this?  

It's confusing as to whether you're referring to *actual* automation, or just recorded MIDI data (which is not automation). If you mean automation, there is a simple way to convert automation data from one parameter to another by simply holding option and selecting a new parameter for that automation parameter lane.

If you mean MIDI, there have been numerous ways of converting from one type of MIDI data to another in Logic since the beginning, including things like MIDI Transform, and they will happily do your necessary MIDI transformations.

[polanoid]

7 minutes ago, des99 said:

If you mean automation, there is a simple way to convert automation data from one parameter to another by simply holding option and selecting a new parameter for that automation parameter lane.

This method works for MIDI CCs (necessarily Region Automation for SI tracks, and also for Track Automation if you have a "classic", i.e. not using the External Instrument plug-in, MIDI Track) as well!

Before:

After (e.g.):

Edited April 10 by polanoid

[des99]

6 minutes ago, polanoid said:

This method works for MIDI CCs (necessarily Region Automation for SI tracks, and also for Track Automation if you have a "classic", i.e. not using the External Instrument plug-in, MIDI Track) as well!

Thanks - I did wonder if this was the case, but couldn't check right now, so I chose not to take a guess and risk being wrong... 😉

[JMComposer]

20 minutes ago, polanoid said:

1. Click on the value trim entry field in the track header.  That will select all automation displayed on the lane.

2. Hold option while changing the displayed parameter (source) to the desired parameter (destination) using the automation parameter button in the track header . This will display a dialog asking you 

Sincerely,

a Dude.

A perfect, elegant solution.  Thank you @polanoid

 

17 minutes ago, des99 said:

It's confusing as to whether you're referring to *actual* automation, or just recorded MIDI data (which is not automation).

Thanks for requesting the clarification @des99 and for your help.  Indeed, I meant MIDI data that is being represented visually in automation-styled lines and nodes.  

[polanoid]

2 minutes ago, JMComposer said:

A perfect, elegant solution.  Thank you @polanoid

One caveat though: It always does the conversion for all regions on the track, unfortunately, if you apply it to region automation. Should be applied to selected regions only IMO, at least if a mixture of selected and unselected regions exists on the track.

Edited April 10 by polanoid

[JMComposer]

2 hours ago, polanoid said:

One caveat though: It always does the conversion for all regions on the track, unfortunately, if you apply it to region automation. Should be applied to selected regions only IMO, at least if a mixture of selected and unselected regions exists on the track.

Ah, that's a useful caveat.  While in this particular case, I'm doing "wholesale" conversions on entire tracks, I will bear your admonition in mind if I need to convert only data on certain regions.  

[Frances O]

14 hours ago, JMComposer said:

Could you contribute your best way to do this, if it's different from what I do (see below)?  

WHY I WANT THIS:

I'm exporting MIDI stems from Sibelius to Logic.  It looks like all the dynamics are controlled by CC 11 in Sibelius.  However, within Logic, I want to use sample libraries that control dynamics with CC 1.  So I want to convert all CC 11 to CC 1.  

1. I want a key command that selects all automation on a track in one stroke.  It's odd, but Logic offers a way to DELETE all visible automation on a track, but not to SELECT all visible automation.  Am I correct in this?  

2. I want a feature to "convert" automation within a window where I can put in two fields: the original automation, the new automation.  Any magic plugins that do this?  

As always, thanks to everyone here.  

Hi

I've had to deal with this importing MIDI files.

My workflow uses a saved project template with the Event List window as focus:

In Event List only 'Controller' is highlighted.

Import MIDI

Select track

Click CC event in list

Shift-D select all same CC events and change CC Number.

Transform Articulations.zip

[JakobP]

Another (quick) alternative is to insert a Modifier midi fx with these settings on the instrument channel strip. It will convert the cc11 to cc1 ""on the fly"... 

[polanoid]

4 hours ago, JakobP said:

Another (quick) alternative is to insert a Modifier midi fx with these settings on the instrument channel strip. It will convert the cc11 to cc1 ""on the fly"... 

OP wants this for exporting MIDI files, so that solution isn't useful for this particular request.

[JakobP]

1 hour ago, polanoid said:

OP wants this for exporting MIDI files, so that solution isn't useful for this particular request.

I believe you're referring to this thread... 😉 

[polanoid]

47 minutes ago, JakobP said:

I believe you're referring to this thread... 😉 

Oops no, sorry, I just misread the original post (export from Sibelius, I read "to")

[Frances O]

FWIW @JMComposer

How are you creating/obtaining MIDI stems in Sibelius. 

Is it possible to change input device for Sibelius to generate MIDI CC 1 not 11?

Sibelius manual indicates various controllers can be used for Dynamic effect.

 

[JMComposer]

Sincere thanks for all the new contributions to this thread. 

This post will summarize the discussion thus far, as well as answer @Frances O's latest question.  

METHOD #1:  The @polanoid method.  Click the Trim button on the track header to select all visual automation on the track, then hold Option while scrolling through CC parameters on the track header.  Selecting another CC parameter while holding Option will give you the option of "Converting" one CC to another.  

METHOD #2: The @Frances O method.  Go to the Event list for the track.  Click on any event that has the CC parameter that you wanna change (ex. Expression).  Then go to Edit (within the Event list window) --> Select --> Similar Events (SEE PICTURE).  This will select all Expression data on the track.  Change Expression to whatever CC you want.  NOTE: in my system, the key command is set to Shift-S as you can see in the picture, which is different than what is set on Frances's system, so check what it is on your system.  

METHOD #3: The @JakobP alternative.  I love the idea of using tools for various functions.  I once used the Modifier MIDI plugin to rescale a faulty expression pedal which wouldn't go all the way to 127.  Wonderful stuff! The only issue is that I don't see the Modifier actually changing the word "Expression" to the word "Modulation" on the Event list, nor do I see the data visually change in the automation lines.  So while I trust that the Modifier is doing its job, I will always have a tiny shadow of a doubt whether the job has been done or not.  Is there something I'm missing here?

******************************************************************************************

Now, to answer @Frances O.  I'm quite new to exporting stems in Sibelius to work in Logic, so it's a workflow-in-progress.  But here are two ways to do it: 

1. Go to the command search and search for "Export Each Instrument as MIDI".  This plugin will enable you to export each instrument as a separate MIDI file.  However, I'm running into a problem: even though I only import one of the MIDI files (like Violin 1), Logic somehow creates a track for ALL the instruments.  Not sure why that's the case, and so I'm planning to visit the Sibelius forum and sort this out.  I will update this thread when I do.  

2. Go to File --> Export --> MIDI

Now for the final question: 

14 hours ago, Frances O said:

Is it possible to change input device for Sibelius to generate MIDI CC 1 not 11?

Sibelius manual indicates various controllers can be used for Dynamic effect.

I understand that you want the MIDI CC to be exported with the CC of your choosing within Sibelius so that you don't have to change it in Logic.  I've actually never tried this, but research is showing that this is a very complicated process that requires either

1. Going into the SoundSet files for whatever instrument is being used for playback (for me it's Noteperformer), and then tweaking the CC values there:   

https://www.sibelius.com/cgi-bin/helpcenter/chat/chat.pl?com=thread&start=704629&groupid=3&&guest=1

2. Filter selecting all the MIDI CC's you want and changing those values: 

https://www.sibelius.com/cgi-bin/helpcenter/chat/chat.pl?com=thread&start=658305&groupid=3&&guest=1

At this point, doing this in Logic seems much more efficient.  

 

Edited April 12 by JMComposer
clarity

[gunbrenner]

If I understood well I think you can do this with MIDI Transform, multiple regions at a time and assign a key command to that Transform Setting:

Select all the regions and apply this midi transform setting, It will copy CC11 to 1 and then you can just delete CC11

 

[JMComposer]

Apologies for the late reply everyone; Tax Day was calling...

@gunbrenner You have provided us with another brilliant solution: the advantage of your method is being able to select many regions and apply the transformation all at once.  

****************************************

Folks who are beginners, to use the @gunbrenner method, access MIDI transform by going to Window-->Open MIDI Transform (my key command is Cmd-9 but yours might be different). 

Within the MIDI transform window, click on where the red arrow is pointing (see picture below), and "Create New Transform Set".  Then make the settings the same as you see in gunbrenner's post above.  Then you can rename the field that says "Presets" to whatever you want this new tool to be called.  I called it "Change CC 11 to CC 1".  And there you have it.  

******************************************

And there you have it folks, a total of FOUR METHODS for transforming one MIDI CC to another.    Let's thank the Fantastic Four who have brought these methods to us: 

1. @polanoid

2. @Frances O

3. @JakobP

4. @gunbrenner

******************************************

@Frances O I have received an answer from Sibelius forums about how to make the command "Export Each Instrument as MIDI" work properly.  You must first go to File --> Export --> MIDI and check the box that says "Omit Muted Instruments."  Then you need to triple click on whatever instrument staff you want to export as MIDI.  And voila, only that instrument gets exported.  

[Frances O]

A nice summary of CC transform methods.

I feel my question may not have been clear regarding input to Sibelius.

I was wondering how you 'Input' your data to Sibelius? Do you use a MIDI keyboard or other controller of some kind etc?

I was trying to get at what generates CC11 and change it at source to CC1 before your data is recorded into Sibelius.

Or is this CC11 data generated as a parameter working directly within Sibelius itself?

[gunbrenner]

2 hours ago, JMComposer said:

@gunbrenner You have provided us with another brilliant solution: the advantage of your method is being able to select many regions and apply the transformation all at once.  

I'm glad it helps! Just want to clarify that this method I got it from the Logic Media Composer Grid for Metagrid Pro. It had also other useful midi transform commands. 

[JMComposer]

21 hours ago, Frances O said:

I was wondering how you 'Input' your data to Sibelius? Do you use a MIDI keyboard or other controller of some kind etc?

I was trying to get at what generates CC11 and change it at source to CC1 before your data is recorded into Sibelius.

Or is this CC11 data generated as a parameter working directly within Sibelius itself?

@Frances O This is a terrific question that interests me as well, so I conducted the following experiment, which provides some clues as to how the CC data is being inputted, interepreted, and generated within Sibelius.  

I don't do any inputting of MIDI CC data in Sibelius (except to set string vibrato strength).  I only input what is traditionally seen in a score - dynamic markings, crescendos, accents, etc.  Within Sibelius, these markings are somehow being interpreted as CC data.  Exactly how this is done is the million dollar question.  So in my experiment, I took three playback engines and tried exporting MIDI, then importing in Logic.  Here's what I found:

1. Noteperformer - exporting as MIDI is imported within Logic as CC 11.  

2. Sibelius original sounds - exporting as MIDI is imported within Logic as CC 1.

3. Sibelius Sound Set Project using LA Scoring Strings sound set - exporting as MIDI is imported within Logic as CC 1.  Which makes sense, because for LA Scoring Strings, dynamics are controlled with CC 1.

This leads me to hypothesize that this interpretation of dynamics is happening "under the hood" within the playback engine that you choose.  How to alter this interpretation is a question that is beyond my scope at the moment, and brief explorations into this territory reveal that it's a convoluted process.   

Hope that sheds some light on your question.

@gunbrenner Thanks for mentioning this.  I've never heard of Metagrid Pro, and it looks like a great resource.  

[Frances O]

Thank you for such a detailed response. You have enlarged my understanding of Sibelius. I only have a fleeting knowledge of this program but am considering it as a scoring tool.
What I have understood is that Sibelius dynamic markings generate MIDI which is interpreted as different CCs by different playback media within the program.