seattlecal Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 Sorry David and Ski if this is the incorrect forum for this question but I just have a quick question that any guitar player could answer. My mom bought me an accoustic guitar to learn along with the piano I've been learning and the guitar comes with a dvd. He's started us out with just a few chords and the first one is the G chord. My question to any guitarist is does this chord take ages to do. Everytime I line up my fingers with ring finger on the 6th string behind the third fret than the middle finger behind the 2nd fret on the 5th string and finally the pinkie finger behind the 3rd fret on the first string. I'm finding this impossible to do as I always come down on the 5th fret with my ring finger of course taking the tone away from the 5th string. Does this just take weeks and weeks to get? I feel like I can't stretch any further and I questioned someone if my hands were to small and they said no. I guess I'm just hoping to get some positive reinforcement that it will indeed happen. I'm not sure how as it just seems impossible. Just wondered if it seemed impossible at first to you guitarists out there. thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shivermetimbers Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 Sorry David and Ski if this is the incorrect forum for this question but I just have a quick question that any guitar player could answer. My mom bought me an accoustic guitar to learn along with the piano I've been learning and the guitar comes with a dvd. He's started us out with just a few chords and the first one is the G chord. My question to any guitarist is does this chord take ages to do. Everytime I line up my fingers with ring finger on the 6th string behind the third fret than the middle finger behind the 2nd fret on the 5th string and finally the pinkie finger behind the 3rd fret on the first string. I'm finding this impossible to do as I always come down on the 5th fret with my ring finger of course taking the tone away from the 5th string. Does this just take weeks and weeks to get? I feel like I can't stretch any further and I questioned someone if my hands were to small and they said no. I guess I'm just hoping to get some positive reinforcement that it will indeed happen. I'm not sure how as it just seems impossible. Just wondered if it seemed impossible at first to you guitarists out there. thanks http://guitarsecrets.com/pictures/G2.jpg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sayenex Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 Yeah buddy, it takes a while. I teach guitar and I think it's one of the hardest instruments to get into starting out, but it just gets easier from there. when I first started it took me months to play the simplest stuff, keep at it! Evan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seattlecal Posted July 1, 2009 Author Share Posted July 1, 2009 Thanks Evan that's very encouraging to hear. I've been sitting here just wishing my fingers were longer. I'm 6'5" and have the hands of a much shorter person. My dad is 5'10" and his are slightly bigger than mine. I will keep at it as I'm very motivated to learn the instrument just needed to hear exactly what you said. Thanks very much! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muses Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 When I started out, I thought I'd never be able to play a first position F chord, let alone a Bb ... now, it's like breathing. It takes some time, but when you get it, you get it. Keep going and you'll be surprised how quickly you'll get it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seattlecal Posted July 1, 2009 Author Share Posted July 1, 2009 thanks muses, I bought a chromatic tuner about a week and a half ago and the guy said you'll be playing by the end of the week. Maybe some but certainly not me and I feel very good hearing that it becomes basically second nature to play these chords after a while. Thanks again! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seattlecal Posted July 1, 2009 Author Share Posted July 1, 2009 this may be a very stupid question but I am currently just practicing the G, C and D chords over and over and I have been strumming with my thumb. Is it going to become neccesary to use a pick. I'm imagining so because while recording into a mic you'll probably need as much volume as you can get but don't really know. You can tell I'm a certain beginner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shivermetimbers Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 this may be a very stupid question but I am currently just practicing the G, C and D chords over and over and I have been strumming with my thumb. Is it going to become neccesary to use a pick. I'm imagining so because while recording into a mic you'll probably need as much volume as you can get but don't really know. You can tell I'm a certain beginner. This guy has no need for a pick... When you feel like giving up and you think you'll never get it. Watch this... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seattlecal Posted July 4, 2009 Author Share Posted July 4, 2009 shivermetimbers thanks so much for the picture. That is a way easier way to play the chord. So you use your middle finger ring finger and index finger. I played it this way and had not issue with my middle finger falling back on the fifth string. Do you have any idea why the dvd I'm watching is teaching me to use my ring finger middle finger and pinky. I have yet to figure out how to play the chord this way. I hadn't even noticed the difference til I took a stronger look at it and noticed he's using different fingers and I immediately tried it and it was perfect. Any clue on why the dvd I got is trying to teach the way I spoke of. I'm totally thinking I may have not had hands long enough to play his way cause I've been practicing it for a couple weeks with frustrating results. Thanks for the picture it helped tremendously Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seattlecal Posted July 4, 2009 Author Share Posted July 4, 2009 Now I'm very confused I just looked online at how people play the G chord and they all play it the way the guy says on the dvd. I find this way practically impossible and the picture above makes way more sense and is easily done. But now I think I've gotta keep frustrating myself to make sure I learn it the right way but after two weeks I don't know if I've ever been able not fall back on the fifth chord. The picture above is so simple one time and it works whereas I've yet to get this way to work at all. Totally frustrated as the picture above makes more sense to me but every place I checked played the same as the dvd. plenty confused Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muses Posted July 4, 2009 Share Posted July 4, 2009 I started playing the G chord the way it's shown in Shiv's picture. Eventually, I added the last finger. The reason it's predominantly shown played the four-finger way (I assume) is that it sounds a little less muddy playing it this way, because your ring finger stops the B string at the third fret (playing a D) which just has a slightly smoother ring to it. There is no right or wrong. Just get yourself playing guitar. Once you loosen up with it, you'll see how easily those other chord variations will come to you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seattlecal Posted July 4, 2009 Author Share Posted July 4, 2009 thanks muse and I hadn't noticed the ring finger on the third fret but I certainly notice the ring finger in the 4 finger way stopping the second string being played of course by the middle finger and when I check that string it of course gives no sound. For me it seemed easier the way you said you learned it but as you said most people teach with the 4 finger. So I've just been trying to master the g, c, and d chords before moving on with this dvd. Would you suggest just moving forward as I can tell you two weeks of trying to master just three chords becomes quite boring but then again I'm so afraid I'm gonna move on and be totally unready for what comes. But you just suggest to keep on keep keeping on and move forward even if I haven't got these down yet. Thanks so much for your help Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seattlecal Posted July 5, 2009 Author Share Posted July 5, 2009 sort off the topic sorry but my mom currently went to a fair and bought me a huntington which I'm learning on. Anyone familiar with these? I went on the web and certainly didn't see what I wanted on some of the things people were saying. I was hoping that I'd be able to learn and when at the point record with this guitar but I suppose I'm being naive. I've kind of got a mapped out plan through the next year how I was going to get all the stuff throughout for my home studio. If I've got to get another guitar it's just another added expense and of course worth it I would never want to compromise on sound. Just curious if people still use their beginner guitars for projects now. thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otispondscum Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 Here's my two cents: Sometimes "beginner" guitars actually have a good sound. Unfortunately, it can be a sort of dice-roll as to what you're gonna get due to low QA. That aside, I don't think you should worry too much about what guitar you have until you've had enough guitar-playing experience to identify what sound you're going for. It's something that you'll get a feel for rather quickly as you progress. Until that point, your Huntington is a good tool for you to use in learning the fundamentals of guitar playing. As far as chord positioning goes with the left hand. I think it's good to experiment with left-hand thumb position on the neck and the angle of the wrist. Sometimes, when chording or fingering on the low-E and A strings, I find it easier to pull my thumb down a little on back of the neck of the guitar and push my wrist out a bit at a forward angle. This allows your fretting hand fingers to have more "arc" thus decreasing the likelihood of accidently muting adjacent strings. Flexible left wrist and thumb placement is key in comfortably voicing chords. Also the angle of your fingertips in relation to how they come down on the fretboard plays a roll here as well. In my experience, the more perpendicular you can comfortably make that angle, usually the cleaner you can voice the chord. Finally, in my opinion there is value in using both your fingers and a pick. Although to the uninitiated the mechanics of pick-technique can seem a bit intimidating, in practice the concept is pretty simple. In the end, you're just striking something against the strings to make it vibrate. In my opinion, fingertips produce a different sound than picks, so it's good idea to get familiar with both. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seattlecal Posted July 13, 2009 Author Share Posted July 13, 2009 Thansk so much. I have been practicing with the pick for the reason of when recording I probably need to make significant sound for the mic to pick it up well. I think. I appreciate all your thoughts and will try to incorporate these into my playing as I'm still stuck 3 weeks later trying to play tom dooley which is simply strumming the g and d chords several times. Been a tad bit frustrating to say the least. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkgross Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 no pick needed here either Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robinloops Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 As far as the chord goes... using the fourth finger (pinky) is it frees the third finger (ring) up to come down on the second string at the third fret. This adds a D to the chord and as previously mention has a slightly different sound. One of the things this allows a player to do (eventually) is to voice the chords differently. This can remove a lot of monotony from a rhythm guitar part. Also is used in a more advanced technique to voice melodies while playing chords. But that is a long way off. RIght now you just want to focus on learning to play and change chords smoothly. Those things will come later. As you are learning the guitar you may want to try to learn more advanced positions (as in the fingering for the chord that you are having trouble with). this will keep you from having to learn and train yourself to make the chord with a different fingering once you DO need to bring down the third finger to play the D on the second string. Also, by learning this fingering from the beginning you will be training your fourth finger while you train the rest of them. A lot of beginning players learn simpler three finger chords to the detriment of developing dexterity of the fourth finger. I broke my third finger and had to play the guitar for a time using only first-second-forth fingers. This was the single most helpful thing that ever happened to me as a guitar player. So I say DEVELOP THAT LITTLE FINGER right from the start! And think if it like this. If you played basketball you wouldn't practice only shooting til you got that down. You'd also exercise your legs and lungs etc. Also remember it is easier to learn good technique than it is to UNlearn bad technique. Which brings me to a possible cause for your problem. Posture is an essential (and often overlooked) element to good playing. Not only does it allow for the correct positions of the fingers (effectively making them seem LONGER and stronger) but it will also help you avoid strain and even medical issues that can result from bad technique. So check these things... FIRST- Is the guitar facing the ceiling (or at like a 45 degree angle)? -this is a typical problem for beginners because they tend to do it to see the hands. Move your head forward to see the strings rather than rotating the guitar. The guitar should be held at a slight (only) angle or even parallel to the body (more for electrics with a strap). A good general rule of thumb here is to point the guitar as if you were pointing it at an audience (as opposed to the ceiling on the other side of the room). How is your posture? To play an instrument effectively one must not be slouched over into a lump. Try sitting up straight (I know I sound like your mom here but this is EXTREMELY important) Next- (and this is determined a lot by the two things I just mentioned) Are your fingers coming down at enough of an angle to the strings? In theory the last joint of the fingers should be more or less perpendicular to the strings. A common begginer problem is pressing the strings at about a 45 degree angle, effectively pressing the string sideways rather than down. this will cause extra strain on the hands and cause fingers to touch adjacent strings (which is I believe may be the cause of your problem) Also a common problem with beginners is pressing the strings too hard. This causes tension in the hands and makes moving other fingers more difficult. Try squeezing a ball tightly with two fingers and check the mobility (or immobility) of the other fingers... And finally a tip for comfort and safety as well as ergonomic design of the hands... the fingers have most of there strength (all parts of body as well) when there is not extreme bending at any of the joints. A lot of beginners hold the hands with the wrist at almost a 90 degree angle. This IS VERY BAD! It can cause fatigue and difficulty pressing the strings and even eventually carpel tunnel syndrome. As a general rule of thumb you want the hand to be smoothly curved (rounded) from the wrist to the tips of the fingers. Hold out an imaginary tennis ball with your left hand with the wrist SLIGHTLY bent. This is more or less the curvature you want to hold your when you are playing. To test this theory, try squeezing a soft ball in the hand. Now bend your wrist to a sharp angle and try to squeeze it again. It's much more difficult isn't it? About beginner's guitars. It is a fallacy that a beginner should learn on a crappy guitar and then once you learn the basics to move up to a better quality instrument. While there are some great student models out there most are hunks of wood with strings attached. No one would assume that is was best to learn to drive on a 57 chevy that is difficult for even experienced drivers to operate. Anyone knows that it would be easier to learn on a newer car that shifts easily. One advantage to learning on a 57 chevy would be that once you did EVENTUALLY learn to shift the gears you could drive ANYTHING. Cheap guitars are much harder to play and even more difficult to get nice sounds from. ESPECIALLY for a beginner. Remember you aren't just learning to make movements with the fingers, but rather to make music. Start on a crappy enough guitar and you won't even begin to be able to work on TONE and musical quality until you have moved up to another guitar. I can't stress enough how important a quality instrument is to the facilitation of learning to play it. A rock climber doesn't learn to rock climb in tennis shoes and then move up to climbing shoes once he learns. A painter doesn't start out with crayons (although you might give these to a kid to see if they like art in general), a rafter doesn't start on a plywood raft, I could go on and on with analogies due to the fact that we usually only have this retarded fallacy with music. Ultimately, I think that this boils down to the lack of respect that the pursuit of musical knowledge carries in modern society. Society has almost a contempt for the lazy bastards that just want to spend their lives PLAYING (bad choice of word for what we do IMHO) and not contribute anything important (I'm sure a lot of us have parents that would reinforce that statement). (Sorry for the rant) so why the hell should we give the kid a good instrument. He's probably won't pursue it anyway. Well maybe it's cause the crappy guitar he got to learn on hurts his hands, sounds like crap (no matter who plays it), and he gets tired of beating his head against the wall... (getting off topic... Sorry for the rant). I want to learn piano so I think I'll pick myself up a 2 octave casio (wait... I'm doing it again ) All that said it is important to develop a feel for what you want to play before investing a lot of money on a guitar. Rentals are a good compromise for this. A medium quality acoustic is also a good way to go as it will be something to keep in your arsenal regardless of the direction you go. Also a decent quality guitar often retains value and so you can sell it once you move up to something more specific to your tastes. Also cheap crappy guitars ARE capable of making nice sounds. And sometimes great even for recording depending on what you are after, but almost never are they easy to play or control the tone with. Another guitarist that doesn't use a pick (at all as far as I know) is Mark Knofler. Finger styling is fine if that is what you are most comfortable with. You actually have a lot more control over the tone than you do with a pick (I am biased in this sense as I learned guitar by studying classical technique). Using a pick is not necessarily louder but it can be a bit brighter tone (especially if you do not have strong finger nails) and while it's a bit easier to do continuous fast picking with the fingers as opposed to a pick, it can be quite difficult to match the speed of short double picking bursts with pick (in my case anyway). Also picks have nothing to do with recording but rather are a stylistic choice depending on the individual style of the guitarist. I prefer to use both techniques depending on what I am playing and what tone I want to get out of it. If you are recording finger style and it is a bit quiet, then turn up the gain or move a bit closer to the microphone. If this doesn't work you need a better microphone not a pick. As muses stated there is no right or wrong. Just what works for you. The only thing advice can do for you is give you an idea what works for most and what is ergonomically efficient, etc. This is not to say that other ways are not effective. I knew a guy that played the guitar laid in his lap (like a steel guitar posture but regular style). He was amazing! I knew another guy that had the worst technique I have ever seen. EVER! But this guy was capable of making the most amazing sounds come from it. We could never figure out how he was able to even play the thing much less make beautiful music with it. I mean he could shred! I do recommend that you try to learn correct technique and tried and true methods as a starting point, then find variations that may work better for you... And finally... I think you may be over thinking things just a bit (not necessarily a bad thing if you don't get caught in a loop). And if you have only been playing for three weeks and are worried that you can't play yet, I'd say you're being a little hard on yourself. I mean damn, if after only three weeks you're even able to make some chords, you're doing fine! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seattlecal Posted July 13, 2009 Author Share Posted July 13, 2009 Thanks Robinloops, I have been practicing using my 4 finger as almost everyone on the web teaching it suggested so. It's funny you say you want to learn a piano on a casio (as an example of course) because for a little over a month that is precisely what I've been learning on. Sounds pretty crappy and look forward to getting my midi keyboard. I'm certainly coming down on the 5 string and maybe even the 3 string when playing the g chord. It feels as if I have to go at a 45 degree angle or I wouldn't be able to reach with my fourth. Thanks so much for your extensive help I really appreciate it. You're right it's only been 3 weeks or so I just get so impatient and it's quite boring sometimes practicing the same two chords and not having much success yet. The guy teaching on my dvd says it usually takes 6-8 weeks so don't get discouraged. Sounds like I should take his and your advice. Thanks again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robinloops Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 (edited) WOW... glad there isn't a limit on post size... What are the forum guidelines for long-windedness? One point I feel I need to clarify after reading my post... My parents (especially my father) were always VERY supportive of me and my musical pursuits and the reference to parents hounding their kids about music was more about my friend's parents than mine... (apologies to my father for not being clear on that in my previous post, no disrespect intended, simply an oversight) Also I rambled on so long I forgot one really useful piece of advice, so here goes... (taking a deep breath) You want to use guide fingers. You can look this up on the net and you will find some in depth explanations. Basically what it is is like 'walking' the fingers around the fretboard rather than moving them all at once. (this may seem silly but bear with me the purpose is to see how the fingers work together) To start try this exercise. Make a vulcan greeting (make a V with the fingers grouping first tow and last two together) now keeping them in pairs walk them across your desk like a little bipedal creature. Now walking around the desk as a four legged creature (all fingers independent of each other). Okay, now that you've seen how much easier it is to move them in groups try this one. Try hoping as opposed to walking (all fingers leaving table at same time with none left down). Now experiment with the difference between 'walking with a two legged creature and hoping with a four legged creature. Try each method but with the final result of the fingers in specific points of the desk (you can even draw some dots on a piece of paper). Ok, now that we've seen how much easier it is to walk in pairs than jump, we want to apply this to the guitar... Using guide fingers to walk around the fretboard. When you change from a C Maj to G Maj(for example) put the fourth finger (pinky) down on the G note of the G Maj chord you are changing to (third fret on the first string) BEFORE lifting any of the other fingers. Now 'walk' the first and second finger TOGETHER (as if it were one leg) to the 5th and 6th string (2nd and 3rd frets) for the rest of the G Maj chord. Now we see the biggest benefit to using the 4th finger for the G Maj chord. AAAAAAhhhhh. You also need to experiment with the alignment of the 1st and 2nd finger when holding them together as one appendage ('leg'). They should be slightly offset as they will be when placed on the fingerboard of the guitar. Now that you have the basic concept some tips to applying it in the real world... first don't take walking to literally. The reality is that the movements should ultimately be one smooth movement executed simultaneously. And really in practice you have begun the movement of the other fingers before the first ones even touch the fingerboard. It's more about a 'concept' of walking than actually moving fingers while others stay down. A type of 'mind training' to trick ourselves into 'thinking' we are using the fingers as they evolved to be used, IN GROUPS. There are some good resources and better explanations of this technique on the net. There are resources that will tell you what fingers to use as the guide finger(s) when changing from a particular chord to another (like the C to G example i gave, but for any and all chords) Look up (adding 'guitar technique' or whatever to each) guide fingers (main thing here) - finger walking - spider exercise for the guitar - spider walking exercise - and finger independence (a broader theme which guide fingers can help accomplish) Hope this helps... And thank you, for the quick response and gratitude... Edited July 13, 2009 by robinloops Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seattlecal Posted July 13, 2009 Author Share Posted July 13, 2009 I'm sure they accept your apology. I realized I didn't say anything about moving from chord to chord. You're absolutely right about working on that right now cause I move very slowly from one to the other because I'm constantly trying to get my fingers right. And this 90 degree angle thing is gonna be tough for me as I mentioned I've been doing 45 degree angle and it's still so hard for me. But you're right cause I'm coming down on the strings below. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robinloops Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 (edited) try not to focus too much on perfecting one aspect of technique (perfect finger position for example) at the expense of other aspects (quick smoother transitions for example) because often times they are the means to accomplishing the other. Meaning (in this example) when you can place your fingers more readily from one chord to another they will naturally fall into better positions. Likewise when you place the fingers correctly it makes it easier to accomplish smoother chord transitions. So you see you must practice both these things because they are actually one and the same. Along those lines of thinking... The number one greatest resource I ever have used for making chords and developing the skills necessary was Diatonic Major and Minor Scales by Andres Segovia But it isn't even a chord book you say... But it is. Scales and chords are the same things basically. A chord is simply a selection of notes from a scale grouped together with a particular relationship to position in the scale (root-3rd-5th for example). A scale in it's entirety is a chord with a first-second-third-fourth-fifth-etc. But how do you use a scale book to practice chords? This is where Andres Segovia's magic comes into play... First: YOU MUST OBEY THE FINGERINGS! (sorry for the caps mods, I'll change it if you want me to) Second: In order to get the benefit of developing ability to make chords you MUST leave your fingers PLANTED. NEVER move a finger until it is needed in a different position. In essence what you are doing is making a variety of chords made up of all different notes on the scale. This helps develop finger independence chords of any structure. But this was developed for classical technique? Although Andres Segovia developed these fingerings to be used in classical music (layman's terminology not referring to the classical 'period' but rather style) for the development of the ability (more or less) to play chords (from a scale) while simultaneously playing a melody (with notes of the scale), [exhale... another deep breath] it is an easy technique to study, yet develops very advanced skills that when applied to simpler chord forms (and scales etc.) has even a greater benefit than when applied to classical technique. But it's only nine pages long? (i think it's nine- I haven't used mine in ages ) It's all you need. Short and sweet. Will develop finger independence and dexterity needed to make everything else you try to learn a matter of getting the intellectual knowledge (as opposed to being a physical challenge as well). not to mention the scales you will learn too (an nice bonus for a workout book). Anyway speaking of playing the guitar I really should be playing mine and working on some projects. I haven't practiced much the last couple of weeks. Hard to fire up the guitar when the future is uncertain. ROTFL - CIBTC NOTE: I am in no way affiliated with the aforementioned "Diatonic Major and Minor Scales by Andres Segovia" but it did change my life so i feel inclined to spread the good word of the great Andres Segovia Edited July 13, 2009 by robinloops Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seattlecal Posted July 13, 2009 Author Share Posted July 13, 2009 Thanks again Robinloops, I appreciate you taking the time to guide me through this sometimes or often monotonous practice. I will not quit as I am very headstrong on learning this instrument and have been told by many that when you start getting it you really start getting it. i'm looking forward to that. Thanks again I will follow that advice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otispondscum Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 I agree with a lot of what robinloops said, especially that part where we both coincided about fretting hand placement. The one thing we have to consider about "crappy beginner" guitars is that these days it's not that hard to get a "crappy beginner" guitar that's actually decent for the beginner if you spend a little time looking. I have the Guitar Center former employee perspective.. Not everyone can afford or at least justify a great guitar off the bat for an absolute beginner. While you don't want to give a beginning driver a '57 Chevy or whatever, at the same time it's highly unlikely that you'd want to give a first time driver a brand new Lexus either. This is not to say that there aren't decent guitars for reasonable prices for the beginner, I just believe that it's not as necessary at the start. Robinloops does have a certain point though: If the beginning player cannot recognize whether his limitations in playing are due to his own inexperience or the limitations of the guitar itself... then there's a bit of trouble. Just one more aside: Playing with a pick definitely facilitates playing louder. It's takes more energy to match that volume with fingerpicking. Pick users are usually faster as well unless you have very nimble right hand alternating rest/free strokes (good flamenco players for instance.) Also, if you ever decide to venture into electric guitar territory with overdrive/distortion, a pick can often grant greater control over the sound than fingers. Mark Knopfler is great, however he had a relatively clean tone in comparison to a lot of modern guitarist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robinloops Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 But then they aren't crappy beginners guitars are they? When I mentioned crappy, I literally meant crappy. Which is what a lot of people feel is adequate for a beginner. I totally agree that you can get some pretty decent entry level instruments these days. There are tons of good entry level instruments available. In fact often with a little bit of custom work they can be made quite nice. Often times the final setup of the guitar is one element that is really thrown together. Thing to look for is a good consistent neck with a decent fret job. Even a hunk of wood can be played really well and made to sound good if it has a decent fretboard. A lot of places (don't know about guitar center) will setup even their cheap guitars in house and this is where looking around can really land you a good deal. But even if what you have is a flea-market piece of junk a little bit of research (a lot of resources on the net) and a few hours labour can sometimes make a diamond from coal. I had one guitar growing up that played like crap til the headstock broke off and when repaired the nut was just a hair lower and to this day it was one of the best playing guitars I have owned. I totally agree that a pick is probably the best choice for most modern rock styles (definitely for speed metal ) but I wouldn't say that a pick gives you more control of an overdriven sound than the fingers. While, it does give you a bit more crunch with a distorted tone and you can 'drive' the distortion better with the higher volume (this can also be accomplished with a compressor or gain boost pedal between the guitar and distortion), it doesn't have as many tonal subtleties that the fingers do. With the fingers you can ride right in between the line where the guitar starts to break up and distort and for just a bit of expression you can push it right over the top and make it scream. Mark does this quite a bit. And while this can be done with a pick as well, not with the same precision and subtlety that (multiple) finger(s) can. This is why his playing is so expressive. I have never been able to get the same amount of expressiveness with Brothers In Arms with a pick as without. Nowhere near... I personally use a pick 98.7% of the time, but the tradeoff for more volume and more control over the power (and the squeal), speed and accuracy, and general harder edge crunch of the pick is lesser control over the tone and sound. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otispondscum Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 Interesting points. I must admit, I haven't really used my fingers much in high-gain applications so I guess I'm being a bit assumptive. Also, you are correct about the pick in terms of control over tone. I guess I was referring more towards the "speed metal" styles. In that context, generally a more uniform attack is preferred which using a pick helps... for the very same reasons you described. There are other certain things that are difficult for me to achieve with my right hand without a pick. Percussive palm muting sounds (ala McLaughlin, Dimeola) are near impossible for me to execute without a pick. Also, I tend to utilize artificial harmonics activated with my right thumb and pick (the "squeal")... not necessarily in the cheesy late-80's hair-metal way, but in a textural way. However this type of technique obviously is a bit too the left and is not a necessary one by any means. I guess I'm just too much of a shredder at heart... a horrible residual byproduct of the musical environment I was unfortunately raised in. This is something that I've been gradually getting over in my journey towards becoming a normal musician... but it's easy to fall off the wagon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seattlecal Posted July 14, 2009 Author Share Posted July 14, 2009 Is this Andres Segovia in the music stores. My mom bought me a huntington that was supposedly priced at 200 but she got it for 80 supposedly directly from the makers of the guitar. Since I really don't have anything to relate it too although I did pick up a friends that he got for 200 from his teacher who picks several up in mexico and brings them back and right off the bat the (I'm gonna sound stupid here) the fret board I think it's called seemed stronger and just better built but it may not have been at all. I like my guitar but as you guys have said if I'm not learning what a real guitar or good guitar sounds like I'm going to be in shock when I hear the notes I'm playing on this one with notes from a good one. I just really have no way of knowind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seattlecal Posted July 14, 2009 Author Share Posted July 14, 2009 by the way I love mark knopfler. He did the princess bride soundtrack. I've got guide my sword off of i-tunes. beautiful stuff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otispondscum Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 You only think I guessed wrong! That's what's so funny! I switched glasses when your back was turned! Ha ha! You fool! You fell victim to one of the classic blunders! The most famous is never get involved in a land war in Asia, but only slightly less well-known is this: never go in against a Sicilian when death is on the line! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Ha ha ha... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robinloops Posted July 14, 2009 Share Posted July 14, 2009 Yes, but you weren't counting on me putting poison in both of them did you? Well partly what I was getting at is that a pick 'does' give you more control over certain elements of the sound (particularly those that one might want to put in rock music, like the 'squeal'... I just LOVE the 'squeal') You also mentioned one benefit to a pick I meant to mention and that's the uniformity you can get with it. seattlecal: Yes Andres is in music stores. He was one of (if not the greatest) masters of the classical guitar (IMO). He contributed greatly to the development of modern classical guitar technique and showcased the guitar as a respectable instrument (in the very closed world of classical music) throughout the world. Ringo Star actually once referred to him as "The daddy of us (guitarists) all". Andres' response was, "Why, they're not even my illegitimate children (referring to rock guitarists). How wrong he was though. He popularized the guitar, developed it's technique and help pave the way for it to become one of the most popular instruments of all time. His music is classical but well worth a listen even if you aren't much of a classical music fan. i recommend some of the music he plays from the romantic period if this is the case particularly the spanish composers of the time. This stuff has a more upbeat feel almost anyone can appreciate. If you are a fan of classical music then check out some of Andres' transcriptions of Bach's music for the guitar. The Chiconne is one of his great masterpeices (originally composed for the violin) and Bach's Cello suite en D minor (i think that's the one). As far as getting the diatonic Major and minor scales book(let) I spoke about, you can get it pretty much anywhere on the internet and most stores that have any classical guitar method or resources. It's the one with a purple cover and costs about $6.00. here he is quite old and many say he got a bit sloppy in his old age. But his interpretation and passion were at their peak even if his technical ability suffered a bit. this one is nice. i think the recording is newer than the picture and this version was done sometime in his late sixties or seventies. I'd have to find the cd (i have this version on) and I haven't seen them in years... And about one's guitar... If your guitar sounds good to you, and is not really difficult to play (high strings etc), then it's probably a pretty decent guitar for you. You will know when it isn't enough guitar. To clarify, when referring to cheap crappy student models I am referring the common misconception that ANY instrument will do for a beginner and that any old piece of junk is fine to start off on. If it's a well made guitar that has decent action on the strings and a good fretboard (you can look down the fretboard from one end and see if the frets are consistent) then I certainly wouldn't call it a crappy student guitar. As has been talked about here, there are very fine student guitars out there. Even Martin (one of the finest acoustic guitar makers, imho) makes a student model I would love to have but the thing, while cheaper than other martins is still out of my budget. The quality of a guitar is also not defined by it's price tag but rather the craftsmanship that goes into it. And again there are many well crafted budget guitars available. For one who doesn't know how to judge the quality of their instrument, I would simply advise this... How does it feel? Does it feel good? Is it easy enough to press the strings down? Is there no fret buzz at any of the frets (refering to isolated buzzing at uneven frets and not applicable when the buzz is due to the player/user error (but often even then it is that the guitar is so hard to play)? Does it make musical sounds? Do notes sustain for at least a moderate amount of time? Is it easy to tune and does it stay in tune relatively well? And most importantly, Do you like it? If the answer is yes to most of these then it is probably a perfectly acceptable guitar. A guitar is a lot like a girlfriend. No one can tell you who the right girl for you is, but you do want to stay away from total skanks. As far as tastes and colors goes there is nothing written. And it isn't until you are spending a big chunk of cash on a fine guitar (which I don't recommend for beginners that aren't made of money) that you need to worry about the quality of the individual piece of wood chosen, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seattlecal Posted July 14, 2009 Author Share Posted July 14, 2009 stop rhyming I mean it, anybody want a peanut? Oh, that's good stuff my friends a truly classic movie one of my all time favs. As far as my guitar it certainly still hums after I'm done and I'm sure this has all with me not knowing how to strum just yet. I told you I had seen my friend today and he handed me his guitar and I strummed once and he immediately said too hard. It's interesting he's been playing for about ten years off and on but more off and his teacher has been playing for over 30 years apparently always on. What I'm meaning to say though is my friend has a great pick a thick one that is strong compared to the skinny pick they gave me with the guitar. He actually flips the pick around and strums with the opposite side. I found this interesting. I'm looking at my frets and they appear to be lined up correctly and as far as good sounds happening, I wouldn't know what it's supposed to sound like or even if it sounds good but that is where my dvd comes into play. I have a chromatic tuner and it seems to stay in tune all day as I pick it up practice ten to fifteen minutes put it down and do it again throughout the day. So I'm hoping it's a goodie that'll do the job til it's time to upgrade. Beware of the ROUS's Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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