recording Kurzweil 2500 Setups into Logic MIDI Tracks?

[knolan]

Hi -

 

A question for Kurzweil owners who have done this or someone very savy with Logic MIDI and can make a suggestion -

 

I own Logic Pro 7.1 and a Kurzweil K2500. I'm trying to record my playing of Kurzweil MIDI Setups into Logic, but there are difficulties.

 

A Kurzweil Setup is a MIDI grouping of up to 8 Kurzweil programs, each on its own MIDI transmit and receive channel. Hence when I play the Kurzweil setup, the Kurzweil keyboard transmits on up to 8 MIDI channels at once.

 

I have a basic configuration working - by assigning 8 MIDI tracks on the arrange page and record enabling them, then by switching Local off on the Kurzewil, the keyboard sends the (up to) 8 MIDI channels to Logic which then triggers the 8 programs in the Kurzweil setup.

 

However, it does not sound the same as when plaing the Kurzweil setup 'Locally' only. I suspect the difference is that all Local Velocity and Keyboard zoning info inherent in the Kurzweil setup is ignored when playing MIDI remotely through Logic.

 

Hence I suspect I need to know how to have Logic work with Kurzweil setups in such a way that when played, the setup sounds correct (as when played locally) and with the correct MIDI data recorded into logic and retransmitted to the Kurzweil.

 

Thanks,

Kevin.

[fader8]

knolan,

 

I'm not clear what you're trying to accomplish. If you simply want to play Kurzweil Setups from Logic, you only need one track/channel. Just be sure that on the MIDI:Receive page you have a LocalKbdCh set up. This will remap the incoming MIDI to all the appropriate zones and their channels in the setup and will include all MIDI processing in the setup.

[knolan]

Hi fader8

 

- thanks for your pointer- I don't fully understand your recommendation but your suggestion sounds like it may work. I do simply want to play the (up to) 8 programs of a setup into logic from the kurzweil keyboard and then have logic replay it.

 

What puzzles me about your suggestion is that if I record enable the 8 arrange page tracks assigned to the kurzweil setup and each is receiving midi data from the keyboard in setup mode when I'm playing it, why doesn't each MIDI stream coming in from the kurzweil play all 8 channels - as if it were several pyhsical keyboard connected to logic where each keyboard would play all arrange page selected tracks.

 

Perhaps that is happening and hence why it sounds peculiar? In any case I'll definitely check out the point you make.

 

Thanks a million,

Kevin.

[fader8]

What puzzles me about your suggestion is that if I record enable the 8 arrange page tracks assigned to the kurzweil setup and each is receiving midi data from the keyboard in setup mode when I'm playing it, why doesn't each MIDI stream coming in from the kurzweil play all 8 channels - as if it were several pyhsical keyboard connected to logic where each keyboard would play all arrange page selected tracks.

 

Each of the 8 setup zones can be configured independently as to whether they transmit to MIDI, Local, Both, or Off. This is set in the zone's Destination field. So, if you want it that way you can certainly achieve that. But I think what you want is just the same as how I use it as I have the rack version. Using the Local Keyboard Channel function just replaces the input from the keybed with what is coming in from a single MIDI channel. Think of it as a shortcut

[knolan]

Hi fader8 -

 

Thanks a million for your replies. I have owned the K2500XS for a few years (bought 2nd hand in great condition). I love it, but find its architecture tricky and have never integrated it with Logic in Setup mode..

 

But you have 'made the penny drop' on how to exploit its setups in Logic - I've very excited about that - its still a very respectible synthesizer/workstation. So thanks a million - your staight forward explanations are exactly what I needed to remove my remaining confusion and to 'get' how to use it with Logic.

 

Cheers,

Kevin.

[knolan]

Hi fader8 -

 

I'm afraid your suggestion does not work. I still think the issues I've mentioned about Logic pro apply.

 

Firstly, I believe my situation is different to yours because I'm using the k2500 keyboard. Hence whether playing the setup locally or via midi, I'm transmitting on 8 channels to logic, not simply one channel. Then, since I have one track per channel record enabled on the arrange page as per your instructions (I think!), and since logic streams ALL incoming MIDI to each and every record enabled track, that means I have 8 midi channels of data from the Kurzweil playing each Logic track, and those 8 midi channels worth of midi data per track (a total of 64 midi channels worth of data) are then being sent back to my Kurzweil (i think) because it's being played via Logic.

 

In your scenario - and correct me if I'm wrong - you're using a midi controller transmitting on just one channel to the Kurzweil module.

 

it looks lik a K2500 or K2600 keyboard cannot be used with Logic Pro when wanting to play and record Setups.

 

If you can spot a flaw in my reasoning or can suggest anything else I'd be very grateful - this bloody Kurzweil combined with Logic is driving me nuts; and the Kurzweil manual does not help.

 

Thanks,

Kevin.

[fader8]

OK, first things first. Pencil in some notes on one track set for the Kurz on MIDI channel one.

 

With the LocalKbdCh parameter set to channel one, does the sequence play the setup as it should? Sound normal?

[knolan]

Hi fader8 -

 

I've just seen your reply now - I must have missed it earlier in the week.

 

Alas, no - the setup does not record or playback through Logic in the way you ask - I cannot get it to record and play Setups via one channel only.

 

Note that Logic is set up OK - I successfully record a Korg OASYS and various other synthesizers - so the K2500XS is setup correctly as a multiinstrument in Logic Pro. I can record/playback in Program mode no bother. Indeed, in Program mode I have 16 programs assigned over 16 MIDI channels and can record play them back no problem.

 

The issue is specific to Setups in the K2500XS. What I can 'kind of' successfully do is play a Setup on the K2500XS into Logic and have it record on all the enables tracks (appropriate to the Setup). At least I think that's what its doing because the playback isn't sounding accurate to playing the Setup in isolation. But the replayed tracks do not preserve the MIDI Velocity and Zone information so the replay of wrong.

 

I would be very grateful to you if you could provide me with a single but complete example of that you have done to be able to record Setups successfully into Logic and have Logic replay them successfully. In other words:

 

- What Keyboard controller do you use?

- What MIDI Channel(s) does it transmit on

- How is the K2500R set up in Logic for you - Single or Multi Instrument?

- Do you have its 16 MIDI channels set for Midi thru in the Envoronment?

- Do you have one or multiple Arrange page tracks set up?

- How is your K2500R MIDI Mode configuration precisely setup, for both setup and receive?

- Do you have to set your program to 0 - 'none' when recording in Setup Mode?

- What way do you have your Setup's confgured - ie - fo you have to edit them for Logic Recording?

 

I realise I'm asking a lot here; but I've being trying to get this working on and off for over 2 years, and still without success. Any additional help you can offer will be greatly appreciated.

 

Cheers,

Kevin.

[fader8]

Hi Kevin,

 

I'd be happy to answer all that, but first, I just need to know what you have the parameter I've arrowed below set to.

[knolan]

Hi fader8 -

 

Firstly - thanks a million for your perseverance.

 

By default, my MIDI receive page looks absolutely identical to yours - every parameter - including LocalKbdCh: None.

 

Not sure what that tells you! Hopefully you can enlighten me!!

 

One other question associated with the previous questions I posted - do you have the K2500 setup as a multi-instrument in the Logic environment; or do you treat it as a single instrument even when using it in Setup mode?

 

 

Thanks,

Kevin.

[fader8]

By default, my MIDI receive page looks absolutely identical to yours - every parameter - including LocalKbdCh: None.

 

OK. Change that LocalKbdCh parameter to channel 1.

 

For now, let's forget about the keybed on the Kurzweil and just make sure a MIDI track in Logic can play a setup and sound right.

 

Create an Instrument, (not a multi) in the environment and assign its port to the kurz. Set its channel to 1. Check its icon.

 

Create a MIDI track and a region. Point the track to your new Instrument. Select the region, open the piano roll and draw in a few bars of long notes.

 

You should be hearing the setup now exactly as if you were playing it from the kurz's keys.

 

That LocalKbdCh setting is CRUCIAL if you want to play setups on the kurz with a sequencer or another keyboard so be dead sure it's set to channel 1. Let's make sure that part works before we set up a zone to transmit MIDI from the keybed to Logic, OK?

[knolan]

Hi fader8 -

 

I followed your instructions _exactly_ but it does not work!

 

No sound can be heard from the Kurzweil.

 

But - to prove that I set up Logic and the MIDI sequence region exactly as you specified and I believe there is nothing wrong on the Logic side, if I set LocakKbdCh back to 'none' and set the K2500 into Program mode, the sequence plays perfectly on the chosen program. This verifies that I have set up the (single) MIDI instrument correctly in the Logic Environment, correctly created a MIDI Track in the Arrange page and pointed it to the (single) instrument, correctly created a MIDI region on that track on the arrange page using the pencil tool and correctly added notes to that region using the mouse in the Matrix editor. And it verifies that the physical/electronic path from the sequence to my Kurzweil is correct because the MIDI data from the region is being transmitted to Port 1 / MIDI Channel 1 on my MOTU Timepiece AV - which is what the Kurzewil is connected to - which then correctly plays on MIDI channel one when in program mode.

 

But - setting the LocakKbdCh to 1 and setting the Kurzweil to Setup mode does not play the Setup - no sound can be heard from the Kurzweil whatsoever.

 

From the manual, my understanding of LocalKbdCh (which is incomplete ) is that it is about taking 'control' information only from a remote MIDI source to the rack version of the K2500, sending it to 'three Setup 'zones' '. This parameter, to me, does not seem to be about MIDI note transmission and MIDI loops. I'll be more than happy to stand corrected if you can provide an explanation.

 

Actually - can you tell me in particular why you indicated in your last post that the LocalKbdCh is vital. And any other understanding you have regarding the connection between the K2500's Setup and MIDI modes and its connection to an external sequencer would be much appreciated. Either it is not possible to play Setups from Logic MIDI tracks (which you indicate from experience IS possible) or I'm missing something vital in my understanding of the K2500. I'm trying to understand the manual, but it's not clear to me why you expected me to hear a Setup playing from Logic when setting LocalKbdCh to 1. It's frustrating. I've been over two years trying to resolve this.

 

One last thing that that illustrates just how confusing the Kurzweil is. When I leave LocalKbdCh set to none and switch to Setup mode, Logic _still_ plays the Program (a piano), as if the K2500 was till in Program mode! I realise that Kurzweil Setups are not the same as Yamaha Multi's or Korg Combis, but why in God's name is it playing a Program when a setup was selected? I believe this is at the heart of my mis-comprehension of this instrument, and again any clarity you can provide will be of real value.

 

Irrespective of how this works out - I am grateful to you for you time and expertise to date - I genuinely mean that.

 

Thanks once again,

Kevin.

[knolan]

fader8 -

 

I have figured out a valid way to record and replay setups - indeed with an email suggestion from Kurzweil themselves which I did nto understand but, thought discussing with you - have provided an understanding of their suggestions!

 

Here's how I do it:

 

- Leave LocalKbdCh to None.

- Set MIDI Transmit to Both (Local and MIDI)

- Set up a Multi instrument in Logic

- set up 8 Tracks on the arrange page

- Set demix by MIDI channel

- Crucially - disable MIDI through in Logic when recording - ie, disable output from the arrange Tracks to the K2500 when recording only

- then record in Logic what I play on the Lurzweil setup (and I can hear it because the MIDI mode is set to Both)

- once recorded, reconnect the Logic MIDI through (reconnect MOTU MidiTimepiece Port 1 to the Multinstrument)

- Play!

 

and it plays perfectly!

 

 

fader8 - it is very much though your time and interaction (as well as valued pointers form Lurzweil) that I have just resolved this. I still can't get your suggestion to work , but I do now have a valid way of recording Kurzweil Setups into Logic. I once again thank you for your time and expertise - it is only through this thread that I have sustained this effort personally though to a solution - and I'm very grateful.

 

Any further insight you can provide will be appreciated, but at leat I have a solution (after 2 years!)

 

 

Wishing you a very happy new year.

 

cheers,

Kevin.

[fader8]

Hi Kevin,

 

Glad you got it sussed out. I'm afraid this is one of those places where the rack and keyboard versions differ in operation. I was suspecting that, which is why I wanted you to try it first. The procedure you got from Kurzweil is great and while it seems like a workaround, it'll be worth it.

 

The K2500 in Setup mode is about as complex a beast as you'll ever encounter, but it is extremely powerful. Because Setups entail both multitimbral synth settings as well as keyboard mappings and zones, this just feeds the potential for confusion even more. Local on and off are not such simple concepts anymore.

 

But give it time. Reading the Kurzweil manual is an exercise in absorption. Then one day, all the pieces fall into place. It just takes patience, but after that it's like riding a bike!