Anyone mixing in Spatial Audio/Dolby Atmos?

[Rufuss Sewell]

I’m diving in to mixing in Spatial Audio and running into all kinds of issues. Mainly with head tracking. 

My speaker system is 5.1. No issues mixing with Atmos plugin and monitor format set to 5.1. 

As I explained in a different thread, Apple Render (with Head Tracking) is greyed out even when monitoring with Airpods Pro. This is apparently a bug since I called Apple’s Logic support and they couldn't get it to work either. 

Besides that, if I bounce using the Apple Renderer the mix plays back in binaural not head tracking. 

Have any of you guys had success actually making a surround mix that plays back in surround in Apple Music?

[Dewdman42]

I'm just starting to dabble now, so I can't claim real expertise...but I don't plan to mess around with head tracking.

My understanding about Apple Music is that you can submit your stuff to them as either Apple's Spacial Audio or as Atmos...  I'm not sure how they take the submissions, whether you have to create the MP4 yourself or they do it from an ADM file...I would hope the latter since you have to buy a more expensive Dolby product to be able to produce the final MP4.  But anyway...That's about all I know.

 

[Rufuss Sewell]

Head tracking is the only real way to get surround audio from headphones. They should have marketed it as augmented reality audio since that’s more accurate. It doesn’t matter that it tracks your head. What matters is that a track stays in one place in your room no matter where your head happens to be. 

It’s really great tech and as we move into AR entertainment it will be the way all audio is mixed, so I’m diving in now. 

Unfortunately I seem to be the only one haha. 

[Dewdman42]

 

18 minutes ago, Rufuss Sewell said:

Head tracking is the only real way to get surround audio from headphones.

 

no, if that were true then headphones wouldn't be considered true stereo without head tracking either.  

Head tracking means you can move your head and the impression of the audio will always be like its coming from the direction of your computer monitor.  You can still definitely have the same experience whenever you are facing the computer monitor without using any head tracking.  

What you are wanting is a way to experiment with VR applications...allowing a user to move their head around while the audio stays fixed in one place.  That is definitely needed for VR and gaming...but not needed at all for Surround cinema, surround music and  many other situations.

Binaural monitoring is how you can get 2D and 3D experience in your headphones.

There are also some head tracking plugins and features available to work in conjunction with headphones and surround mixing, but I don't have any experience with them and it wouldn't surprise me if the one built into LogicPro is just so so.

 

Edited August 14, 2022 by Dewdman42

[Rufuss Sewell]

4 hours ago, Dewdman42 said:

no, head tracking means you can move your head and the impression of the audio will always be like its coming from the direction of your computer monitor.  You can still definitely have the same experience whenever you are facing the computer monitor without using any head tracking.

Binaural monitoring is how you can get 2D and 3D experience in your headphones.

This perception is why the marketing has failed. 

Your computer is an anchor per se, but the objects move around your room. If you place an object behind your head in the mix then turn around in your chair then the object will be in front of you. 

Objects stay where you put them in the room (relative to your computer or phone) regardless of where you are. Just like if that object was really in the room with you. 

With binaural the objects move when you move your head and thus it’s not a good replication of  true surround sound. 

Head tracking is the only way to have an object sit still in the room while you move. 

[Dewdman42]

if that were true, then it would also be true to say that headphones do not offer true stereo either.

(shrug)

If your interest is VR gaming and such then I agree, look into third party head tracking if Logic's is not meeting your expectations.  They are out there already.  But its not true to say that surround mixing can't be done in headphones.  It can.

 

Edited August 14, 2022 by Dewdman42

[Dewdman42]

Also bear in mind that LogicPro is intended as a production platform, not a consumer playback platform.  Headtracking is really more of a playback feature, more so then an essential production feature.  You produce a surround mix (or stereo for that matter) with or without head tracking.  Play it back on a system with head tracking and you'll have your VR experience.

 

[Rufuss Sewell]

Obviously headphones offer true stereo since there are two speakers that each contain a different mix. 

But spatial audio in headphones without head tracking is still stereo, not surround. It just has some psychoacoustic effects to kind of give the illusion of space. With head tracking you get true surround where the actual mix in each speaker changes when you move around the room. This is true surround. 

My interest is not VR gaming. It’s 3D music mixing where a track (object) is placed in your room. For example a piano player can be directly in front of you and a violinist in back. When you turn around the pianist is now in back of you and the violinist is in front. Just like if those people were in the room playing with you. Or you could make a mix sound like you are at an arena concert, or you are standing inside an orchestra pit. The creativity of your space is up to you. 

It’s not that Logic’s head tracking is not meeting my expectations. That’s exactly how Logic’s implementation works and it sounds amazing.

Logic and Airpods Pro offer this tech right now but there seems to be a bug in my system that is making it so I can’t monitor the mix live. The option is there but greyed out. Logic’s support team has confirmed to me that it’s a bug. 

I hope all of that makes sense. 

The point of this thread is to see if others are having the same issue so we can try to suss out a solution. 

I’m also not getting my bounced track to play back with head tracking in Apple Music although I suspect that’s user error. 

[Dewdman42]

15 minutes ago, Rufuss Sewell said:

Obviously headphones offer true stereo since there are two speakers that each contain a different mix. 

 

That is a separate question from that of head tracking.

 

15 minutes ago, Rufuss Sewell said:

But spatial audio in headphones without head tracking is still stereo, not surround. It just has some psychoacoustic effects to kind of give the illusion of space. With head tracking you get true surround where the actual mix in each speaker changes when you move around the room. This is true surround. 
 

 

Head tracking doesn't give you that either.  You are conflating two issues. 

Binaural gives you 3D impression of the sound through two headphone speakers, using pyscho-acoustics.  It is an approximation for sure for other reasons that has nothing to do with head tracking though.   But it still will give you the ability to mix a multi-channel surround mix..which can be exported later as either Apple's Spatial Audio format or Dolby Atmos.

 

15 minutes ago, Rufuss Sewell said:

My interest is not VR gaming. It’s 3D music mixing where a track (object) is placed in your room. For example a piano player can be directly in front of you and a violinist in back. When you turn around the pianist is now in back of you and the violinist is in front. Just like if those people were in the room playing with you. Or you could make a mix sound like you are at an arena concert, or you are standing inside an orchestra pit. The creativity of your space is up to you. 

 

As I said already, that is a playback issue, not a production issue.  If you produce an immersive production in Dolby Atmos...using binaural headphones to do it if you want...you will not be able to turn your head and experience that VR experience while you mix it, but you will still be able to construct a 3D immersive surround mix...  later on a listener that is using appropriate head tracking playback gear would be able to experience what you are describing above.

 

15 minutes ago, Rufuss Sewell said:

It’s not that Logic’s head tracking is not meeting my expectations. That’s exactly how Logic’s implementation works and it sounds amazing.
 

 

The AirPods have some head tracking playback technology.  That is what you are experience, it is not part of the surround production process.

 

15 minutes ago, Rufuss Sewell said:

Logic and Airpods Pro offer this tech right now but there seems to be a bug in my system that is making it so I can’t monitor the mix live. The option is there but greyed out. Logic’s support team has confirmed to me that it’s a bug. 

 

That I can't help you with.  But again, that is a playback feature.  Its nice that LogicPro provides the ability, according to you right now, to let you test out your surround mix with head tracking headphones such as AirPods, sorry to hear its not working right.  But still...you can produce the surround mix....with or without the head tracking.  You just can only experience the VR playback by using playback devices that have head tracking.

There are also third party plugins from waves and others that use the webcam to monitor your head.  I have no idea whether it works well or not.  Some people do want to be able to mix, even in stereo, with head tracking to simulate the experience of being in a live control room and turning their head from side to side while mixing.  Eh.. ok.  but still, a good stereo mix can be made with or without that capability.  The same is true of surround as long as binaural pyscho-acoustics is accurate enough for your purposes...for some people they would require a full 7.1.4 loudspeaker system to consider it a true 3D mix...and then you don't have to worry about head tracking at all.

 

15 minutes ago, Rufuss Sewell said:

The point of this thread is to see if others are having the same issue so we can try to suss out a solution. 

I’m also not getting my bounced track to play back with head tracking in Apple Music although I suspect that’s user error. 

 

That I can't help you with.  Maybe someone else knows.
Good luck

 

Edited August 14, 2022 by Dewdman42

[Rufuss Sewell]

Of course it’s a playback issue. I’m attempting to monitor my surround mix while using head tracking live so that I can make changes to the mix which will work better for my intended audience: others who will be listening to my surround mixes with Airpods etc. This is an advertised feature and I’m not able to get it to work so I’m asking for others here to give it a try. 

Head tracking absolutely does give you a full immersive 3D surround experience. I mix in 5.1 surround and with Airpods with head tracking, the exact same experience is reproduced in the Airpods except rather than just 5.1, I get a full 3D experience including up and down. Objects can be placed anywhere in the room, not just in 6 speakers. And they stay where I put them in the room even if I move my head. 

I can mix in 5.1 with Atmos object tracks and then bounce that to mp4 and listen with head tracking and it works 100%. 

The only things that aren’t working are listening to the mix live with head tracking, and listening to the mix in Apple Music with head tracking. Both of these options are advertised as being able to work, but I’m having no luck.  

Do you have any headphones with Spatial Audio and a Mac with Apple Silicon? If so you can try these things out for yourself. It would really help to get a few people trying these features to see if anyone can get them to work. 

[Dewdman42]

Unfortunately I am not on Apple silicon yet, so I can't offer any assistance.  Sounds like Apple has confirmed its a bug already?

 

[Rufuss Sewell]

8 minutes ago, Dewdman42 said:

Unfortunately I am not on Apple silicon yet, so I can't offer any assistance.  Sounds like Apple has confirmed its a bug already?

Yeah, but I’m hoping maybe someone here can make it work and we can figure out a workaround. I’m on 10.7.4 but maybe 10.7.3 works. 

[Simon Morrison]

 

Can you confirm the following configuration options?:

• Mac with M1/M2

• macOS 12.5

• Logic Pro 10.7.4

• Sample rate: 48 kHz

• Spatial Audio: Dolby Atmos

• Surround Format: 7.1.2 (select from Mix > Dolby Atmos)

• Output device: AirPods Pro

• Atmos plug-in: Apple Renderer (Head Tracking)

  -or-

• Spatial Audio Monitoring plug-in: Apple Renderer (Head Tracking)

 

[Rufuss Sewell]

6 minutes ago, Simon Morrison said:

Can you confirm the following configuration options?:

• Mac with M1/M2

• macOS 12.5

• Logic Pro 10.7.4

• Sample rate: 48 kHz

• Spatial Audio: Dolby Atmos

• Surround Format: 7.1.2 (select from Mix > Dolby Atmos)

• Output device: AirPods Pro

• Atmos plug-in: Apple Renderer (Head Tracking)

  -or-

• Spatial Audio Monitoring plug-in: Apple Renderer (Head Tracking)

Yes, all of that is correct. I’m using the Atmos plugin. 

[Simon Morrison]

Is Logic Pro running in Rosetta mode?

[Rufuss Sewell]

On 8/15/2022 at 9:01 AM, Simon Morrison said:

Is Logic Pro running in Rosetta mode?

Yes! Actually it is. Good point. I’ll try in native mode and report back. 

edit: Holy Crap! That was it! 

And it sounds glorious! Thank you! 

This is the forum that always saves the day for me. Thanks to all. 

[David Nahmani]

8 hours ago, Rufuss Sewell said:

edit: Holy Crap! That was it! 

Wow! Great, very happy to hear we got to the bottom of it (many thanks to @Simon Morrison). 😀

So @Rufuss Sewell, switching from Rosetta to Native was the key to make the Apple Renderer (Head Tracking) monitoring option available again?

[Rufuss Sewell]

7 hours ago, David Nahmani said:

Wow! Great, very happy to hear we got to the bottom of it (many thanks to @Simon Morrison). 😀

So @Rufuss Sewell, switching from Rosetta to Native was the key to make the Apple Renderer (Head Tracking) monitoring option available again?

Yes, that was definitely it. It seems obvious now, but in all of the setup guides online it didn’t mention that it didn’t work in Rosetta mode. 

[David Nahmani]

Great, thanks so much for providing that info, I'm sure that'll help many others. 

[Travis H.]

I am having the same problem and I do not have Rosetta mode checked.

I'm running a 14" MacBook Pro (12.6) Spatial Audio works with Apple Music, but not Logic Pro 10.7.4. It remains grayed out for internal speakers and my airPod Max.

I've increased the buffer to 1024, and checked everything in Simon Morrison's checklist above; however, Spatial Audio (Head Tracking) is grayed out in the Atmos plugin and in the system bar. If I turn off the plugin everything plays out of the left channel. 

I tried both the demos and set up a new track, read docs, searched the web but no dice. I haven't used Logic in a few years and am new to spatial audio so maybe I'm missing something obvious?

 

Edited October 20, 2022 by Travis H.
Further testing and clarification of the problem.

[Simon Morrison]

On 10/20/2022 at 11:57 AM, Travis H. said:

I am having the same problem and I do not have Rosetta mode checked.

I'm running a 14" MacBook Pro (12.6) Spatial Audio works with Apple Music, but not Logic Pro 10.7.4. It remains grayed out for internal speakers and my airPod Max.

I've increased the buffer to 1024, and checked everything in Simon Morrison's checklist above; however, Spatial Audio (Head Tracking) is grayed out in the Atmos plugin and in the system bar. If I turn off the plugin everything plays out of the left channel. 

I tried both the demos and set up a new track, read docs, searched the web but no dice. I haven't used Logic in a few years and am new to spatial audio so maybe I'm missing something obvious?

Are the AirPods Max connected to the headphone jack on your MacBook Pro?

[Travis H.]

Thanks for the response. No they aren't. I don't have that cable, but I'd be happy to pick one up if it would solve the problem. However, I can't do the spatial audio through my internal MacBook speakers either. 

[Simon Morrison]

Plugging headphones into the headphone jack will disable your internal speakers.

In System Preferences > Accessibility > Audio >

is Spatial audio follows head movements enabled?

[Travis H.]

Ok, I've just been using them wirelessly because I don't have the cable.

I went in to Accessibility and tried enabling follows head movements. Oddly, the first time I tried it, I was able to select spatial audio for internal speakers. Unfortunately it didn't make any sound until I turned Atmos off. On subsequent attempts, I was unable to activate spatial audio for internal speakers or headphones irregardless of the Accessibility spatial audio settings (it remains grayed out yet checked).

One other odd thing is that if I switch the view of the Atmos plugin from Editor to Controls, I am able to select Apple Rendering(Head Tracking) but it still won't produce any sound with the Atmos plugin turned on.

I'm thinking of updating to Ventura to see if that helps but I know others are getting it to work fine on 12 (per your sig).

[Simon Morrison]

 

A few more things to check:

• Verify that the latest firmware is installed on your AirPods Max: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT213317

• When playing a Dolby Digital Plus (Atmos) encoded MP4 with the QuickTime Player application, check the Spatial Audio options in the Sound menu.

• The ADM BWF file created using Logic Pro's export project function is not a playable Dolby Atmos audio file.

DM me if you need a Dolby Atmos MP4 to test with.

 

[Travis H.]

Thanks for sticking with me on this. I checked my firmware and it is the latest 4E71.

I also downloaded spatial audio test files from the Dolby Digital Plus website and they played correctly with QuickTime Player. All Spatial audio options were available in the Sound menu.

 

[Simon Morrison]

 

Try installing a fresh copy of Logic Pro 10.7.4:

• Move the preference file com.apple.logic10.plist to the Trash: ~/Library/Preferences/

• Move all instances of the Logic Pro application to the Trash

• Restart

• Install Logic Pro via the App Store application

• Confirm that the Logic Pro "Open using Rosetta" box is unchecked

 

[Travis H.]

All right! I Moved the .plist file along with com.apple.logic.pro.cs to the trash. Then I just reopened logic and it autogenerated new files and everything now works as it should!

Thanks for getting me there!

 

--Travis

[Rufuss Sewell]

I’d really like to find a good tutorial showing the process of mixing in Atmos and then mastering the song with 3rd party limiters. My head still isn’t wrapped around the -18 LUFS and using a mastering chain both before and after the Atmos plugin. 
 

Then I want to see someone export the file and check the mix. I can do it live, but I’m at a loss as to how to check the mix once I’m done. 
 

Beyond that I feel like I could really use some plugins that make things spin around the room. And delays that bounce around. Rich 3D Atmos reverbs etc. Are these kinds of things out there? Trying record automated movement in a 3D space with the mouse is… super lame. 
 

What can we do to take this topic further in a creative way?

[Simon Morrison]

1 hour ago, Travis H. said:

All right! I Moved the .plist file along with com.apple.logic.pro.cs to the trash. Then I just reopened logic and it autogenerated new files and everything now works as it should!

Thanks for getting me there!

--Travis

Excellent!

FYI - Logic Pro 10.7.5 is now available, and includes several fixes and enhancements pertaining to Spatial Audio, Dolby Atmos and AirPods Max.