Mix sounds drastically different in iTunes?

[el-bo]

I confirm what Christian says. Did a test with Audio Hijack Pro (iTunes vs Quicktime). They null.

 

J.

 

ooooh, look at that transport bar

 

any chance of a share ??

[Holger Lagerfeldt]

Ok, here goes.

 

The setup: To rule out any influence of external participants, iffy software and dodgy mini-phone-plugs, I routed all three contenders (Logic, iTunes and QT Player to the same hardware outputs (RME Fireface800). Those hardware outputs are then software patched using Totalmix's foldback feature back into Logic's inputs. All iTunes gimmicks are off, of course.

 

The test: Record the playback of a WAV file that was initially bounced in Logic through iTunes and through QT Player back into Logic. Align the three tracks (Original, playback through iTunes and playback through QT Player), flip phase on both playbacked tracks and play each against the original track.

 

The result: Full cancellation from the first sample to the last, for 4.:30 minutes for both iTunes and QT Player.

 

The next test: Playing a 192k mp3 that was bounced from Logic as Original, through iTunes and through QT Player.

 

The result: Full cancellation from the first sample to the last, for 4.:30 minutes for both iTunes and QT Player.

 

And just for a laugh: checking the mp3 through both iTunes and QT Player against the original, uncompressed WAV.

 

The result: As expected, quiet squishy squashy but otherwise absolutely consistent sounds, from top to bottom, no drift whatsoever.

 

So, the myth that iTunes does something behind the scenes (besides the obvious, stupid Sound Enhancer stuff) is no more.

 

The result: iTunes is a completely transparent player, as is QT Player.

 

Christian

 

http://neurobonkers.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/THUMBS_UP_MAN_small.jpg

[Jordi Torres]

ooooh, look at that transport bar

 

any chance of a share ??

 

It's from Edgar Rothermich's site:

 

http://rothermich.com/Edgar/Manuals.html

 

Click on the "Logic 9" link in GUI Customization.

 

J.

[camillo jr]

Hey guys, I'm not trying to be inflammatory here, or dense about it. I haven't been able to do a good null test yet but I trust the results that both Christian and Jordito obtained from their tests - I believe they have got the respective QT and iTunes files to null.

 

But given that, I don't understand why I continue to hear a subtle difference between the two players. And I also have to say that I never had an ax to grind about this issue; until recently, I believed that the differences that people reported were due to either itunes' settings or to imagination. But I don't believe that now. I've spent quite a bit of time going back and forth with the two players playing all kinds of different material - classical, pop, dance, folk, bluegrass etc, through my monitors and through headphones.

 

What I've found is that to get them to sound close, I need to turn down QT's output slightly, using the volume slider on it's GUI. And as I hop back and forth, the differences are much slighter - but still there. On headphones especially, I can hear a slightly wider image with QT than with iTunes.

 

Is there possibly some other factor at work here? Does the front end GUI "get in between" the listener in a way that recording directly through say Audio Hijack or an I/O box doesn't?

 

It's very easy to be compelled by seemingly objective evidence and I respect the efforts that Christian and Jordito made in trying to clear this up. But subjectively I hear a difference and so far I don't know why. It's not a huge difference for me - iTunes doesn't sound bad to me but if I had to cast a vote of preference, I'd go for QT's fuller, wider sound, especially with both player's volumes at full.

[Fagabeefy]

Well maybe I'm experiencing some sort of technical glitch with my player. I have had problems with this imac in the past, had to replace my audio board, my screen, and have also dealt with a spontaneous 'shut down' problem, all within the past three years. Maybe it's a hardware problem, or something like what some of these people are experiencing?

 

http://forums.techguy.org/multimedia/399403-itunes-crackles-2.html

 

Anyway.. it doesn't really matter because I'm only dealing with this bad sound in itunes. I'm going to try this, because I don't need itunes, too much nonsense for me just to play cds.

 

http://www.voxapp.uni.cc/

[ski]

Camillo,

 

When you do foldback-recording from TotalMix from Logic itself you'll have to adjust either:

 

a) your recording delay value (mine is -75 samples), or...

 

b) leave rec. delay at zero (which it should be set to for RME gear) and shift the folded-back recording to be early by (75) samples to align with your original.

 

Do a null test from Logic using an AIFF or WAV to find out what the proper value is for your system. And make sure software monitoring is switched off when you do this, or, set the track you're recording to to "no output" -- all to prevent a feedback loop.

[Matt Mayfield]

Hey guys, I'm not trying to be inflammatory here, or dense about it. I haven't been able to do a good null test yet but I trust the results that both Christian and Jordito obtained from their tests - I believe they have got the respective QT and iTunes files to null.

 

But given that, I don't understand why I continue to hear a subtle difference between the two players. And I also have to say that I never had an ax to grind about this issue; until recently, I believed that the differences that people reported were due to either itunes' settings or to imagination. But I don't believe that now. I've spent quite a bit of time going back and forth with the two players playing all kinds of different material - classical, pop, dance, folk, bluegrass etc, through my monitors and through headphones.

 

What I've found is that to get them to sound close, I need to turn down QT's output slightly, using the volume slider on it's GUI. And as I hop back and forth, the differences are much slighter - but still there. On headphones especially, I can hear a slightly wider image with QT than with iTunes.

 

Is there possibly some other factor at work here? Does the front end GUI "get in between" the listener in a way that recording directly through say Audio Hijack or an I/O box doesn't?

 

It's very easy to be compelled by seemingly objective evidence and I respect the efforts that Christian and Jordito made in trying to clear this up. But subjectively I hear a difference and so far I don't know why. It's not a huge difference for me - iTunes doesn't sound bad to me but if I had to cast a vote of preference, I'd go for QT's fuller, wider sound, especially with both player's volumes at full.

 

This sounds like the placebo effect combined with a very small level difference. Main points:

 

- Experiencing and being "fooled" by the placebo effect doesn't mean you're dumb or gullible; it means you're human. No one, not naive beginners, not seasoned experts, can avoid it or compensate for it - ever - except by doing blind tests.

 

- When one otherwise identical sound clip is, say, 0.1 dB louder than another, a person does not usually perceive it as a volume level difference. They usually perceive it as sounding somehow "better" or "fuller" in an intangible way.

 

Using Occam's Razor, I think we now have the simplest and most likely explanation for what you are experiencing.

 

There's still a remote possibility there's something else going on, but I believe it is extremely likely it is just a level difference and/or placebo effect.

[el-bo]

ooooh, look at that transport bar

 

any chance of a share ??

 

It's from Edgar Rothermich's site:

 

http://rothermich.com/Edgar/Manuals.html

 

Click on the "Logic 9" link in GUI Customization.

 

J.

 

thanks a million..got it

[camillo jr]

There's still a remote possibility there's something else going on, but I believe it is extremely likely it is just a level difference and/or placebo effect.

 

On my system, the effect I'm hearing has two basic components. For sure, level is part of it - iTunes is definitely quieter than QT. However, even when I lower QT's volume to match iTunes, QT's mix still sounds wider so this is not simply a psycho acoustic phenomenon where louder is better. And if I pull QT's volume to slightly below iTunes' QT still still has the wider mix.

 

 

pla•ce•bo

 

(insert Spanish accent here) "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means"

[fuzzfilth]

You state you could not get your tracks to null. Did you route them to the same hardware outputs ? Hardware outputs that actually qualify for the task ? Like, outputs from a real audio interface ? I get the feeling that we're really discussing everyone's crappy Mac onboard soundcard.

 

Christian

[Thetaobera]

Sounds like the mcgurk effect to me!

 

http://paul.kedrosky.com/archives/2010/11/the_mcgurk_effe.html

 

[camillo jr]

You state you could not get your tracks to null. Did you route them to the same hardware outputs ? Hardware outputs that actually qualify for the task ? Like, outputs from a real audio interface ? I get the feeling that we're really discussing everyone's crappy Mac onboard soundcard.

 

Christian

 

The hardware is my RME, which I've been using both for my monitors and headphones in the previously mentioned subjective listening tests.

 

For some reason, when I create a foldback path, I can't get my output working without creating some weird ring-mod kind of edge to it it. I'm using a physical cable to return the signal to the input to another record-enabled track but the recordings all come out with this ringmod sound. I've been at this for a while now trying different inputs and such but now I need to put this to rest for a while and look at it another day.

[David Nahmani]

Sounds like the mcgurk effect to me!

 

http://paul.kedrosky.com/archives/2010/11/the_mcgurk_effe.html

 

 

WOW!!! That's absolutely incredible. At first I couldn't believe it so I watched the video again, this time closing my eyes, and it works. It's simply unbelievable.

[fuzzfilth]

when I create a foldback path, I can't get my output working without creating some weird ring-mod kind of edge to it

You're not by chance having your recording track playing to that same output ? This creates real feedback, of course. You need to mute the recording channel (not track).

I'm using a physical cable to return the signal to the input to another record-enabled track but the recordings all come out with this ringmod sound. .

That points more to a clocking issue, which a drifting recording also suggests. In the RME Settings panel, make sure you have the clock master set to internal.

 

Christian

[Holger Lagerfeldt]

Sounds like the mcgurk effect to me!

 

http://paul.kedrosky.com/archives/2010/11/the_mcgurk_effe.html

 

I'm immune

[Rev. Juda Sleaze]

Sounds like the mcgurk effect to me!

 

http://paul.kedrosky.com/archives/2010/11/the_mcgurk_effe.html

 

I'm immune

 

Hmmm... I'm not immune, but it I didn't hear an "F" the second time, it just made the whole beginning consonant kind of disappear

 

Pretty cool!

 

Slightly more on topic, if someone has any inklinkg of sharing their music, it seems crazy to never test it in iTunes, whether you think it sucks or not. It's the most likely platform it'll be listened on. It's like saying you refuse to check your music on a car stereo or crappy hi-fi... or mp3...

[Thetaobera]

I'm immune

 

You're Danish The video example is in American English. Not sure if those sounds or the manner in which they're said are at all similar in Danish.

[Holger Lagerfeldt]

Good point, but it's identical in Danish in this case.

 

Far (pronounced exactly the same way in Danish) means father.

 

I don't want to sound full of myself but I think years of mastering audio can make a difference, though I can be susceptible to placebo like everybody else.

[el-bo]

Sounds like the mcgurk effect to me!

 

http://paul.kedrosky.com/archives/2010/11/the_mcgurk_effe.html

 

 

what a great link

 

currently watching the whole thing...fascinating stuff

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSJxLNbQRLk&feature=related

 

thanks again

[camillo jr]

when I create a foldback path, I can't get my output working without creating some weird ring-mod kind of edge to it

You're not by chance having your recording track playing to that same output ? This creates real feedback, of course. You need to mute the recording channel (not track).

I'm using a physical cable to return the signal to the input to another record-enabled track but the recordings all come out with this ringmod sound. .

That points more to a clocking issue, which a drifting recording also suggests. In the RME Settings panel, make sure you have the clock master set to internal.

 

Christian

 

Alright, I am one or two steps closer to doing a proper null test. I found that the "ringmod" sound was due to having RME's input fader7 up at the same time as the DAW output fader7 and the RME output fader7. Once I zeroed that, the signal is fine.

 

Regarding the RME's clock settings, I have no "internal" setting labeled as such. Would that be the same as "Master"?

[fuzzfilth]

Yes. Didn't know the exact wording not being in front of it.

 

Christian

[camillo jr]

While I am happy to have found out about RME's software loopback, I'm still not having any success getting a definitive null test.

 

One thing that is working is that by doing it this way, I'm not getting the drift that I had when using soundflower for this test. The files line up, beginning to end, viewed at full zoom.

 

In Logic I have imported the same WAV file that's being played by iTunes and QT.

 

When I record the iTunes and the QT outputs to new tracks in logic and line them up, I cannot get ANY of these files to null with each other. So I'm possibly still doing something wrong here. I have Logic's prefs set to record WAV files for this test and I have 24 bit recording turned off. I'm assuming that means it will record 16 bit files, the same as the original.

 

Christian, maybe there is something in your method that I am missing?

 

Outside of all of this, I continue to hear a difference between iTune's and QT's output. QT is wider, no doubt. Even when comparing them from within Logic I can still hear that characteristic difference between the QT and iTunes files. So I suspect there is something different going on on my system then on others. I've never noticed the difference between the players before simply because I wasn't in the habit of opening iTunes files in QT and then comparing. But now that I've spent a lot of time doing exactly that, I can state with confidence that there is a difference on my system. And I'm hoping that those reading this thread can appreciate that it's possible to hear such differences because of training and not because of tricks of the imagination. And that such a difference may be system specific.

[fuzzfilth]

Which would imply that your system is different from all others. And probably not in a positive way.

 

Anyway. What I did, just to recap, is route the Standard Output to FF800 1-2 in Audio-MIDI-Setup. This makes iTunes and QTP play through that outputs, with the Mac's level buttons inactive. I folded those outs back to the ins and recorded iTunes and QTP into the same stereo file, one right after the other. This made sure I used the same signal path (even in software) and level settings (if any).

 

Create such a file and put it up somewhere. Let us in on the fun. But don't cheat, we'll find out anyway.

 

Christian

[Holger Lagerfeldt]

It seems there's an explanation and solution to the problem some are experiencing with iTunes 10.1:

 

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/6110488-post78.html

 

I had a guy with the mentioned problem on my own forum and he was able to sucessfully fix it using the above method, as were several in the above GS thread.

[camillo jr]

Which would imply that your system is different from all others. And probably not in a positive way.

 

There are two at least, myself and Fagabeefy. But yes, it would be better if I didn't have this difference.

 

Anyway. What I did, just to recap, is route the Standard Output to FF800 1-2 in Audio-MIDI-Setup. This makes iTunes and QTP play through that outputs, with the Mac's level buttons inactive. I folded those outs back to the ins and recorded iTunes and QTP into the same stereo file, one right after the other. This made sure I used the same signal path (even in software) and level settings (if any).

 

That is exactly what I did with each app's output set to full on. It's worth noting that visually, the original file and the QT output greatly resemble each other at full waveform zoom, (top and bottom regions in screenshot) but you can see that the iTunes output is different from both of those.

 

Create such a file and put it up somewhere. Let us in on the fun. But don't cheat, we'll find out anyway.

 

Christian

 

Honestly, I have no desire to cheat but rather to learn. And so far as a result of this thread I have learned how to use the RME in software foldback mode, how to do a ping test to set my recording delay and that Soundflower may not be reliably following clock. Oh - and that I can hear a difference between iTunes and QT.

 

I'm hoping that I can find a way to make those identical because right now, I much prefer the way music sound in QT. But it is no where near as convenient as iTunes.

[camillo jr]

Holger! Didn't see your post till after mine above. That fixed it!!!

 

Thank you so much. And thanks to Fagabeefy for making me aware of the problem in the first place. Try it out this solution and let us know if it works for you.

 

This has all been with iTunes 10.1.

[David Nahmani]

It seems there's an explanation and solution to the problem some are experiencing with iTunes 10.1

 

Awesome! Thank you so much for posting that!

[fuzzfilth]

iTunes 10.1 it is, then eh ?

 

I'm on 10.0.1.

 

So you mean my routinely dismissal of those obnoxious software update popups did, in one way or another, pay off in the end ?

 

And, anyway, so this is how it ends then ? Frodo and the fellows return to the Shire and that's that ? What a lame ending.

 

Christian

[camillo jr]

BTW, for those with the problem, it looks like this procedure may have to be done every time you turn on iTunes as one poster reported from that same thread at Gearslutz. Apple has released 10.1.1 but that has not fixed the problem yet.

[Fagabeefy]

Sometimes people bitch because there actually IS a real problem... I think those who don't make a living endorsing a product are a bit less forgiving for obvious problems with the software. Just a thought