Decipher this Time Signature?

[LMynx]

Hey all. I am trying to set up my little cousin with a logic session. He is just starting out playing guitar and he has the little riff attached below that he would like to work with. I keep counting a time signature of 9/4 (which I am not familiar with) or alternatively, 4/4-5/4, 4/4-5/4, etc.

 

My question is: could any of you affirm this or please tell me the correct time signature that his riff is in? I usually don't have a problem with this but this particular one is stumping me!

 

Also, as an added bonus, he would like to play it to a pre-programmed drum loop, which we could change later to better to suit the vibe of the recording. But, at first, supposing it is in one of the aforementioned time signatures or some other odd meter, could someone suggest a fairly common/basic drum pattern to suit it?

 

Thanks so much! I look forward to hearing some input.

 

LMynx

 

Ps. Please disregard the poor quality of the recording!

LittleJoeGuitar.mp3.zip

[Rev. Juda Sleaze]

You're right about the time signature.

 

I think for drums, just use a typical 4/4 beat with an added bit on the end of the five, if you know what I mean, as it's the fill at the end that runs over a beat, other than that it's a fairly standard rhythm. I could post an example some time tomorrow if you wanted.

[David Nahmani]

I hear 5/4+4/4.

[Rev. Juda Sleaze]

I guess 5+4 makes sense, but I hear the new bar as the chord changes, not on the first accented beat of the second chord.

[David Nahmani]

I guess 5+4 makes sense, but I hear the new bar as the chord changes, not on the first accented beat of the second chord.

If the first note of the audio file is the first note, then I hear the change on the downbeat.

 

First chord = 3 beats

Second chord = 2 beats

Third chord = 4 beats.

 

So 3+2+4, but 5+4 makes more sense.

[Rev. Juda Sleaze]

Hmmm...

 

When I tap along on my desk I hear 4+3+2 with a lot of off-beat action. I'll post an example.

[David Nahmani]

I hear the chord changes right on the downbeats. Here's my 3+2+4 two times in a row. The metronome sync is not perfect but it should be close enough to hear the count:

 

timey.mp3.zip

[Rev. Juda Sleaze]

This is how I hear it (very roughly):

LittleJoeyDrum.mp3.zip

[ski]

I'm hearing this distinctively as:

 

4/4 (3 bars)

6/4 (1 bar)

 

An 18-beat loop.

[Rev. Juda Sleaze]

I'm hearing this distinctively as:

 

4/4 (3 bars)

6/4 (1 bar)

 

An 18-beat loop.

 

Well that's just silly

[ski]

 

 

Maybe the attachment in the following post will convince you otherwise?

 

Maybe?

 

(This is going to be interesting)

Edited June 14, 2012 by ski

[ski]

Here's a project to demonstrate:

 

Lil Joe.zip

[CarlosUnderground]

Ski:

So you mean 18/4? Dang, that's a buck full of counting.

LMAO

[ski]

But no, that's not what I meant... Talkin' 4+4+4+6.

[Eriksimon]

Hm, guys, it is just 4/4 with an imo unintended extra beat... don't forget it is someone who just started playing... why would he start with such a complex ts. I just snipped out the extra beat and the it sounds like, well, see - euh, hear attachment.

LittleJoeMynx.zip

Logic Project 8/4

LJguit.m4a.zip

Bounce from Logic Project 8/4

[ski]

I beg to differ here. Being a beginner has nothing to do with whether someone's capable of playing something in a "complex" time signature. And there isn't an extra beat, there are two. But really, they're not extra at all; they're part of the music.

 

That rhythm is absolutely infectious and inspiring (even if it isn't in 5/4 LOL!). Couldn't get it out of my head for the longest time. Nice going Little Joe!

[Eriksimon]

Ski, what do you consider to be the first beat here? As you can hear, I chose the last single note of the riff. But it is to some extent pretty arbitrary here. I need a bassline!

And I do totally agree that Little Joe is talented. He did not count, he "just played". It might even be that once he is taught how to count, he won't play it as smoothly as he did on this recording, with just the 'subconcious' counting...

But I count only one "extra" beat. In fact, I cut out 1 in every nine beats in my uploaded project-example and ended up with two 4/4 bars, as you can hear, so I'm not sure where you find that second "extra" beat... ?

I'd say it is 9/4 (2+3+2+2).

Later addition:

OK, as an extra I beatmapped it, and another thing struck me: he's pretty steady/solid, varying at worst only ± 1 BPM!

 

I also put in the (a?) correct TS, being 9/4.

 

I'd love to try & make a bassline for it...

 

Here's the project inc. assets, and that "8beat remix":

LittleJoeMynxNineQ.zip

LittleJoe playing 9/4, beatmapped.

LJguit8Q.m4a.zip

Little Joe playing 8/4, snipped out 1 Q (beat).

Edited June 14, 2012 by Eriksimon

[ski]

Ski, what do you consider to be the first beat here?

 

The first beat occurs slightly later than the actual start of the audio file. The recording wasn't trimmed to start right on a played beat; it's a little early, starting on some ringout from what might have been the previous round of the cycle. So I agree that the start point is kind of arbitrary. However, the bass note (the lowest note he played) is undoubtedly the musical anchor. So I moved the audio file's anchor point ever so slightly to the right to align it to the bass note and voila, it all made sense.

 

Sorry, can't open your file right now. Will do in the AM tho.

 

Cheers,

 

Ski

[Rev. Juda Sleaze]

Maybe the attachment in the following post will convince you otherwise?

 

It's an interesting rhythm for sure.

 

Obviously there's quite a few ways for this to be interpreted.

 

But I've got to poo-poo the idea of turning into straight 8s, it removes all the charm!

 

Anyway, nice going little joe, may you never get stuck in 4/4

[LMynx]

Hey all. Thanks so much for taking the time to have a listen to this. It's much appreciated. It seems like it's just some manifestation of 9 beats and it can be interpreted in any number of ways, which is cool. I did the same thing a lot of you guys did by toying around with where to place the "start" of the phrase and I am glad to see that we all came up with some interesting ways to interpret it.

 

@Rev.

Thanks for taking the time to put some drums on it. I played along as well and was treating it as 4/4-4/4 with a fill at the end for the extra beat kind of like you did.

 

@David.

Thanks for another reply. I hadn't thought of counting it out the way you did. I will set up the accents like you did and let him try to play along.

 

@ski.

Thanks for the input. I toyed around with 12/4-6/4 treating it as an 18 beat phrase too. Your way makes more sense though since I think 12/4 has a feel not quite represented here.

 

@erik.

Thanks for the multiple takes on it. I tried to shrink a beat off at one point too to try to make it a little more "regular" but felt it removed the quirkiness that gives the phrase it's charm.

 

I am going to set up a few different backing tracks for him to play along to when I see him this weekend and just use whatever makes him the most comfortable and allows for the natural feel of the part to come through. I will be sure to post a version of the track once we work it all out. I will let him read all of your comments as well. Thanks again everyone!

 

LMynx

[ski]

Hi LMynx,

 

You're welcome. But I wasn't thinking 12/4. Rather, as I said, three measures of 4/4 and one measure of 6/4. Personally I think that makes the most sense for a "double time" feel for the pulse (tempo). If you download and play my Logic project you'll see what I mean.

 

Otherwise, your choices are, with a slower pulse (half the tempo of what I did in the Logic project) are...

 

• three measures of 2/4 and one measure of 3/4

• one measure of 4/4, then 2/4, then 3/4

• one measure of 6/4 and one measure of 3/4

 

You also have the option of doing the entire thing in a "quick" 2/4 (at the faster tempo).

 

It all depends on what tempo or "pulse" you decide on.

[LMynx]

Hey ski.

 

You are right. I meant to say that 12/4 didn't feel correct and that I saw your analysis as being much more spot on than mine. Sorry if I didn't make that clear. I have downloaded your file and listened to it and I am going to toy with the further suggestions you posted for a slower pulse. Thanks again for the taking the time to give feedback and for setting up the Logic project. I do appreciate it.

 

LMynx

[ski]

No problem!

 

Having listened to the clip again prior to making my last post, I have to once again remark how I enjoyed listening to it, even though it's "just" a repeating part. It's captivating, hypnotic, shows a lot of personality in both the chord progression and the playing. I hope that when you're done with your production that you might consider posting a link to it so that we can hear the final result.

 

Cheers,

 

Ski

[aleos]

that is a wonderful little piece. Well done little joe. As a guitar teacher, I can tell you from experience, that if that is you "starting out" on guitar, buddy you are in the right business! Keep on going.

 

And I agree absolutely with Ski. It is 3 bars of 4/4, and 1 bar of 6/4.

There is no odd time in it.

The reason I would argue this, is that there is no odd-time feel in it. Odd time signatures emit a distinctive type of odd pulse.

The chordal strumming is obviously in 4, and the melody/riff is in 6.

It's a 4 bar cylcle, classic, but spiced up a bit with an augmented last bar.

To illustrate this, if you start beatboxing a high-hat sound with your mouth, you'll notice that you never get "off" beat. ie; If you put the high hat on 2 and 4, it will always be there and won't be inverted when the cycle restarts, which is what would happen with "odd" time.

[Rev. Juda Sleaze]

To illustrate this, if you start beatboxing a high-hat sound with your mouth, you'll notice that you never get "off" beat. ie; If you put the high hat on 2 and 4, it will always be there and won't be inverted when the cycle restarts, which is what would happen with "odd" time.

 

Nah, I drummed along with my hands and totally got off-beats. I naturally found it to be 4+2+3, sometimes 4+3+2.

 

I don't think anyone can put a definitive answer on this, as different people's interpretation will vary.

[aleos]

Nah, I drummed along with my hands and totally got off-beats. I naturally found it to be 4+2+3, sometimes 4+3+2.

 

I don't think anyone can put a definitive answer on this, as different people's interpretation will vary.

 

Try it again. But let it pass one time as, Ski mentioned, the beginning of the audio file doesn't quite let you hear the down beat. The down beat is a soft bass note. There may be many ways of "interpreting" it. But it is most definitely in 4/4 with a bar of 6 at the end.

Consider that the rhythm he is playing is classic acoustic rock guitar rhythm in 4 played by tons of people before, and then the final bar is a melody that lasts 6 beats

[Rev. Juda Sleaze]

Ok, tried it again, now I'm getting 3+3+3 (actually more like 3+3+2+1), or 4+3+2.

 

I dunno, I don't get why you're so set on saying it's obvious, when you could put lots of interesting rhythms behind this.

[aleos]

interesting rhythms for sure can be superimposed! I'm all about that.

But I'm just answering the OP question.

The most common, and I would say "clear" way to interpret the music is the above mentioned 4+4+4+6.

If we were going to pass this to a band or make an arrangement, that is what you would tell the other musicians. I think the point of communicating in musical terms is to be as clear as possible with regards to the music. And since little Joe plays a bass note and pauses the high part of guitar for a little, I've interpreted that as the downbeat. Which is a common technique in guitar playing.

How do I attach an audio file? I added some percussion to make it clear what I'm hearing.

[Rev. Juda Sleaze]

How do I attach an audio file? I added some percussion to make it clear what I'm hearing.

 

Cool, option-click or right-click the file in finder and select "compress", then press the "upload attachment" button under the text box (not available if you select "quick reply") and browse to the file and attach.

 

EDIT: best to use .mp3, as it's smaller.

[Rev. Juda Sleaze]

If we were going to pass this to a band or make an arrangement, that is what you would tell the other musicians.

 

Well, that all depends on how the composer wants it to be interpreted, no?