jonparadise Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 This has been a long time problem for me and it's still happening with 10.3.2. Occasionally, when I save or rename a project, or change audio buffer settings, several Kontakt instances will 'empty'. Kontakt is still active on the track, but any instruments I had loaded in it will be gone. I've never found a method in the madness, which Kontakt instrument are lost appears to be quite random. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
des99 Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 I've never experienced this in many years of using Logic & Kontakt. What Kontakt version are you running? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonparadise Posted July 25, 2017 Author Share Posted July 25, 2017 It's been happening to me for about 3 years, through all the recent version of of Logic and Kontakt, right up to the latest releases. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
des99 Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 Can you try and lock down the behaviour a bit more - eg, does it only happen to certain instruments, what exactly triggers it, is it only when using multi-output instances, where are the samples/instruments being referenced from and so on? Dos it do it from clean, empty templates, or only in your own templates/existing projects? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonparadise Posted July 25, 2017 Author Share Posted July 25, 2017 It usually happens in new projects, often when I save for the first time, but it has happened at other times too, mainly when renaming the project. The instruments are also random, it happens to any of my libraries from different developers, all my samples are stored on the same external thunderbolt drive. Today is was some strings from Spitfire, yesterday it was some guitars from Heavyocity. It's happened whether I use a fresh blank project or template. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
des99 Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 Hmm. Given when it happens, I'm wondering if this has something to do with when you save or rename, Logic is trying to do some asset management, like move some used samples, or instruments or something to the new project directory (and perhaps failing). Wha are your project asset settings? Try turning them all off, and seeing whether this has any affect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonparadise Posted July 26, 2017 Author Share Posted July 26, 2017 I have: Copy audio files into project Convert audio file sample rate when importing Copy Alchemy audio data in project ..all selected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oscwilde Posted July 26, 2017 Share Posted July 26, 2017 Do you use the Kontakt Memory Server? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonparadise Posted July 26, 2017 Author Share Posted July 26, 2017 No I don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oscwilde Posted July 27, 2017 Share Posted July 27, 2017 Hmmmm.... It "could" be related to this weirdness with EXS 3rd-party libraries going AWOL: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=132440 From the thread, this seems like a broader OS-level thing with Spotlight, which Logic leverages for search functionality. Similarly, Logic uses the OS for file handling...and Sierra has the new file system - although that doesn't explain why this has been happening over the years for you with preceding file systems. It may also be an issue with linking to an external drive. While a PITA, it might be worth checking to see if behaviour is different when Kontakt libraries on an internal drive are used. It may also be something in Kontakt itself. I'd presume the Kontakt databases are all cool, but try a rescan anyway using the standalone version of Kontakt. Reopen a problem project in Logic, then try a rename and see if there's any change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atlas007 Posted July 27, 2017 Share Posted July 27, 2017 When using Kontakt instrument, have you tried the following steps: Save the instrument(s) setup in Kontakt as a Kontakt user preset Then, Save that Kontakt user preset also as a Logic AUpreset (facultative) Then, Save the AUpreset as part of a Logic patche or channelstrip setting Not sure, but I think the problem lies in Kontakt's way of dealing with its libraries... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonparadise Posted July 27, 2017 Author Share Posted July 27, 2017 Oscwilde, all of my libraries are on an external thunderbolt drive, but I'll keep an eye out now to see if it's any particular ones that 'unload' the most. When using Kontakt instrument, have you tried the following steps: Save the instrument(s) setup in Kontakt as a Kontakt user preset Then, Save that Kontakt user preset also as a Logic AUpreset (facultative) Then, Save the AUpreset as part of a Logic patche or channelstrip setting Not sure, but I think the problem lies in Kontakt's way of dealing with its libraries... Funnily enough I used to save presets in that way for a while, but encountered similar issues. The first being that some presets would load an empty instance of Kontakt, the second being that on first project save, I would lose all of the track names. So I gave up on that method! It's only ever Kontakt that this has happened with. It's definitely linked to the process involved when Logic 'reloads' on save. The behaviour when changing buffer size or renaming the project is the same, it's that moment when Logic reloads all of the instruments after a buffer/name change that seems to be when it happens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oscwilde Posted July 27, 2017 Share Posted July 27, 2017 It's definitely linked to the process involved when Logic 'reloads' on save. The behaviour when changing buffer size or renaming the project is the same, it's that moment when Logic reloads all of the instruments after a buffer/name change that seems to be when it happens. Interesting... I'll check this out on my systems to see if I can replicate/figure out if there's a workaround in either Logic or Kontakt prefs. This might not be until tomorrow...but you've been been dealing with it for three years, so an extra day won't hurt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonparadise Posted July 27, 2017 Author Share Posted July 27, 2017 Cheers oscarwilde, much appreciated! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
des99 Posted July 27, 2017 Share Posted July 27, 2017 Following on from an earlier hunch (and the clue that this happens often on an initial save or rename which made me think to the asset management), there is a curious behaviour I see: With just Kontakt and some library loaded, if I do a regular save or save as with all the Logic asset management turned off, Kontakt barely blinks when Logic comes back - ie, it doesn't reload the loaded library - *but*, if "Save EXS instruments and samples" is checked, Kontakt *does* seem to reload the library from scratch (odd, because the EXS/samples behaviour should not have anything to do with Kontakt as such - maybe Logic is refreshing plugins with some kind of "sample content might have changed, refresh yourselves" command, that Kontakt also responds to?). I can't replicate the behaviour you see yet, I'm just reporting on some interesting behaviour I noticed as everyone tries to track this down... So I'm wondering in your case if something happens during this save process and when Kontakt reloads the library, it's somehow failing, or forgetting the path, or being redirected elsewhere where it can no longer find the library... again, just following hunches at this stage to see where we get to... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonparadise Posted July 27, 2017 Author Share Posted July 27, 2017 Interesting stuff, thanks des99! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oscwilde Posted July 28, 2017 Share Posted July 28, 2017 Checked on both machines and couldn't replicate. I tried several 3rd-party libraries. I'm wondering if perhaps it's something to do with the drive state when you save? By default, external drives will sleep after a few minutes of inactivity....so it's possible your sample/other external drives have nodded off when you save/change buffer sizes on some days...but are still spinning on other days - hence the inconsistent behaviour? The Mac Power Save functions don't always work for external drives...so changing these prefs may not help for SOME external drives - try this first...and if you have no joy, and your sample drive still sleeps after 5 minutes or so.... There's a utility called Keep Drive Spinning that does what it says on the tin. Maybe give it a shot? https://www.macupdate.com/app/mac/31158/keep-drive-spinning Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonparadise Posted July 28, 2017 Author Share Posted July 28, 2017 Thanks for checking oscwilde. In many ways it's good that you can't replicate it, as it means it must be a wrinkle in my system that can hopefully be fixed. I just checked and I had 'put hard disks to sleep when possible' checked, I've no idea if this would affect an external drive, but I've unchecked it anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maceasy Posted July 28, 2017 Share Posted July 28, 2017 I would try moving a trial kontakt sample lib to your main hd, off the thunderbolt drive. Maybe even a small one. If you keep loading this one, and muting if necessary with your other banks, then when it next happens, it might be instructive to see if that particular one reloads. If it does, then you know it is a problem with the external HD communication, which is what it sounds like. Or alternatively, check the save sample instruments box in your project and see if that fixes it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
des99 Posted July 28, 2017 Share Posted July 28, 2017 While I do think it's likely some kind of wrinkle in your system, I'm not convinced it's tied to sleeping drives (though, of course, anything is possible and it's wise to investigate in these things). My libraries are also on a drive that sleeps regularly, and all that happens when the OS requires some file access on that drive is it has to wait while the drive spins back up. I've *never* had any instances where the OS wants file access from the sleeping drive and fails because the drive didn't respond fast enough. The OS simply waits for it (and makes *me* wait for it!). It would be useful to see if the behaviour is only happening on Kontakt patches or sample that only come from a particular drive (eg as macasy sas above, take some trial instruments/samples and try to see the behaviour when they are on the system drive, your sample drive, or other drives - does it happen regardless of where the Kontakt stuff is located, or dos it only happen on one drive?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maceasy Posted July 28, 2017 Share Posted July 28, 2017 Just as a precaution, might be worth trashing Kontakt and Logic preferences, in case either has become corrupt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonparadise Posted July 28, 2017 Author Share Posted July 28, 2017 Funnily enough it happened again today. In the case it was quite severe, and caused by a hard crash by Steinberg Padshop. A backup had been saved, but around 50% of the Kontakt instances (around 5 tracks) were empty on reload. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
des99 Posted July 28, 2017 Share Posted July 28, 2017 It would be interesting to know whether the Kontakts had been *cleared" in the saved files (ie, the saved projects no longer have the correct Kontakt instruments loaded, of if they were intact when saved, but it was only on *re-loading* the project that the loading is failing, leaving the Kontakts blank. Have you tried contacting NI support, out of interest? They might have heard of this issue before... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maceasy Posted July 28, 2017 Share Posted July 28, 2017 The other to thing to try is batch resaving in Kontakt. That usually fixes any Kontakt issues with sample paths. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonparadise Posted July 29, 2017 Author Share Posted July 29, 2017 I batch resave as soon as I install a new library, so hopefully all that should be in order. Good idea about contacting NI, it's clearly an issue with Kontakt alone, so maybe they'll already have a solution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oscwilde Posted August 1, 2017 Share Posted August 1, 2017 Just checking in to see if you've heard back from NI? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonparadise Posted August 1, 2017 Author Share Posted August 1, 2017 Nothing yet oscwilde, I'll update the thread when they get back to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maceasy Posted August 1, 2017 Share Posted August 1, 2017 Did you try to see if the problem is replicated with a sample lib on your internal hd? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonparadise Posted August 1, 2017 Author Share Posted August 1, 2017 Did you try to see if the problem is replicated with a sample lib on your internal hd? Unfortunately that's a bit tricky, as the results tend to be random anyway, even on my external drive sometimes they work, sometimes they don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maceasy Posted August 1, 2017 Share Posted August 1, 2017 Well they should always work, as they do here from various drives. The only consistent feature I can see in your description is the external drive. So that would be my first port of call in troubleshooting the issue. And the only way you can do that is do some trials with a different drive and/or connection. If you know how to provoke the problem, then even better for testing purposes. If it's not happening to other people then you need to eliminate as many possibilities as you can. NI will probably tell you the same. I would have thought you could test it with some relatively small libs, duplicated on both drives, to compare each performance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.