Fran Carpenter Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 Dear All Could someone let me know why Logic has such poor inbuilt sounds. They really do sound atrocious to me, especially acoustic instruments. Many solo acoustic instruments don't even exist, within any package e.g. solo violin, trumpet, solo trombone etc and the ones that do are not that good (clarinet and flute leave a bit to be desired). Could anyone recommend me a good add on set of solo acoustic instruments sounds, if such a thing exists? Which will easily integrate into Logic and appear by magic in the lists menu, and operate smoothly like the packaged sounds (I can do without any faffing about with settings!) And which won't cost me more than £200? (I'm hoping a lot less!) Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beej Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 HIghly detailed, multi-articulation sample libraries of excellent acoustics and musicianship are expensive. If you want to mock up orchestral scores or other acoustic music to a high standard, then you will need to invest in third-party libraries, and you are looking at *thousands*. A few hundred might get you a small scale library, but even then, particularly with solo instruments, programming realistic parts can be challenging because of the static nature of samples. Basically, nothing beats doing it for real - everything else is a compromise (but it can work excellently if you compose with the sounds and articulations you have in mind). What you get in Logic is *amazing*, and generally far more than other DAWs, but you are not getting a full-featured product like the Vienna Orchestra sample libraries bundled for free. And not everyone wants or needs that level or type of library anyway... There is lots of stuff out there - google is your friend (and I'm sure others will chime in with some recommendations). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jope Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 I don't think Logic's Instruments are "poor", but I think I got your point. I decided for myself to avoid samples where I can and focus on synthetic sounds and maximum control instead, but as you can see below I also use Mr.Sax T. which is amazing. It was made by samplemodeling, and they have some other instruments you might like. The point to me is, I can play a saxophone via the keyboard and a breath controller, and it sounds as if one played a real instrument with expression (although I know there will always be certain tricks and noises that you can't achieve by the virtual instrument). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ski Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 "Atrocious" is relative. How well any sampled sound works is relative to the context you're using it in. Not every sample is appropriate for every musical style or tempo. That said, even if you spend several thousand pounds on sounds, you will have to do a LOT of faffing about. There is no magic. Sure, some sounds will offer immediate gratification, such as some of the solo woodwinds in EastWest's orchestral instruments. I could play the legato solo oboe for hours and feel satisfied if all I want is to compose smooth, legato, lyrical lines. But control of dynamics can't be had exclusively by playing notes louder and softer. For realism you have to also ride the volume to some extent. And then if you want articulations other than smooth/lyrical, it's time for key switching between different articulations. So if you want realism, there's no magic. It actually takes a lot of work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fran Carpenter Posted June 21, 2012 Author Share Posted June 21, 2012 Atrocious is probably a bit strong, OK, I agree. But I am disappointed that there are no solo sounds at all for some instruments. Thanks all, for the comments above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camillo jr Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 Have a look in your legacy folder - there's pop flute and trumpet in there that can be massaged to be much more expressive via control wheel. But that also goes for many of the other instruments that come with Logic. They need some extra programming to get more expression out of them. That being said, I think there's lots of great and useable stuff in Logic and many have extra articulations like hammer-ons for guitar, falls in the horn section, special trills on one or two of the ethnic flutes and so on. Worth exploring. I find that many of the solo orchestral instruments are quite useable too. Even though they have set vibratos, when you put some of these in a mix, they can sound all right. They'll never sound like the East West solo horn and winds (which I have and love) but you can get some parts out of them for sure. Re - Logic's solo violin..... yup, atrocious! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camillo jr Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 Another potential "library" just occurred to me. I recently DL'd Wallander's WIVI demo and I was impressed with the ease of use and quality of sounds. They are all wind and horn sounds. Some have complained about a certain "synthyness" with this plug (all instruments are entirely synthesized - no samples in this piece of software) but they respond very nicely to modwheel and velocity input. And it has a really small footprint; I think like 40 MB or so. I'm probably going to get at least their stripped-down band version at some point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fran Carpenter Posted June 22, 2012 Author Share Posted June 22, 2012 Thanks. I've not really got enough time nor energy to edit sounds. Maybe should go on some sort of course to find out what I can do with it all in that respect, but it's all time and money I don't really have! Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jope Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 [...] it's all time and money I don't really have! They say "time is money". I hate this sentence. Time is all we have, money is a highly unreal and abstract thing that has nothing to do with life. (You may say you need it for living expenses, but this is not my point.) You can buy something that others made by spending time, ok. Maybe it will help you making music, but what is in it (I'm speaking of the creative process, invention, inspiration and diligence) is not part of your life. As you write you have neither time nor money, we can end it here. If you are willing and able to spend some time or money, time would be the far better choice, I think. You gain skills that help you in many ways when making music. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shivermetimbers Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 [...] it's all time and money I don't really have! They say "time is money". I hate this sentence. Time is all we have, money is a highly unreal and abstract thing that has nothing to do with life. (You may say you need it for living expenses, but this is not my point.) You can buy something that others made by spending time, ok. Maybe it will help you making music, but what is in it (I'm speaking of the creative process, invention, inspiration and diligence) is not part of your life. As you write you have neither time nor money, we can end it here. If you are willing and able to spend some time or money, time would be the far better choice, I think. You gain skills that help you in many ways when making music. At $10K - Time IS money !!! http://www.goldwatchco.com/uploads/images/products/83dba16c-0831-4300-8acc-bb72c8490e33.jpg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rikki rivett Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 http://www.logicprohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=774&p=3858&hilit=rikki+rivett#p3858 http://www.logicprohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=756&p=3791&hilit=rikki+rivett#p3791 these should get you started in bringing your sounds to life HTH RR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gdoubleyou Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 When I first bought Logic, (Logic 6 timeframe) I invested in some of the Pro Samples series libraries from East/West to quickly/cheaply build up my EXS library. Just search there are still a lot of EXS product out there, some of the better ones from small shops. What struck me when hearing libraries from other virtual instruments and hardware instruments, was that most of them had effects added. Create your own variations with custom channel strips. My hunch is that EXS will have a MAJOR update, after the purchase of Redmatica, may even involve the mysterious Articulation ID. 8) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Jackson Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 (edited) They say "time is money". I hate this sentence. Time is all we have, money is a highly unreal and abstract thing that has nothing to do with life. Time? A man made concept just as unreal as money. All we really have is the moment. If you live in the moment time and money have no meaning whatsoever. Unless of course at the moment you're taking the time to spend some money on a cold beer or a cheese burger or whatever else you spend your time and money on. [Edited] To correct obvious typos and compensate for dyslexia. Edited June 22, 2012 by Scott Jackson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jope Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 Time? A man made concept just as unreal as money. All we really have is the moment. If you live in the moment time a money have no meaning whatsoever. Good point... Well... Er... It's just skills and memories that we collect, they are things related to time. But maybe those aren't real, either... Maybe I haven't reached your degree of enlightment... Unless of course at the moment you're taking the time spend some money on a cold beer or a cheese burger or whatever else you spend your time and money on. Oh, I think I have reached it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Jackson Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 Oh, I think I have reached it. 8) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rikki rivett Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 back on topic.....it's really easy and fun to make your own exs24 Instruments actually, especially if you use Keymap Pro. RR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jope Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 back on topic..... What topic at all? Oh, let me add I can't get rid of the feeling "time" was invented by the advertising for life assurances while "moment" is a brainchild of people who want to sell you things you can drink or smoke. Ok, back on topic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Jackson Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 Ok, back on topic. Not quite yet. Oh, let me add I can't get rid of the feeling "time" was invented by the advertising for life assurances while "moment" is a brainchild of people who want to sell you things you can drink or smoke. Isn't life grand? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanRad Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 I have lot's of libraries and believe it or not, I go to certain EXS sounds still... Oboe, Celeste, Many different drum kits, Indian flute is excellent, some pizz, Many of the factory Apple loops are excellent. "It's a poor craftsman who blames his tools." If you know how to write for the real instrument, your synth imitations will sound a lot better.... just sayin' DanRad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fran Carpenter Posted June 26, 2012 Author Share Posted June 26, 2012 Thanks for that... interesting conversation. And some interesting comments about time and money! I shall invest, when I have the money, some time in going on an accredited Logic course. Until then I shall explore some of the plugins you mention. Thanks for all the advice! (And I do use many of the EXS sounds, many are very good. I just don't always quite have what I need for the kind of compositions I do, which require good acoustic sounds.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rikki rivett Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 the kind of compositions I do......require good acoustic sounds.) ....which specific sounds would those be? Solo instruments or ensembles? Orchestral or contempary? Maybe we can suggest some inexpensive libraries which you might like RR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fran Carpenter Posted June 28, 2012 Author Share Posted June 28, 2012 I write a lot of simple arrangements, not too full, because most of my music is for very young children to sing along to. Heavy arrangements and heavy full instrument sounds are too overpowering. I need lots of basic good solo acoustic orchestral instruments, and lots of pretty twinkly sounds and bell sounds! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ski Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 Fran, Can you pop for Komplete 8 Ultimate? If so, that will give you a ton of what you're looking for, especially in the string and twinkly departments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rikki rivett Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 I write a lot of simple arrangements, not too full, because most of my music is for very young children to sing along to. Heavy arrangements and heavy full instrument sounds are too overpowering. I need lots of basic good solo acoustic orchestral instruments, and lots of pretty twinkly sounds and bell sounds! -VSL do some competitive deals for solo instruments, but price-wise Garritan and Kirk Hunter can't be beaten and they sound great -Bolder Sounds -a treasure trove -Cinematique Instruments-quirky, fun , and very inexpensive -Sampletekk Bob's Brass (50% off right now) those could all be right up your street You can also look at older Akai & Gigasampler libraries, exs can convert those. Westgate Studios for instance have some nice Woodwinds. If you are willing to use Kontakt -which I recommend- Audio Thing have some gems at great prices, too, could be perfect for childrens' -style music. I like the older Miroslav Vitous libraries for solo instruments, very basic multisampling but a lot of character, great bass clarinet for instance - I converted them form Giga format using CD Extract and Translator -these are older programs, the best one now is Keymap Pro. HTH RR PS: BTW, did you check out the links in my previous post (see below) : these tips make a huge difference in working with the exs sounds, & you may find that's all you need!! http://www.logicprohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=774&p=3858&hilit=rikki+rivett#p3858http://www.logicprohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=756&p=3791&hilit=rikki+rivett#p3791 these should get you started in bringing your sounds to life HTH RR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael2 Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 for what it's worth, I wouldn't bother investing in a lot of money to do childrens music. my kids are constantly listening to stories and music that have me floored by the terrible MIDI sounds. just awful sounding (nowhere near as good as the stuff in Logic). My kids don't notice this stuff (they're 5 and 2), and none of their friends have ever pointed out the poor quality of the string emulations. I would just make the stuff in Logic work for you. Just my opinion (which is often worthless). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Nahmani Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 my kids are constantly listening to stories and music that have me floored by the terrible MIDI sounds. just awful sounding (nowhere near as good as the stuff in Logic). My kids don't notice this stuff (they're 5 and 2), and none of their friends have ever pointed out the poor quality of the string emulations. Michael, I feel like that's quite a dangerous reasoning. And as a father of two boys myself, I strongly disagree with you on that one. And I have, too, heard the songs with crappy terrible MIDI sounds, or even worse, the toys with horrible 3 bit ringtonish music that keeps pitch bending by itself once the batteries are low - and have noticed that my kids don't really mind. Even if the melodies are completely out of tune and the beat keeps speeding up and slowing down, the kids don't mind. But for the sake of argumentation, let's push that reasoning and expand it into other sensorial activities. Feed your kids cheap food? Show them crappy movies? Buy them books with mediocre stories and half-assed drawings? Since they don't have a frame of reference, they'll never know the difference? If kids are born without a reference, it's our job as their educators to give them one. The better the reference we give them, the more demanding they will grow up to be. I grew up with incredible tasting fruits and veggies and now that I am an adult I pay a good price for those when i can find them. I can't stand a supermarket tomato - which only looks like a tomato. So in turn I cook good food for my kid, and I play him good music with good quality instruments. Also this type of reasoning "people don't make the difference" is what led us to the bland tasting food we have today: a series of shortcuts and tweaks performed by the food industry, that in themselves were undetectable by focus groups. But at the end of the whole series of tweaks, the food is no longer flavorful. I recently also responded to that kind of comment in this other thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael2 Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 my kids are constantly listening to stories and music that have me floored by the terrible MIDI sounds. just awful sounding (nowhere near as good as the stuff in Logic). My kids don't notice this stuff (they're 5 and 2), and none of their friends have ever pointed out the poor quality of the string emulations. Michael, I feel like that's quite a dangerous reasoning. And as a father of two boys myself, I strongly disagree with you on that one. And I have, too, heard the songs with crappy terrible MIDI sounds, or even worse, the toys with horrible 3 bit ringtonish music that keeps pitch bending by itself once the batteries are low - and have noticed that my kids don't really mind. Even if the melodies are completely out of tune and the beat keeps speeding up and slowing down, the kids don't mind. But for the sake of argumentation, let's push that reasoning and expand it into other sensorial activities. Feed your kids cheap food? Show them crappy movies? Buy them books with mediocre stories and half-assed drawings? Since they don't have a frame of reference, they'll never know the difference? If kids are born without a reference, it's our job as their educators to give them one. The better the reference we give them, the more demanding they will grow up to be. I grew up with incredible tasting fruits and veggies and now that I am an adult I pay a good price for those when i can find them. I can't stand a supermarket tomato - which only looks like a tomato. So in turn I cook good food for my kid, and I play him good music with good quality instruments. Also this type of reasoning "people don't make the difference" is what led us to the bland tasting food we have today: a series of shortcuts and tweaks performed by the food industry, that in themselves were undetectable by focus groups. But at the end of the whole series of tweaks, the food is no longer flavorful. I recently also responded to that kind of comment in this other thread. David, you are correct and I agree with you. My kids listen to that crappy MIDI when they are listening to audio books (as well as the toys you mentioned) and I don't think they even hear it as music. that's probably for the best. I am pretty much consumed with raising them to be intelligent, well rounded, and overflowing with empathy; so they get to hear a wide range of real music. They have a lot of musical instruments to play with (including some pretty nice cast-offs from dads collection), and we sit down at the piano and sing pretty much every day. As you say. I wouldn't feed them crap food (we have a big organic garden), so why should I feed them crap music. I guess when I made that statement, I was looking at it in a pragmatic fashion: as in getting the job done in a quick, efficient way that satisfies the client; and assuming that since it is children's stuff, the client wouldn't be very picky. In your reply, you took the high road.. i wasn't thinking of lessons to be taught to those impressionable creatures we love so much. You made some great points, and this is one of those moments where I feel like a hypocrite: when recording music for my kids or myself I take my time, enjoy the process and get it as good as I can within my skill set. but (here's the hypocritical part), on the few jobs I have had composing, it was always about how fast and how cheap can you get this thing done. so you cranked it out and were satisfied if the client was satisfied. what happens with it down the road is their business. I was actually really put off by this process, so I stopped pursuing those gigs (i'm a social worker now) what I didn't take into account, was that maybe the OP is working on a labor of love and wants his stuff to sound phenomenal (perhaps that the music is for his kids). actually didn't even cross my mind until I was away from the computer. i can wrap my mind around that, and would encourage him to get some sounds that he loves. Far be it from me to discourage someone from following their vision and doing it passionately. hope I didn't come across as advocating for a world of disposable crap, or down playing the worth of the OPs music. not my intent at all. was just spouting off from a profit/loss perspective. BTW, Kontakt is one sale for 50% off until July 7th (and a bunch of the soundsets for Kontakt Player). http://www.native-instruments.com/#/en/specials/10-years-of-kontakt/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Nahmani Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 AH! Okay Michael, that puts your other post in a completely different perspective, for sure! Seems like we agree in the end. In fact that makes me realize I need to spend more time with my kid at the piano! Too many "no, not now, I'm busy..." around here! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael2 Posted June 30, 2012 Share Posted June 30, 2012 AH! Okay Michael, that puts your other post in a completely different perspective, for sure! Seems like we agree in the end. In fact that makes me realize I need to spend more time with my kid at the piano! Too many "no, not now, I'm busy..." around here! i believe we probably see eye to eye on a lot of things (judging from your opinions). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rikki rivett Posted July 1, 2012 Share Posted July 1, 2012 I would be interested to know what the OP-Fran- did in the end! Nice thread actually RR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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