Logic 10,3 is here.

[BBeasley]

Same here, all 3rd party plugins, aside from Logic's gain plugin and an occasional EQ. Everything is working flawlessly so far. The problem I'm having isn't plugin related, it's control surface related. 

 

I admire your ability to tolerate using EXS24 with any capacity. That plugin makes me sad. 

The only thing I don't like about some stock plugins is their "horrible" skin. Too old and ugly. Other than that, I like all of them. EXS24 is my go-to when it comes to sampled sounds. And now with Alchemy being able to import EXS files, you don't have to be "sad" for using EXS24. Just import them into Alchemy and you're be happy again

By the way, what makes you just use 3rd party plugins and not Logic's? Aside from saying "they sound better", because that's very subjective, of course and I have a theory for that, if you're willing to share your reason(s)

I'm definitely interested in hearing your theory. And I totally agree with your previous post about limitations and creativity. I've purged my plugin list down to the essentials I need for what I do and that was a huge bonus in my workflow. Plus it made me learn way more about those plugins and find new ways to use them. I also agree that "great" plugins don't make great songs. In fact, some of the work I am most proud of was done on my iPad with shitty obscure apps that were either free or less than 5 bucks! 

 

BUT.....there are some plugins that simply do sound better than what Logic has to offer—some of them are in a completely other universe of better. U-He's Diva for instance. There is nothing in Logic that can come close to its sound. Also, Universal Audio's plugins. Logic's plugins can't compete. And of course plugins like Reaktor make things possible that would never be achievable with Logic alone. That's a very brief summary of why 3rd party plugins are my preference. But again, great music is great music, and can be made with anything. I just happen to need all the help I can get! 

 

Your theory......?

[fisherking]

ha! i almost-exclusively use 3rd party plugins (i use the EXS24, a delay or 2, and that's about it)... and all is well here. the only weird stuff is from logic itself... & some of it's been happening since 10.2 (ie the 'jump-to-the-top of the arrange window thing' when option-dragging regions).

Same here, all 3rd party plugins, aside from Logic's gain plugin and an occasional EQ. Everything is working flawlessly so far. The problem I'm having isn't plugin related, it's control surface related. 

 

I admire your ability to tolerate using EXS24 with any capacity. That plugin makes me sad. 

i use the EXS for exactly 3 things: it's default sine wave (sometimes for bass notes; don't laugh), the Grand Piano (which i use over anything else, including pianoteq), and the Kirk Hunter strings. for all other sample-playback, it's Sonic Arts Nuance...

[fisherking]

ha! i almost-exclusively use 3rd party plugins (i use the EXS24, a delay or 2, and that's about it)... and all is well here. the only weird stuff is from logic itself... & some of it's been happening since 10.2 (ie the 'jump-to-the-top of the arrange window thing' when option-dragging regions).

Same question I asked the other user: what makes you use almost-exclusively 3rd party plugins? "They sound better" is not a valid answer  

haha. because they smell better? i use about 6 synths i've narrowed down to over some years (i used to do a lot of beta-testing, and have tried MANY synth plugins), and am kinda married to some of the fabfilter plugins for eq, compression, etc). just the way it is (and then, it's how they soun I MEAN smell)....

[3ple]

The only thing I don't like about some stock plugins is their "horrible" skin. Too old and ugly. Other than that, I like all of them. EXS24 is my go-to when it comes to sampled sounds. And now with Alchemy being able to import EXS files, you don't have to be "sad" for using EXS24. Just import them into Alchemy and you're be happy again

By the way, what makes you just use 3rd party plugins and not Logic's? Aside from saying "they sound better", because that's very subjective, of course and I have a theory for that, if you're willing to share your reason(s)

I'm definitely interested in hearing your theory. And I totally agree with your previous post about limitations and creativity. I've purged my plugin list down to the essentials I need for what I do and that was a huge bonus in my workflow. Plus it made me learn way more about those plugins and find new ways to use them. I also agree that "great" plugins don't make great songs. In fact, some of the work I am most proud of was done on my iPad with shitty obscure apps that were either free or less than 5 bucks! 

 

BUT.....there are some plugins that simply do sound better than what Logic has to offer—some of them are in a completely other universe of better. U-He's Diva for instance. There is nothing in Logic that can come close to its sound. Also, Universal Audio's plugins. Logic's plugins can't compete. And of course plugins like Reaktor make things possible that would never be achievable with Logic alone. That's a very brief summary of why 3rd party plugins are my preference. But again, great music is great music, and can be made with anything. I just happen to need all the help I can get! 

 

Your theory......?

ok so my theory can be broken down into different sections:

1 - I will give you the same song, the same room, same speakers, same plugins and/or hardware and will ask you to mix a song today. Then in a month I will ask you to mix the same song. And I will do the same, but I will use just Logic's plugins. Now let's say that you can achieve a better mix today (to most people's ears, of course). But in a month I can achieve a better mix than you. Does it mean I have better plugins than you or vice versa? No. And that's why for me there's no "better" plugins, or that sounds "better", because "better" is subjective. That's why you have so many "great analog" compressors, used by different engineers, for example. If there was s definition of "great" or "sounds better", then there would be only one compressor that everyone would pick... THE compressor so the reason why you achieved a better mix today, but I achieved a better mix a month from now is that a mix is done by the person, the room, the speakers, not the other equipment. How would you justify that today you do a great mix and in a month a bad or not so good mix? Just because we have "those days" when things just don't sound good or not as good as other days

2 - Going back to "sounds better" as being subjective: most people I know (I can say 99.99%) always talk about analog stuff as the "holy grail" of music. Well, to me, that's another thing I don't understand (I'm not even touching the subject of how expensive hardware is, how limited you get by only having one unit per channel, unlike the digital, the time it takes you to go back and forth and edit on tape, etc). Sometimes some elements in a song are supposed to sound "crappy" so they can create the contrast between them and the "fat" ones. Just like with everything in life, the contrast is what allows us to identify things. That's why a drum kit has so many different elements that fill different frequency ranges, for example. You have singers who sound great on a Shure SM57 or SM58. Will they sound great on a Neumann that costs 5k? Maybe not. So the "sounds better" is also subjective, because it depends on the source (and the wallet, too lol). Just like something I read one day: "if everything is stereo, then nothing is stereo". And that applies to" if everything is "fat" then nothing is "fat". But again, the difference in quality between the digital and the analog is so tiny, that it doesn't pay to have all the fancy stuff anymore. 

My approach to 3rd party plugins is just how functional they are. How creative they can be. That's why most of my 3rd party plugins are more of creative tools, or just tools to make my workflow easier and faster, than actually because they sound better. The only plugin I can say "sounds better", just because it's suppose to emulate a real guitar/bass amp, is Magix' Vandal. I tried different amp simulators and none of them sounds like Vandal and that's why I can say it sounds better, because it's supposed to sound like an amp. Other than that, An EQ, a compressor, etc, they are just tools to help some source you put into them. I never heard a source treated by me with Logic's EQ or compressor sounding bad. And if it did, it was not the quality of the plugin, but the way I used it (or over used it).

Sorry for the long theory, but you asked for it lolol just kidding.

But hey, in the end, whatever works for each one of us, that's what matters, right? It's all about making what we love

[guavadude]

I checked out Magix Vandal and it's PC VST only. How are you using it on a Mac rig?

[3ple]

Same question I asked the other user: what makes you use almost-exclusively 3rd party plugins? "They sound better" is not a valid answer  

haha. because they smell better? i use about 6 synths i've narrowed down to over some years (i used to do a lot of beta-testing, and have tried MANY synth plugins), and am kinda married to some of the fabfilter plugins for eq, compression, etc). just the way it is (and then, it's how they soun I MEAN smell)....

I bet some hardware will smell better than other lol

My thing is that, when you listen to a song, you don't "hear" a compressor or an EQ. It either sounds good or bad. A "good" compressor in the "wrong hands" will sound awful or vice versa. I tried many different synths as well in the past and I ended up realizing that what comes with Logic nowadays (with Alchemy being introduced), is more than enough, as long as people know how to get the sound they want. Now the thing is, maybe sometimes you don't get the exact same sound as you can get on one a particular synth. True. But so what? Music is supposed to be a creative process. Logic Pro X comes with GB's and GB's of presets. Can one say ALL presets are crappy and only Sylenth or Massive or Omnisphere are good? What if suddenly Logic came up with a perfect copy of one of those synths, but with a different skin? I bet some new Logic users would be like: nah, (put synth name here) is better than that Logic's synth because people tend to think that what comes with a program is not good enough.

As I mentioned in a previous post, the only 3rd party plugins I have are just tools, creative tools. To manipulate a source in some way. For example, I have Fab Filter's Saturn. is it because the distortion is "better" than Logic's 6 or 7 different distortion plugins? Not at all. I only have it because I have the option to apply distortion to certain bands. That's really the ONLY reason. So it's about the features, not the "sound" quality, because it's subjective.

But I said it and will say it again: whatever works for each person, that's what matters. It's all about making great music, either Logic's stock plugins, 3rd party or two sticks that are sampled

[3ple]

I checked out Magix Vandal and it's PC VST only. How are you using it on a Mac rig?

I guess they stopped selling it as a Mac version...? I just emailed them asking about it.

I have mine for maybe 6 years now so I can't really say what happened... but check some demos online and listen to the sound. 

[aleos]

That UI will take some getting used to. I don't like the flatness of it at all. I know that's the trend right know but I think music applications should be an exception. I like my audio applications to look like serious tools, not like my wife's latest scrapbooking project.

 

It's like they read my mind with the "adding tracks to Logic projects via iCloud and GarageBand iOS". I literally just asked for that feature on this forum a few days ago. I know it has nothing to do with it but man, what a coincidence!

You mean with wannabe analog looking knobs that have no real benefit aside looking like their hardware counterparts anyone barely uses anymore? I hate skeumorphism in audio apps, in fact, this looks more "serious" and professional than previous iteration. It's surgical, clean and transparent

I'm with you totally. I can't stand the tacky wood paneling, or knobs, that some software uses. I was looking for the word "skeumorphism", I forgot it, but I knew it was out there. Thanks. Yeah, I think it looks way more 'pro' now. It's an interesting psychological/aesthetic question, one which obviously divides people. That being, does the aesthetic of trying to make the digital world, look like the real world provide comfort, and a sensation that you are working on 'real' hardware? Because for me, no matter how snazzy the graphics, I'm pretty sure I'm always working on a MacBook Pro, and not on a vintage Moog. And I want to have that feeling, that I'm working on my computer. I feel skeumorphisim is trying to make you feel better by transmitting the subconscious message that "don't worry you're using really cool vintage hardware", when in fact, I don't want to be using cool vintage hardware, I want to be using Logic Pro on the newest most futuristic computer. 

Interesting. Both takes on it are obviously valid, I totally understand the other position. Personal taste in the end. But the root of where that taste comes from is intriguing. 

[stardustmedia]

First time of my life I have to go to the hospital, for a surgery, and that's the moment when Apple updates Logic...

 

I'm dying to find out the new features. But I guess the best thing for me already is: Expanded color palette

[ProgAndy]

Thinking about upgrade to LPX 10.3 and Sierra.

 

Any compatibility issues with Apollo 16 (silverface) and Spectrasonics?

Hi eduluke.

Regarding the Apollo, please read this IMPORTANT UA article: https://help.uaudio.com/hc/en-us/articles/210208926-macOS-10-12-Sierra-Compatibility-Info 

there are some limitations and a work around.

To save me from trouble, I just upgraded from 10.10 to 10.11. 

Ciao.

Andy

[Ashermusic]

It seems to me that in this era a whole lot of people are more concerned with how things look than how they sound. I have been using music software since 1990 and the look of them has constantly changed and never mattered all that much to me or affected how good or not good my music came out.

[fisherking]

It seems to me that in this era a whole lot of people are more concerned with how things look than how they sound. I have been using music software since 1990 and the look of them has constantly changed and never mattered all that much to me or affected how good or not good my music came out.

i don't see a single post in this thread that states, in any way "am concerned about the GUI; i don't care about the sound"). it's ok to discuss the things that concern us... including the look of the software (i like it, btw). 

[Ashermusic]

It seems to me that in this era a whole lot of people are more concerned with how things look than how they sound. I have been using music software since 1990 and the look of them has constantly changed and never mattered all that much to me or affected how good or not good my music came out.

i don't see a single post in this thread that states, in any way "am concerned about the GUI; i don't care about the sound"). it's ok to discuss the things that concern us... including the look of the software (i like it, btw). 

 

Just a general observation, not exclusive to this thread or this forum. While people are entitled to worry about what they choose, I think too much energy goes into this. If you disagree, you disagree.

[Arnaud]

Some day I might convert to using just stock plugins. I can see how doing so would eliminate incompatibility (...). 

Even that is not so true (or at least not 100% bulletproof). Maybe you remember when the design of various stock plugins (including notably Tape Delay) was changed (from 10.2.0 to 10.2.1 if I remember well - or was it between two other version?). Anyway, not only GUI was changed, internal design as well, which messed up the way some parameters (e.g. rate in sync mode) were mapped in automation before vs after. Result was that some of my projects no longer sounded the way they should afterwards to the point of a radically awful result, and I had to fully redo the automation to eliminate the issue.

Nothing is fully safe in this world...

[des99]

It seems to me that in this era a whole lot of people are more concerned with how things look than how they sound.

I think these commends are less how it "looks" but more how it "works", and for some people the darker interface simply *worked* less well for them, as they found it difficult to use and therefore got in the way - in the same way as I find the new interface too bright for me personally, and all the grey makes it less contrasty, harder to see parameters, and more visual clutter, so i works for me less well than the 10.2 interface - but it's something I'm sure I'll get used to over time.

 

And there are other parts of Logic's interface which are all over the place in style now - Logic's interface had an overall consistency right up to Logic 7.x (although this had already started to be Apple-ised by this point), and since then, we've had a serious of fairly big interface overhauls - firstly to the silvery, all-in-one, round-buttons, opinionated design of Logic 8, and a slightly toned down version in LP9, the another big change in LPX, and then a second substantial LPX change in the new flatter look.

 

Because these changes were large, at each stage, they haven't really been able to do the job thoroughly, and maintain that consistency throughout the application (and the backward compability issues are also a challenge). We know they've been continuing to update the old stuff, but a lot of new graphic work that was done for LPX - the smart controls, the new plugins, the MIDI scripting stuff, which had a larger, friendlier, skeumorphic look, now starts to look out of place again with the new flatter aesthetic that it seems Apple is mandating for pro apps.

 

So now, within the one application we have such graphic inconsistencies as the environment faders/mixer (from Logic 6/7 and before), the plugins like the ES1 and EXS24 from Logic 4, tiny "spaceship" interfaces of Ultrabeat and Sculpture from Logic 6/7, various different plugin interfaces from all over the place, the flatter window chrome, and all with varying implementations of graphics frameworks from ancient bimap handling, through to proApp frameworks, vector based frameworks for some of the plugins, all implemented differently... it just seems they are just staring to catch up weaving all this stuff together when another mandate comes down the line to change Logic again, and once again, they're now way behind in changing this stuff up.

 

Logic has never been better, and it's clear they are working damn hard, and investing heavily in the app - look at the update notes from LPX onwards - but it's not really gaining in consistency - if anything, it looks like they are building new stuff to gradually take the place of the old stuff which will eventually disappear - I can't see the ES1, EXS24, Ultrabeat, Sculpture, the environment window and audio layers staying like they are now - I can't believe modern Apple is hugely proud of how those things look and work in a modern Apple app, cool as they are.

 

Anyway, it's great they continue to invest in Logic, and it *is* getting better all the time. But wow, Logic really does seem to have 50% of it's development effort on technology transitions, and the other 50% on improving it. And just when we think the big transitions are over, along comes another one...!

[Arnaud]

ha! i almost-exclusively use 3rd party plugins (i use the EXS24, a delay or 2, and that's about it)... and all is well here. the only weird stuff is from logic itself... & some of it's been happening since 10.2 (ie the 'jump-to-the-top of the arrange window thing' when option-dragging regions).

Same question I asked the other user: what makes you use almost-exclusively 3rd party plugins? "They sound better" is not a valid answer  

I don't use almost-exclusively 3rd-party plugins, but I do use some.

* They sound better is definitely a valid answer to me (I'm not joking). My first big venture into the "outer" world was when I found out that I definitely could not master on my own (given my own limitations as well as what stock plugins do offer) to any decent result, and could achieve that with some 3rd-party stuff so much more quickly and to so a better result...

* Some achieve things that stock plugins can't, or so awkwardly that it's not worth mentioning. One example is true dynamic EQs (e.g. the equivalent to a Channel EQ where any, several or all of the nodes may have their gain and Q vary - independently from one another - depending on the material going through it - or depending on sidechained material).

80 to 90% of the plugins I instantiate are still stock ones, but the remaining 10-20% is vital to my work and the sound I get to.

[musos]

First time of my life I have to go to the hospital, for a surgery, and that's the moment when Apple updates Logic...

 

I'm dying to find out the new features. But I guess the best thing for me already is: Expanded color palette

Don't get too excited...it's just an extra row with different tones of the same colors. Still no user-definable palette like in days gone by.

Good luck with the surgery!

[kiotozane]

Hey guys, super update! And interesting discussion! For me, I've actually found the GUI of creative software an important influence on how I compose, develop, produce content. Not as important as sound quality (first) and navigational / compositional / production-based tools (second), but highly influential on my workflow and "sense" of the material (third), which again does influence my production, and my sound. 

 

For example, moving from trackers (music is produced in a vertical flow, with coded commands) to sequencers (music is produced horizontically, with graphical elements) was a big paradigm shift in my production, but it took me a few years to realize this. I'm now much more aware how the different tools I'm working with is proactively influencing my production choices - sometimes for good, sometimes for bad. The recent messy behaviour of random piano roll editor with appearant disconnected zooming and bad linking was driving me mad, constantly having to re-set and re-balance views. I sometimes avoided complex editing in piano roll because it was so frustrating. This update with correctly behaving autozooms is a godsend for me, I now feel a direct, responsive and thrustworthy connection to regions when editing them, one extra step of navigation is removed from my compositional process. 

 

But maybe I made better music when I wasn't doing complex editing Who knows! The point is; for me, the GUI (and its problems) was influencing my production.

 

Another example is the instant graphical responsiveness of Logic 4 (and 5?) on the windows platform back when I was working there. Operations and GUI was responding instantly. No OSX version has ever come close to the same responsiveness. I've adapted, and am okay now, but I miss this responsiveness like crazy. I am by nature working a lot faster than the current GUI can keep up with. Its not a strong feeling, but but I always have this tiny feeling like I'm *waiting* for LPX, its not producing WITH me, its producing FOR me. Its a super subtle thing, but I really miss instant GUI responsiveness.   

 

In this regards I really appreciate the dialogue and conversation about GUI as an important aspect of Logic updates, I enjoy reading people's opinions. I totally get that the look of software might not feel important, but IMO it does influence us, sometimes obviously, sometimes subconsciously, and having conversation about it is interesting. Especially since I think for a lot of us, our skills are growing, computers are becoming more powerful, we're having to deal with bigger and bigger arrangements. How do we figure out how to deal with more and more information in our projects? Its gonna be super interesting to see how music software grows to deal with this. The recent GUI and arrangement updates are good steps towards helping us I think? 

 

I'm still on the fence when it comes to this facelift... I think the general organisation of the GUI has improved, it feels clearer somehow, but I'm a bit skeptical to the palette, I liked the darker previous version, but thats just a preference. My only puzzlement is why we're still not allowed to select black, white and shades between for arrange objects. The "24 new colors!" is a bit of an overstatement, its just new shades of the exisiting ones

 

Of other GUI / arrangement updates I'm superbly in love with the new Track Alternatives, helps massively with sketching and prototyping musical ideas (was doing this with endless hidden duplicate tracks before, now it feels like the app is actually working with me on keeping "notes", instead of me "hacking" the app to do this). And the region editing that ghosts the trimmed audio / MIDI is really nice, I was always unsure of length of long notes in trimmed regions, now I can see them! (Though my favorite new toys are that MIDI processing can now modulate ANY plugin parameter, wow, the sound design possibilities, and Selection Based Processing (with the "repeat previous process" command!!!)), my god this is great, didn't expect that!)) Practically I think autozoom really works well now, phew, and the display of note info on the notes in piano roll is great, for me coming from a tracker background more than a classical compositional background. (Totally get that it makes no sense for others though.) 

 

In general, this just feels like "really good craftmanship" update, it feels like the people developing Logic is really smart about where they're taking the app, I'm super happy for it, and loving this conversation about it!

 

 

Edited January 25, 2017 by kiotozane

[itssofly]

Hey guys, super update! And interesting discussion! For me, I've actually found the GUI of creative software an important influence on how I compose, develop, produce content. Not as important as sound quality (first) and navigational / compositional / production-based tools (second), but highly influential on my workflow and "sense" of the material (third), which again does influence my production, and my sound. 

 

For example, moving from trackers (music is produced in a vertical flow, with coded commands) to sequencers (music is produced vertically, with graphical elements) was a big paradigm shift in my production, but it took me a few years to realize this. I'm now much more aware how the different tools I'm working with is proactively influencing my production choices - sometimes for good, sometimes for bad. The recent messy behaviour of random piano roll editor with appearant disconnected zooming and bad linking was driving me mad, constantly having to re-set and re-balance views. I sometimes avoided complex editing in piano roll because it was so frustrating. This update with correctly behaving autozooms is a godsend for me, I now feel a direct, responsive and thrustworthy connection to regions when editing them, one extra step of navigation is removed from my compositional process. 

 

But maybe I made better music when I wasn't doing complex editing Who knows! The point is; for me, the GUI (and its problems) was influencing my production.

 

Another example is the instant graphical responsiveness of Logic 4 (and 5?) on the windows platform back when I was working there. Operations and GUI was responding instantly. No OSX version has ever come close to the same responsiveness. I've adapted, and am okay now, but I miss this responsiveness like crazy. I am by nature working a lot faster than the current GUI can keep up with. Its not a strong feeling, but but I always have this tiny feeling like I'm *waiting* for LPX, its not producing WITH me, its producing FOR me. Its a super subtle thing, but I really miss instant GUI responsiveness.   

 

In this regards I really appreciate the dialogue and conversation about GUI as an important aspect of Logic updates, I enjoy reading people's opinions. I totally get that the look of software might not feel important, but IMO it does influence us, sometimes obviously, sometimes subconsciously, and having conversation about it is interesting. Especially since I think for a lot of us, our skills are growing, computers are becoming more powerful, we're having to deal with bigger and bigger arrangements. How do we figure out how to deal with more and more information in our projects? Its gonna be super interesting to see how music software grows to deal with this. The recent GUI and arrangement updates are good steps towards helping us I think? 

 

I'm still on the fence when it comes to this facelift... I think the general organisation of the GUI has improved, it feels clearer somehow, but I'm a bit skeptical to the palette, I liked the darker previous version, but thats just a preference. My only puzzlement is why we're still not allowed to select black, white and shades between for arrange objects. The "24 new colors!" is a bit of an overstatement, its just new shades of the exisiting ones

 

Of other GUI / arrangement updates I'm superbly in love with the new Track Alternatives, helps massively with sketching and prototyping musical ideas (was doing this with endless hidden duplicate tracks before, now it feels like the app is actually working with me on keeping "notes", instead of me "hacking" the app to do this). And the region editing that ghosts the trimmed audio / MIDI is really nice, I was always unsure of length of long notes in trimmed regions, now I can see them! (Though my favorite new toys are the Selection Based Processing (with the "repeat previous process" command!!!)), my god this is great, didn't expect that!!! I think autozoom really works well now, phew, and the display of note info on the notes in piano roll is great, for me coming from a tracker background more than a classical compositional background. (Totally get that it makes no sense for others though.)

 

In general, this just feels like "really good craftmanship" update, it feels like the people developing Logic is really smart about where they're taking the app, I'm super happy for it, and loving this conversation about it!

 

 

Logic gets better with each new update. Manny improvements Logic is on the right way. But Logic can better. like EXS24 is from the Stone Age, If you compare the Logic sampler with Ableton sampler then the sampler from Ableton is better. 

[Arnaud]

@kiotozane: Very interesting insight. I share your view that the GUI influences creativity. Funnily, after having originally worked for a long time in other DAWs, since I moved to Logic (7, at that time), I've always felt "comfortable" or "at home" in Logic, it feeds my inspiration (more than other DAWs did). This may be linked to the general organization of the DAW as much as its GUI per se. To stick with the more recent versions, I felt at home in Logic 9 and though moving to LPX felt like a major deep dive into a new thing (with the risks attached to that), well, I very quickly felt at home there too, with the feeling that this dark GUI is quite nice and I enjoy it. Now 10.3 comes with a lighter and flat environment and funnily I feel at home there too, with a kind of first impression that I'm gonna like it and it will fuel my inspiration. Writing this might be viewed as defeating your point (after all, if I keep feeling at home while the GUI changes massively, then does really the GUI have an influence?), but to me that's not the case (mostly when I compare with how I felt in other DAWs), it just means that, while Apple's dev team keep changing things (with the attraction of novelty), so far they've not hurt my inspiration, rather refueled it, and that's all that matters to me (from the perspective of that discussion).

[gaiarec]

Hi guys, nice update IMHO. Graphic performance seems to be slightly better. But I have a serious problem with the SOLO function. When I load a project everything works fine, fast... but after a while to solo any track takes like 2-3 seconds, never happened before in 10.2. Anyone with this problem???

sounds similar to the problem i was having at first: i'd get a short beachball for about 3-5 of the first actions i performed in 10.3. the advice given to me (and worth a try); save the file in 10.3, then re-open it. see if that helps...

Sorry but it didn't work. Going back to 10.2 for now ((

[3ple]

It seems to me that in this era a whole lot of people are more concerned with how things look than how they sound. I have been using music software since 1990 and the look of them has constantly changed and never mattered all that much to me or affected how good or not good my music came out.

I think you're misunderstanding the whole point of people "complaining" about how things look. It doesn't change the sound, but it changes how you feel when you work. It's not me saying it, it's years and years of studies in different areas. That's why you have teams of marketing working for companies and even psychologists sometimes. For some reason, beautiful studios located in beautiful areas, have a way better vibe (to most people, of course, especially for those who work there), than a living room studio, cluttered with your kids toys and a big mess, right? The same goes to software and DAWs. Of course you mix with your ears and at the end of the day, it's all about the sound, sure. I totally agree with you. That's why 80% of the time I spend mixing, I have my eyes closed. I don't care about the looks, the levels, the numbers. If it sounds good, it sounds good.

Now it doesn't change the fact that we, as beings that have eyes and are affected by what we see, aren't happy or sad with the way Logic or a certain plugin looks like. Not sure if you ever read about this, but if not, here it goes: different colors affect us in different ways and that's why certain brands use certain colors on their logos. So for example if you open a plugin that's all white, black and their shades, will cause you a different feeling than if it was the same plugin all in red and more aggressive to the eyes. Again, it's not about how looks affect the sound, but it's how the looks affect you, your mood and your disposition to work, feel motivated and by consequence, get a better sound

[3ple]

sounds similar to the problem i was having at first: i'd get a short beachball for about 3-5 of the first actions i performed in 10.3. the advice given to me (and worth a try); save the file in 10.3, then re-open it. see if that helps...

Sorry but it didn't work. Going back to 10.2 for now ((

I don't experience that. Actually, the only bugs I've been experiencing are just related to the software and it's stuff that everyone is experiencing. My suggestion, as I always do, is to remove all your 3rd party plugins from your Components folder (maybe to the Desktop), open Logic and then try it again. See if it behaves the same way. If it doesn't, it's definitely a 3rd party plugin. If that's the case, close Logic, pick the 1st half of those plugins on your desktop and put them back in your Components and restart Logic. Do the same thing: work for a little bit and see what happens. If nothing happens, you know it's the second half that's causing the problem. If not, then it's the group of plugins you just put back. "Filter" it until you find the plugin that's causing the problem. Hope it makes sense and helps you in any way

[3ple]

Hey guys, super update! And interesting discussion! For me, I've actually found the GUI of creative software an important influence on how I compose, develop, produce content. Not as important as sound quality (first) and navigational / compositional / production-based tools (second), but highly influential on my workflow and "sense" of the material (third), which again does influence my production, and my sound. 

 

For example, moving from trackers (music is produced in a vertical flow, with coded commands) to sequencers (music is produced vertically, with graphical elements) was a big paradigm shift in my production, but it took me a few years to realize this. I'm now much more aware how the different tools I'm working with is proactively influencing my production choices - sometimes for good, sometimes for bad. The recent messy behaviour of random piano roll editor with appearant disconnected zooming and bad linking was driving me mad, constantly having to re-set and re-balance views. I sometimes avoided complex editing in piano roll because it was so frustrating. This update with correctly behaving autozooms is a godsend for me, I now feel a direct, responsive and thrustworthy connection to regions when editing them, one extra step of navigation is removed from my compositional process. 

 

But maybe I made better music when I wasn't doing complex editing Who knows! The point is; for me, the GUI (and its problems) was influencing my production.

 

Another example is the instant graphical responsiveness of Logic 4 (and 5?) on the windows platform back when I was working there. Operations and GUI was responding instantly. No OSX version has ever come close to the same responsiveness. I've adapted, and am okay now, but I miss this responsiveness like crazy. I am by nature working a lot faster than the current GUI can keep up with. Its not a strong feeling, but but I always have this tiny feeling like I'm *waiting* for LPX, its not producing WITH me, its producing FOR me. Its a super subtle thing, but I really miss instant GUI responsiveness.   

 

In this regards I really appreciate the dialogue and conversation about GUI as an important aspect of Logic updates, I enjoy reading people's opinions. I totally get that the look of software might not feel important, but IMO it does influence us, sometimes obviously, sometimes subconsciously, and having conversation about it is interesting. Especially since I think for a lot of us, our skills are growing, computers are becoming more powerful, we're having to deal with bigger and bigger arrangements. How do we figure out how to deal with more and more information in our projects? Its gonna be super interesting to see how music software grows to deal with this. The recent GUI and arrangement updates are good steps towards helping us I think? 

 

I'm still on the fence when it comes to this facelift... I think the general organisation of the GUI has improved, it feels clearer somehow, but I'm a bit skeptical to the palette, I liked the darker previous version, but thats just a preference. My only puzzlement is why we're still not allowed to select black, white and shades between for arrange objects. The "24 new colors!" is a bit of an overstatement, its just new shades of the exisiting ones

 

Of other GUI / arrangement updates I'm superbly in love with the new Track Alternatives, helps massively with sketching and prototyping musical ideas (was doing this with endless hidden duplicate tracks before, now it feels like the app is actually working with me on keeping "notes", instead of me "hacking" the app to do this). And the region editing that ghosts the trimmed audio / MIDI is really nice, I was always unsure of length of long notes in trimmed regions, now I can see them! (Though my favorite new toys are the Selection Based Processing (with the "repeat previous process" command!!!)), my god this is great, didn't expect that!!! I think autozoom really works well now, phew, and the display of note info on the notes in piano roll is great, for me coming from a tracker background more than a classical compositional background. (Totally get that it makes no sense for others though.)

 

In general, this just feels like "really good craftmanship" update, it feels like the people developing Logic is really smart about where they're taking the app, I'm super happy for it, and loving this conversation about it!

 

 

Logic gets better with each new update. Manny improvements Logic is on the right way. But Logic can better. like EXS24 is from the Stone Age, If you compare the Logic sampler with Ableton sampler then the sampler from Ableton is better. 

At this point I feel EXS24, Ultrabeat and all the other synths should follow Alchemy with its flat and modern look. I gotta be honest: Ableton's plugins always looked too "childish for me" especially the Sampler. But that's my opinion, of course. I like when things look simple to the eyes, but still "complex" to work with. Does it make any sense? haha

I love the new GUI, especially the icons that now look better. What most people don't understand is that, the simpler the GUI is and relying more and more on just code instead of images in order to create the graphics, the less Logic has to process, so it saves that CPU usage to use it on what really matters: processing music That's the same reason why most websites are now pure CSS and HTML (geek talk aleeeeeert lol). It makes them load faster. That's what people want

[3ple]

Same question I asked the other user: what makes you use almost-exclusively 3rd party plugins? "They sound better" is not a valid answer  

I don't use almost-exclusively 3rd-party plugins, but I do use some.

* They sound better is definitely a valid answer to me (I'm not joking). My first big venture into the "outer" world was when I found out that I definitely could not master on my own (given my own limitations as well as what stock plugins do offer) to any decent result, and could achieve that with some 3rd-party stuff so much more quickly and to so a better result...

* Some achieve things that stock plugins can't, or so awkwardly that it's not worth mentioning. One example is true dynamic EQs (e.g. the equivalent to a Channel EQ where any, several or all of the nodes may have their gain and Q vary - independently from one another - depending on the material going through it - or depending on sidechained material).

80 to 90% of the plugins I instantiate are still stock ones, but the remaining 10-20% is vital to my work and the sound I get to.

When I said "they sound better" is not a valid answer, was just because if you were, for example, trying to sell me any of those 3rd party plugins, you can't just say "they sound better", because that's subjective. They might sound better for you, to your music, to your ears, but maybe they sound as good as the ones I use from Logic. So basically I just wanted to know, apart from "they sound better", what makes you use them, like for example when you mentioned Dynamic EQ. That's a valid answer to me, because that's the feature, not the sound. A feature can be more objective than the sound, if that makes sense. I can easily convince someone that a certain feature is "better" for their workflow, more than convincing them that something sounds "better". You know what I mean?

But as a said before, whatever works for each one of us, it's what matter. It's all about making great music. At the end of the day, even great producers and engineers, musicians, etc, we all experience music as a whole (even when we pay some attention to details). If I play you one of my songs, you will not know what EQ or compressor or synth I used and that's the beauty of music. It's about sound, all combined together, to come up with a beautiful masterpiece

[anp27]

* Some achieve things that stock plugins can't, or so awkwardly that it's not worth mentioning. One example is true dynamic EQs (e.g. the equivalent to a Channel EQ where any, several or all of the nodes may have their gain and Q vary - independently from one another - depending on the material going through it - or depending on sidechained material).

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=25036#p661034

[3ple]

* Some achieve things that stock plugins can't, or so awkwardly that it's not worth mentioning. One example is true dynamic EQs (e.g. the equivalent to a Channel EQ where any, several or all of the nodes may have their gain and Q vary - independently from one another - depending on the material going through it - or depending on sidechained material).

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=25036#p661034

Thanks for baking up my idea by sharing that I use the filter on the compressor quite often and I love it. I even use it as a Deesser as well. This just proves most people don't know what they have when they work with Logic and they spend money on 3rd party plugins (or torrent them, whatever) just because they are "supposed" to be better than stock plugins. It's not the equipment, it's what you do with it and how well you know it inside out.

[anp27]

Thanks for baking up my idea by sharing that I use the filter on the compressor quite often and I love it. I even use it as a Deesser as well. This just proves most people don't know what they have when they work with Logic and they spend money on 3rd party plugins (or torrent them, whatever) just because they are "supposed" to be better than stock plugins. It's not the equipment, it's what you do with it and how well you know it inside out.

Sure! I'm actually taking the whole concept of "working with what you have" to the extreme. I'm treating my secondary laptop as testing ground for my experiment; would I be able to make solid tracks using ONLY the built in instruments and plugins? Plugins I could probably get away with, but how about instruments? Okay, we have Alchemy built in now which is insanely great. What about drums? Do the Logic drums stand up to something like say Addictive Drummer? If not, is there anything I can do in terms of processing to make it so? I guess there's no helping the built in Logic strings to make them sound like something from 8Dio, but is that really so? I don't do heavy orchestral mock ups or anything that requires heavy orchestral work. Could I get away with the built in Logic stuff then? I think it's a really fun idea and I'm curious to see what I can come up with. 

[3ple]

Thanks for baking up my idea by sharing that I use the filter on the compressor quite often and I love it. I even use it as a Deesser as well. This just proves most people don't know what they have when they work with Logic and they spend money on 3rd party plugins (or torrent them, whatever) just because they are "supposed" to be better than stock plugins. It's not the equipment, it's what you do with it and how well you know it inside out.

Sure! I'm actually taking the whole concept of "working with what you have" to the extreme. I'm treating my secondary laptop as testing ground for my experiment; would I be able to make solid tracks using ONLY the built in instruments and plugins? Plugins I could probably get away with, but how about instruments? Okay, we have Alchemy built in now which is insanely great. What about drums? Do the Logic drums stand up to something like say Addictive Drummer? If not, is there anything I can do in terms of processing to make it so? I guess there's no helping the built in Logic strings to make them sound like something from 8Dio, but is that really so? I don't do heavy orchestral mock ups or anything that requires heavy orchestral work. Could I get away with the built in Logic stuff then? I think it's a really fun idea and I'm curious to see what I can come up with. 

My answer to pretty much all your questions is YES! Now, of course, it depends on what you're trying to achieve, as you said about the orchestral work. Do the strings that come with Logic sound good enough to sound real enough? Definitely. The same with drums. The Drum Kit Designer is great (and I'm telling you this from a drummer's perspective who's been playing drums for 25 years). All you gotta do is understand what a drummer does, all the dynamics and "tricks" to make it sound real. But the sound is great. It wasn't in Logic 9 without Drum Kit Designer, but now it is.

Alchemy is a beast. Once you understand the whole concept, all modulation and create your own tricks, I can say you don't need anything else. And let's be honest, as soon as you put a distortion plugin after a synth, some modulation, etc, it's a new sound so all you gotta do is being creative. And there's nothing more exciting for me than being creative. I think the big problem right now is that people get "spoiled" with plugins that make all the work for them. "Oh I put plugin XYZ and suddenly my music sounds great". Hmmm wasn't your music supposed to sound great "before" the plugin?  

But I started approaching my music the same way you are now, like 2 years ago when I decided I had too much stuff and that would take my focus away from being creative. So I deleted all plugins I didn't need and recently I decided to delete the last 2. After that, I will only have Logic's synths. One thing I do is sampling other synths. Get a demo of a synth, sample all notes of sounds you like and import them into EXS24 or Alchemy

[anp27]

My answer to pretty much all your questions is YES! Now, of course, it depends on what you're trying to achieve, as you said about the orchestral work. Do the strings that come with Logic sound good enough to sound real enough? Definitely. The same with drums. The Drum Kit Designer is great (and I'm telling you this from a drummer's perspective who's been playing drums for 25 years). All you gotta do is understand what a drummer does, all the dynamics and "tricks" to make it sound real. But the sound is great. It wasn't in Logic 9 without Drum Kit Designer, but now it is.

Cool man, I'm a drummer myself, been playing professionally for 16 years now. The issue I have with the Logic drums are the samples themselves... when I compare them to Addictive Drums or Abbey Road Drums they don't sound as great... but maybe I need to look into the processing a whole lot more.. 

I'm pretty convinced by now that Alchemy is killer and I could probably let go of my paid third party options, Serum, Iris 2 and Sylenth. But Omnisphere 2? Synplant? Those are just too precious to me.. It's so hard!  And I don't think I could part with my Soundtoys bundle either. I could probably let go of my iZotope Music Production Bundle 2, but not Soundtoys 5 I don't think.