Best way to A-B in Logic?

[Tankfield]

I suggest you never route anything to Output 1-2, except a bus you have created as a Mix Bus and your reference track.

 

Route everything else to the Mix Bus and insert all your output plug-ins here, not in Output 1-2.

[shivermetimbers]

Awesome, this is great guys. Can we take it one step further?

 

I've been using the bypass channel strip setting button that David created here:

http://www.logicprohelp.com/viewtopic.php?t=10694

 

Can we keep it simple with the toggle the solo button on the reference track but when the solo button is pressed to listen to the reference track, the plugs on the Out 1-2 track are bypassed so we can hear the reference without the bus compressor. If we're comparing with last nights mix, we don't want to hear the bus compressor twice.

 

I'm an Enviro noob so right now if I plug David's Transformer from the A/B into the Bypass button macro it works but opposite of what I want. Now when I solo the reference track the plugs stay on and when the reference track is muted the plugs go off. We need the opposite. Just need to reverse something in there. Much appreciated.

 

Let me get this straight...

 

You are saying that your reference track has all the FX and is now an audio track. The problem is when comparing it with the LOGIC tracks, it is getting process through the OUTPUT 1-2 channels that has FX plugs on its channels?

 

So you want to hear your reference track through the output 1-2 without the master FX?

 

If I am in the ballpark, then have a look at this...

 

http://www.logicprohelp.com/viewtopic.php?t=35749&highlight=bypass

[kokobeware]

Let me get this straight...

 

You are saying that your reference track has all the FX and is now an audio track. The problem is when comparing it with the LOGIC tracks, it is getting process through the OUTPUT 1-2 channels that has FX plugs on its channels?

 

So you want to hear your reference track through the output 1-2 without the master FX?

 

If I am in the ballpark, then have a look at this...

 

http://www.logicprohelp.com/viewtopic.php?t=35749&highlight=bypass

 

 

Exactly! Perfect thanks to Shiv and David for coming up with these.

[shivermetimbers]

Here is an update to use the ref channel SOLO button to bypass the FX on the output channel.

Shivs Ref Solo Switch 09.logic.zip

[wilx]

3.) (Still in LEARN MODE) click on the mixer MUTE button and press ONE time (light off), the same controller button you used for solo. Click on the LEARN button to exit LEARN MODE.

 

If all went well, you now have a controller set up to toggle your REFERENCE track from SOLO to MUTE without the use of the Environment.

 

Didn't work

 

Each time I press the button on my controller, it scrolls through:

 

[press] solo

[press] solo & mute

[press] mute

[press] no solo or mute

[qtruck]

Here is an update to use the ref channel SOLO button to bypass the FX on the output channel.

 

This is great!

 

Thanks

[ski]

I haven't downloaded any of the environments here, but there seems to be an awful lot of discussion about something which (maybe?) should be really simple. Here's the concept:

 

You route your audio track to output on unused Bus which dumps (naturally) into an aux. Then you set up a switch (connected to a few transformers) that toggles that aux between mute and solo:

 

Button on = solo. Button off = mute.

 

I've attached an environment that demonstrates this. The "works" are contained within a macro. Apologies if this is a repeat of what's been posted here before.

A-B-er SKI.logic.zip

[wilx]

I haven't downloaded any of the environments here, but there seems to be an awful lot of discussion about something which (maybe?) should be really simple. Here's the concept:

 

You route your audio track to output on unused Bus which dumps (naturally) into an aux. Then you set up a switch (connected to a few transformers) that toggles that aux between mute and solo:

 

Button on = solo. Button off = mute.

 

I've attached an environment that demonstrates this. The "works" are contained within a macro. Apologies if this is a repeat of what's been posted here before.

 

Thanks for that - but why would you need to send the audio track through an aux? Couldn't you just connect the switch directly to the audio track?

 

That switch works a treat by the way - but is there any way I can have it triggered by a midi controller? Lean mode cites 'no destination parameter' and won't let me apply a key command for it.

[ski]

Wilx,

 

You're correct... there's no reason the audio track has to go through a bus. Not sure where I was going with that. So just take grab that red cable and drag it to the audio channel of your choice and bingo, it works.

 

If you like this functionality I can modify it to contain shivermetimber's FX muting for Output 1/2 as well.

[shivermetimbers]

Wilx,

 

You're correct... there's no reason the audio track has to go through a bus. Not sure where I was going with that. So just take grab that red cable and drag it to the audio channel of your choice and bingo, it works.

 

If you like this functionality I can modify it to contain shivermetimber's FX muting for Output 1/2 as well.

 

Actually, I think most every option and combination has been found by all participants.

 

The FX muting I provided is based on Davids original post from '07. I modified it to be a bigger part of a 'Borg' environment.

 

A few methods have also been posted about muting/soloing the same track.

 

All that needs to be done at this point is to use a mouse or a controller.

 

The use of the mouse simply involves clicking the SOLO switch tho hear the REF track and bypass the output FX.

 

For a controller, simply click the ref SOLO button and LEARN it.

 

In wilx's case, this should be possible on the DUET.

 

The example in this post has 3 reference tracks and can be controlled by mouse clicking the solo switch. The Ref track should be returned to a mute state before soloing another Ref track.

 

THe solo switch can be learned and set to 'Selected track' for total remote control.

 

 

If only we could replicate Digital Performs' snapshot function.

Multi REF main Bp.logic.zip

[Archy]

wow, I'm impressed

thanks to you, Shivermetimbers (and everyone) for that great and usefull tip !

(and great lesson to learn, I will try to understand your environment)

[ski]

Shiv, Scandor, Environmentalists...

 

Can you confirm some behavior? I'm working on my own version of this and running into something I can't explain...

 

I have the output of a channel strip cabled to a transformer, and the transformer is cabled back to the channel strip (cs). It's a loop. The idea is this: if the cs is muted, turning on solo will cause the track to unmute. Then, the opposite: if the track is solo'd, turning off solo causes the track to mute again.

 

Programming: if the cs starts out muted and I turn on the solo button the cs outputs fader3,1. The transformer, in turn, generates a mute off event (fader9,0) and that's fed back to the cs. This works! Then, the opposite: turning off the solo button on the cs (fader3,0) causes the transformer to generate a mute on event (fader9,1). This is fed back to the cs as well. This doesn't work... and that's what I can't explain.

 

Any insights appreciated as to why I can't get this to work in the opposite direction.

mutesolotoggle.zip

[shivermetimbers]

Shiv, Scandor, Environmentalists...

 

Can you confirm some behavior? I'm working on my own version of this and running into something I can't explain...

 

I have the output of a channel strip cabled to a transformer, and the transformer is cabled back to the channel strip (cs). It's a loop. The idea is this: if the cs is muted, turning on solo will cause the track to unmute. Then, the opposite: if the track is solo'd, turning off solo causes the track to mute again.

 

 

Any insights appreciated as to why I can't get this to work in the opposite direction.

 

That sounds like a new piano pedal the Muteso-toggle.

 

Ski,

 

You will experience this same behavior without the transformers in the circuit.

 

 

If an INPUT button were set up to trigger the mute to an ON/OFF state, it would would with the button output as a Fader or as a Control. It can be controlled by anything on the front end of the circuit, but seems to refuse being controlled by the output of the channel strip. However, cloning the channel strip seems to change that situation and then allows it to work.

 

Everything looks the same in numbers, but something changes during this clone process that allows it to work. I don't know what it is.

 

Cloning the strip will allow it to work, but... The master clone will work, but the slave clone won't. Go figure.

 

[ski]

Muteso-toggle

 

 

Cloning the strip will allow it to work, but... The master clone will work, but the slave clone won't. Go figure.

 

Wow, interesting discovery! Thanks for sussing this out.

 

Here's another twist... I found that with a slightly different way of programming things (so that only the turn-the-mute-back-on event (fader9,1) was processed through a Delay Line set for a very short delay), the channel strip would indeed mute when I turned off solo. So it seems that the channel strip doesn't react to a mute-on and solo-off event occurring too closely spaced together. Put a slight delay on there for the mute-on and it works great.

 

Being that the delay line only works while Logic is running, and, since you couldn't A/B anything while Logic isn't running, on the surface it wouldn't seem like a problem to program things this way. And what I'm going for here is a minimum number of environment components that will allow you to just use the solo button on the CS itself when A/B'ing stuff. But it just... bugs me that this Delay Line scheme won't let things work exactly right without Logic running. "There's always a catch", eh?

 

Any additional thoughts/insights appreciated tho!

[shivermetimbers]

Muteso-toggle

 

 

Cloning the strip will allow it to work, but... The master clone will work, but the slave clone won't. Go figure.

 

Wow, interesting discovery! Thanks for sussing this out.

 

Here's another twist... I found that with a slightly different way of programming things (so that only the turn-the-mute-back-on event (fader9,1) was processed through a Delay Line set for a very short delay), the channel strip would indeed mute when I turned off solo. So it seems that the channel strip doesn't react to a mute-on and solo-off event occurring too closely spaced together. Put a slight delay on there for the mute-on and it works great.

 

Being that the delay line only works while Logic is running, and, since you couldn't A/B anything while Logic isn't running, on the surface it wouldn't seem like a problem to program things this way. And what I'm going for here is a minimum number of environment components that will allow you to just use the solo button on the CS itself when A/B'ing stuff. But it just... bugs me that this Delay Line scheme won't let things work exactly right without Logic running. "There's always a catch", eh?

 

Any additional thoughts/insights appreciated tho!

 

The easiest method of A/B would be to use the LEARN function with a controller button as mentioned in a prior post. This is Environment free.

 

The Solo and Mute will toggle. The solo is learned with an on/off command, and the mute is learned with only the Off command.

 

The catch is that the controller has to have the toggle on/off capability (which most do), and that the user doesn't need to bypass plug ins.

 

Once the Environment is needed then almost anything is possible. I have to draw the line when practicality outweighs do-ability. Ya, we can do it, but it's more practical to do it this way...

 

http://cms.colum.edu/florence07/you%20have%20to%20draw%20the%20line%20somewhere%20reduced.jpg

[ski]

I'm not a fan of using the Learn feature because it's not reliable. Still, I hear ya.

[Audiogrocery]

This doesn't work... and that's what I can't explain.

I see Ski. My original idea to toggle the solo & mute buttons of the reference track become some kind of environment inspiration for guys who love to spend time to solve such problems like you and David...

What I see is that you both try to use the mute & solo buttons only with some transform process - the better thing is that the user can use the tip in the track mixer right ?

Well, here is my new challenge....

I'll try to break down the channel strip self loopback protection ( that you have tried ), using environment transformer, IAC port and Controller Assignment dialog.

First of all, I would like to let everybody here, that the new tendency is to use to work with environment, IAC and CA as a new huge Environment area. This will open new doors for making great tips, and breaking down lots of Logic environment limitations like 14-byte parameter messages which are used in some instruments like ES2 etc...

Look at Fig.1 below. I have patched a transformer between the channel strip ( CS ) and the Instrument object which is set to IAC port ( bus 1 ). There are some steps for the learn process:

1/ Create a button and set its output definition to say CC12 range 0-1 as shown, and switch it to ON. We will use this button just for the learn process after that you can delete it !

2/ Open the Controller Assignment ( CA ) and learn the mute of the reference track ( in our example Audio 1 ). So, during learn you will switch OFF the additional button CC12 - this is important. Close CA and try to operate the additional button CC12 to see if the Mute will work. It must not toggle - it has to alternate by one step ( it is also important ). Delete the additional button.

3/ Try to toggle the CS solo - Done...

 

In Fig.2 I show new project, where I my reference track is Audio 10. What I will do is to create new transformer ( with settings shown in Fig.1 ) and IAC bus only. Since the CA assignments are kept in Logic Pref file, I'll open CA and change the channel strip assignment settings (as shown) only.

The method may be useful in some cases when no hardware controller is around ( mobile computers ) etc...

 

 

http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/3487/catip1.gif

Fig.1

 

http://audiogrocery.com/temp/ca_fig2.gif

Fig.2

[shivermetimbers]

Rocket Science

 

http://www.nmlab.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/rs.jpg

 

 

Logic Environment

[ski]

Thanks Scandor! Interesting approach. I'm not knocking it, but ideally I'd still like to see this happen entirely within the Environment with a minimum number of objects and without using the control surface/learn function. It would be the simplest way to work (for me, anyway). But of course, if it's not possible to get a channel strip to respond to mute and solo commands simultaneously than another method must be used.

 

BTW, your "figure 2" is missing.

[shivermetimbers]

 

BTW, your "figure 2" is missing.

 

It's always been there on my comp screen, sometimes they don't show up like the avatars.

 

Ski,

 

New idea. What about SYSEX (not sex) to do some of these things?

 

"...Note: SysEx faders can actually be used for any kind of MIDI event, making them handy

for sending ordered batches of messages, such as mixer or control panel snapshots—

with one click of the mouse."

 

 

 

Oh the possibilities... Quick, someone tell me this won't work before I get a boner.

[ski]

Calm down you randy devil!

 

Snapshots are totally possible. I could make a snapshot thingee pretty quickly (no sysex required). The problem remains (for me, anyway) that a channel strip won''t respond to closely-spaced mute-on and solo-off events.

 

But if you want a snapshot for a bunch of faders (independent of what we're discussing here) the be prepared for an increased bloodflow to your nether regions, cuz I could whip that up (no pun intended) pretty quickly. (Still, this should be a topic for another post, unless you can describe a way to make that work for our solo-reference-track scenario). I'll all, um, "ears".

Edited June 23, 2009 by ski

[shivermetimbers]

Oh, almost forgot.

 

THe OUTPUT channel strip inserts can be easily bypassed (in a sense) by using the NEXT/PREVIOUS key commands.

 

Set one Preset on the OUTPUT channel with no inserts and 'Save As' a reference insert (Previous), then use the FX you want on the OUTPUT channel and do another 'Save As' for the Output FX (Next). A click of the 'N' key will be for the FX, the 'P' key will bring up the bypass strip. No environment or CA.

[shivermetimbers]

Calm down you randy devil!

 

Snapshots are totally possible. I could make a snapshot thingee pretty quickly. The problem remains (for me, anyway) that a channel strip won''t respond to closely-spaced mute-on and solo-off events.

 

But if you want a snapshot for a bunch of faders (independent of what we're discussing here) the be prepared for an increased bloodflow to your nether regions, cuz I could whip that up (no pun intended) pretty quickly. (Still, this should be a topic for another post, unless you can describe a way to make that work for our solo-reference-track scenario). I'll all, um, "ears".

 

Well, wouldn't a snapshot of the SOLO REFERENCE state and a snapshot of the MUTE REFERENCE state work? Or is only total of one snapshot allowed?

 

 

 

If you are going to use the Environment, then the cloning and a xformer is still about the 2nd quickest ( the Learn Solo and 1/2 mute is the quickest).

[ski]

Doing snapshots is easy except that it requires an awful lot of cabling, and the whole thing would break very easily if you add new tracks.

 

I don't have Logic open at the moment, but if you could test something out then I can figure out the programming in my head as to whether or not it's possible to do a simple snapshot thing:

 

Let's say you have some tracks which have sends feeding FX hosted in various Auxes. Then create a new Aux on its own. If you solo that Aux, will it effectively silence all tracks and existing FX? If so, making a snapshot thing will be a piece of cake.

 

Same thing with a Bus object. Same scenario as above, but instead of creating a new Aux, create a Bus object. Solo it while the track is running with FX doing their thing. Does soloing the Bus object effectively silence the entire track and FX?

 

Lemme know!

[Audiogrocery]

But of course, if it's not possible to get a channel strip to respond to mute and solo commands simultaneously than another method must be used.

Right, the CS is well loopback protected, so even tricks with sysex snapshots or what else will not break down this CS behavior. I just think of the Shiv's method with pre, next kc, so will try later.

P.S I can see my Fig.2 though I'm having very poor 3G mobile Internet connection in my mountain villa right now... ?

[shivermetimbers]

Doing snapshots is easy ...blah, blah. blah... Lemme know!

 

I am not sure if we are thinking about the same thing.

 

 

 

http://www.thecinemasource.com/moviesdb/images/Charlize_Theron-1.jpg

 

 

What I had in mind was this:

 

Whatever the state of the Logic mixer is in at the time will get recorded as a sysex.

 

I.E. whatever the faders, pans, bus sends, FX settings, etc... all gets recorded as a snapshot.

 

This snapshot is then stored and reloaded when necessary. All the values are there, it will be a matter of collecting and storing them.

 

Channels strips can be saved and reloaded (as in the Next/Prev example), but only one track at a time.

 

There must be a way to do this... there must! There Must be a way ....

 

http://trainingfortraders.com/Blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/Sherlock%20Holmes%202.jpg

[ski]

Think... think... think...

 

It's as I said before somewhere (maybe it was this thread)... You could conceivably record snapshots (as many as you want) for upwards of 126 different channels, including pan, sends, mute and solo status, and level of course. No sysex need be involved. Creating the actual "memory" for this kind of thing is easy, but the difficulty comes in having to run two cables to each channel strip, meaning that if you have lots of audio, instrument and aux channels that it would become a tedious cabling nightmare. Do-able, but tedious work.

 

And if you work using automatic channel strip management, creating channels on the fly, the whole thing goes bust.

 

The only way to make it work (and it would work well, I think) is to commit to the number of channel strips ahead of time (like you'd do with a template). Automatic channel management would have to be off and never be turned back on.

 

So if you want snapshots, I can make a simple example of how to do snapshots. But one thing that still won't work is the recall of mute and solo on any single channel in the event Snapshot #1 calls for the channel to be solo'd, and Snapshot #2 calls for it to be muted. If I can find a workaround for this then all bets are off and I'll post a snapshot system which I'll leave for you guys to expand upon.

[shivermetimbers]

Think... think... think...

 

It's as I said before... blah blah blah

 

 

But, but, but....

 

Here is the start of the sysex idea...

 

One button programed for multiple commands (Insert bypass) per channel strip.

Another button programmed for mute Solo toggle.

 

Click on the MASTER switch.

 

Both buttons controlled by one master button. No messy cabling.

 

Once the concept is understood, this method is even faster to set up than anything I have come up with b4.

 

I think this is the beginning of the concept I am thinking of. Right now, I can program the sysex messages. Eventually I should be be to set any/all parameters and do a capture with a KC.

 

If it makes sense to you, and you see the possibilities, then it will be a step closer to DP's snapshot function.

Ref_Sysex.logic.zip

[ski]

Hey Shiv,

 

You've solved the problem of getting the mute/solo toggling thing to happen. Kudos! Methinks your setup is all that's necessary to get the solo-reference-track to happen. AFAIC, problem solved and with very little (though clever) programming required! Good deal using CC's instead of fader events. Who knew?!?

 

8) 8) 8)

 

I think this is the beginning of the concept I am thinking of. Right now, I can program the sysex messages. Eventually I should be be to set any/all parameters and do a capture with a KC.

 

Which KC? Not sure what you're getting at here -- how would you capture the settings of each audio channel and cause that to program your sysex thingees?

[Audiogrocery]

I.E. whatever the faders, pans, bus sends, FX settings, etc... all gets recorded as a snapshot.

Definitely!

I did such experiments long time ago during L5 so I could created channel strip header consoles which can control CS objects inc. all parameters you

say.

The snap shot automation can be controlled via Program changes, CC#, Key switching etc... Let's say that you can send 1200 parameters per key switch...

I is no idea - it is complete Environment working project designed in small macro tool.

It was designed as template using some additional ID transformers per track cause some specific CS ch. behavior.

As Ski focused, the new dynamic CS process is a problem for the templates so I just wonder if my tool is still usable... ?