TheBarber Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 (edited) I made this skeleton of a composition yesterday (http://www.fileden.com/files/2006/9/5/204289/02_piano-beat.mp3) and showed it a friend today, he counted to it and said it's in 2/4. I said "no, I made it in 4/4", he said "no, you made a 2/4 beat in a 4/4 environment" (or in other words on a 4/4 grid). He also said that 2/4 is close related to 4/4. That makes sense to me, divide the 4 into half and you got 2. He said you can also do 6/8 in a 4/4 environment. Now something I always had a hard time to understand and till this day I haven't get the hang out of it is time signature. I have to say this friend is an oriental keyboardist, he also performs every weekend. So he has a much better knowledge and experience in those things, I'm not doubting what he says I'm just trying to understand how he came to that conclusion, that quick.(?) And how he was able to be 100% sure about this, like it's so obvious.(?) He tried to explain me WHY it's 2/4 but I didn't understand a damn word he was talking about. He was all of the times referring to the drums tho, not the instrumentation. Can someone fill me in on this? I've looked for instructions on time signature on the internet, I have a little bit of a better picture, I understand why there is something like time signature in the first place, but I don't know how to bring out the best of time signature for my own profit in my compositions, let alone even identifying time signature on songs I don't know. Edited February 27, 2009 by TheBarber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Nahmani Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 That link was full of spam, pop-up windows, surveys... could you upload your song to a more serious host and please share it again with us? Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muses Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 I havent heard the piece yet, but... you can't be absolutely certain whether it's 2/4, 2/8, 2/16, or 2/any-such-number, as that's impossible to hear it. You can kind of tell if the numerator should be 2 or 4 by getting a sense of the melody, but even then, I always find it hard to tell. What you can tell by hearing it, though, is if something should be in simple (or duple) or a compound time signature. Simple time signatures are: 2/4, 4/8, 8/8, 3/4, etc. Compound time signatures are: 3/8, 9/4, 12/4, etc. In the simplest way of explaining this, simple subdivides the beats into 2, while compound subdivides the beat into 3 (can kinda feel waltzy, you know - although a waltz is technically in simple time 3/4). I'll hear your piece when you've reloaded it as David's asked and tell you my thoughts on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBarber Posted February 27, 2009 Author Share Posted February 27, 2009 That link was full of spam, pop-up windows, surveys... could you upload your song to a more serious host and please share it again with us? Thanks! Why do I have to bite the bullet because you don't have a pop up blocker lol jk.. IDK what you encountered but it always worked great for me and for my social circle for sharing simple mp3 files, it's quick, easy and in highest mp3 quality. You don't need to look at the banners around the player. But I uploaded it on a different server, hope to get at least some answers as compensation I hope ppl won't complain now because I make them download the file. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muses Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 This is always open for debate, but it sounds pretty much as 4 as anything I've ever heard... Kick on 1 and 3 Snare on 2 and 4 That's rock and roll, baby! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Nahmani Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 That link was full of spam, pop-up windows, surveys... could you upload your song to a more serious host and please share it again with us? Thanks! Why do I have to bite the bullet because you don't have a pop up blocker lol jk.. FYI I'm using Firefox with the pop-up blocker on. Still got a pop up with an ad that filled my screen upon clicking the link. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBarber Posted February 28, 2009 Author Share Posted February 28, 2009 That link was full of spam, pop-up windows, surveys... could you upload your song to a more serious host and please share it again with us? Thanks! Why do I have to bite the bullet because you don't have a pop up blocker lol jk.. FYI I'm using Firefox with the pop-up blocker on. Still got a pop up with an ad that filled my screen upon clicking the link. lol, sorry to hear that david, muses, thanks for the input, ... I really would like to know what the metering difference between 2/4 and 4/4 is, I'm not talking about the difference in notation, that should be obvious, the one has two beats per measure while the other has 4 beats per measure... but what is the difference musicially? Can you hear a difference at all? Maybe if we'd know that answer to that question it would clear this whole thing up. I kinda know how a 4/4 has to sound, but how has a 2/4 to sound? I mean at the end of the day you can't really rely all on drums, so you have to count in the instrumentation as well, and since I played the piano and the bass to a 4/4 metrenome it should be 4/4... I might be totally off tho... IDK... I tend to 4/4 as well, as muses .... cuz I don't see any argument why it shouldn't be 4/4. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muses Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 It's slightly hard to say, because a composition written in 2/4 can easily sound exactly the same if written in 2/4.... it's just math. I say your piece is a strong contender for 4/4 mostly due to genre. Usually rock songs with that drum line are written out in 4/4. You're changing a chord per 4 beats as well, so that makes it also feel like 4. Again, I could write that piece out in 2/4 or 4/4 and it could be performed the exact same way. I've studied pieces written in 6/16... does it sound like 6/8 or even 2/4 subdividing each quarter into triplets? Sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muses Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 oops, my top line should read: that a composition in 2/4 can sound like one in 4/4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fader8 Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 A slow tempo and phrasing might dictate a 2/4 meter. For example, "Daisy, Daisy, give me your answer do. I'm half crazy, over the love of you." is probably easier for a musician to count in 2/4. Your song would definitely be 4/4 because of the piano phrasing. If it was 2/4, and you asked me to take it from bar 5, then I'd have to think a bit before I started playing! It may even be inside tied notes, too. 4/4 would definitely be easier to read, as you could use dotted notes, etc., and to reference bars without having half of them fall in the middle of a phrase. It's really all about what makes it easier for the conductor and player. Here's a page that describes it pretty well: http://www.musicarrangers.com/star-theory/t19.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBarber Posted February 28, 2009 Author Share Posted February 28, 2009 Thank you guys a lot, I'll go on monday to this friend and rub it in, I'm already excited to see his face haha jk fader8, that's a great site you posted there, just noticed I usually played my Bb Trumpets way to high on the keyboard dammit.... Did you ever try the lessons there? And are there more of those sites that show you how to play acoustic instruments on a keyboard properly? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wilx Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 A slow tempo and phrasing might dictate a 2/4 meter. For example, "Daisy, Daisy, give me your answer do. I'm half crazy, over the love of you." ...that's in 6/8. Although you count 6/8 in 2 beats so I see your point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fader8 Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 A slow tempo and phrasing might dictate a 2/4 meter. For example, "Daisy, Daisy, give me your answer do. I'm half crazy, over the love of you." ...that's in 6/8. Although you count 6/8 in 2 beats so I see your point. Yeah, probably not the best example, but all I could think of at the moment! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nublu Posted March 2, 2009 Share Posted March 2, 2009 I hear the repeating piano phrase as 4 bars of 4/4. A good place to get a "feel" for 2/4 time is in Celtic Music. Specifically Reels, Airs, Marches, Quicksteps, Contra dances... Enjoy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimmyDoorlocks Posted March 10, 2009 Share Posted March 10, 2009 4/4, 2/4, 1/8, whatever you want to call it, it's all the same. The only reason there are time signatures is to help with sheet music and bar divisions, make it look pretty an organized. There is absolutely no difference. Even when you get into 3rds, 6/8, 3/4. Same thing. This gets a little hairy when you're doing 13/4 or something, which is just 2 bars of 4/4 and then a bar of 5/4, so just doing your line, and adding an extra quarter note. I think what he meant by 4/4 environment is that your chord changes are taking place over 4 quarter notes, and your melody is over 2. A quarter not is a quarter note no matter what time sig, a dotted half note is a dotted half note. Erik Satie didn't even use time sigs. Don't listen to people, especially musicians, including me. Those silly details don't matter, if it sounds good it sounds good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muses Posted March 11, 2009 Share Posted March 11, 2009 Careful, JimmyDoorlocks... you're only kind of halfway there. As I mentioned above, yes, you can use almost any time signature and, like you said, it really only serves the purpose of how it's written, not necessarily how it's performed... on the whole BUT you cannot say 3/4 is the same as 6/8. They are fundamentally different in their performance. If you give professional musicians a score in 6/8, and you had intended a feel of 3/4, you may have a difficult time trying to get them to play it as such. Even if they get it, a lot of time potentially gets wasted trying to explain what you had in mind and for them to try to sight transcribe what you had in mind, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimmyDoorlocks Posted March 11, 2009 Share Posted March 11, 2009 How? If it's count the same...? A swung 8th is still a swung 8th...? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muses Posted March 11, 2009 Share Posted March 11, 2009 3/4 is counted ... 1 and 2 and 3 and 6/8 is counted ... 1 and-a 2 and-a 3/4 is considered duple time 6/8 is compound time It's not about swung anything, that's a different thing. An examples of swing is music written in 2/4 can sound like 6/8. A lot of (if not all) jazz music is written in this way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nublu Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 Make room for the fact that there is such a thing as rhythmic dialect. You know, various peoples in different places in different times, and all that. Their choices in the way they recorded those rhythms on a piece of paper are part of that dialect. And then there is the Samba! A lot of Sambas are written in 2/4. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slamthecrank Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 ah yes, as Nublu noted... getting your hands on some hand-written Cuban music will open your eyes to "various" time signatures. 'Son' music is especially colorful in its various instrument parts - having seen some music with percussion written in a compounding time and the melody in a simple/duple time, but noted on page as "casado" (married). I have an acquaintance who decided, for his senior recital at music school, to "arrange" Paul Desmond's "Take Five" - in 4/4 time (yes, taking out that famous 5th beat.... bad idea!). Thankfully, his instructor strongly encouraged him to do something else. There are some melodies that just simply will not work in other time signatures, and while I understand your point, JimmyDoorlocks (that anything can be written in any time sig), the mangling of bar-lines is simply not worth the effort when a melody is so obviously contained in a prior-accepted form. (for instance, a march is in 2/4 (or 6/8) 99% of the time - writing a march in 5/4 would be an exercise in teeth-gnashing.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chipe Posted April 8, 2009 Share Posted April 8, 2009 If I were to write the music down, I would write it in 4/4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logicality Posted April 26, 2009 Share Posted April 26, 2009 Your friend is talking gibberish! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valdalen Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 The aspect of the music that separates 2/4 from 4/4 is the harmonic changes. It applies to all the relatives halves ( 4/4 - 2/4, 12/8 - 6/8 ). Classical scores are great examples as they are written meticulously for theoretical correctness. I am lacking my better examples but here are a few. 12/8 - Isn't she lovely (stevie wonder) -changes are usually every 4 beats (1 bar) 6/8 - I wan to live in America (berstein) - changes are every bar ugh there are so many songs in 4/4 but to think up an example?... polkas are in 2/4 because the changes happen every 2 beats, or bar. Hopefully I can get some more examples. Hopefully this makes sense... I will admit I am writing this in a class Valdalen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dre Posted July 4, 2009 Share Posted July 4, 2009 You could argue that it's in 2/4, but what's the use. It sounds like 4/4 to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m2mathew Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 6/8 - I wan to live in America (berstein) - changes are every bar Isn't this song actually in 6/8, 3/4? Very interesting topic. I am a professional percussionist with tons of music theory training. Obviously I take rhythm seriously! Could be written in all 6/8 or 3/4, BUT it feels like it is in 6/8 alternating with 3/4. my 2¢ Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muses Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 6/8 - I wan to live in America (berstein) - changes are every bar Isn't this song actually in 6/8, 3/4? Very interesting topic. I am a professional percussionist with tons of music theory training. Obviously I take rhythm seriously! Could be written in all 6/8 or 3/4, BUT it feels like it is in 6/8 alternating with 3/4. my 2¢ Mike Yes, you're absolutely correct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nublu Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 6/8 - I wan to live in America (berstein) - changes are every bar Isn't this song actually in 6/8, 3/4? Very interesting topic. I am a professional percussionist with tons of music theory training. Obviously I take rhythm seriously! Could be written in all 6/8 or 3/4, BUT it feels like it is in 6/8 alternating with 3/4. my 2¢ Mike Yes, you're absolutely correct. No, you are not. Follow the clap/snare thing on the 2 and 4 beat. 4 bars of 4/4 and the phrase repeats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muses Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 Nublu... are you talking about the OP's music or the one m2mathew is referring to? Because, I can assure you, the score Bernstein wrote is written exactly 6/8 to 3/4 alternating meters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nublu Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 The OP's song. And OOPs and sorry! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muses Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 Nublu, I went back and read your comments on this thread and realize now that you must have meant the OP's song, since you sound like you know your s#!+. Much peace. 8) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.