Furious George Posted December 11, 2007 Share Posted December 11, 2007 Working on large orchestral arrangements in Logic Pro 8 is difficult compared to Logic 7. There seem to be many praises for logics new workflow, but alas, this is not the case with me. I have been in contact with apple, and there response is "we are working on it". Seems to me as though users with problems with logic 8 are the minority. Note the bar view difference. Logic 7 shows all the bars to snap to, at this resolution. Logic 8 doesn't. Logic 7 shows muted notes in lighter grey. This is a very useful feature which has been removed in Logic 8 Logic 7 repeats the region names conveniently further along in the regions. In logic 8 they're just at the beginning of regions. http://www.patrickwilsonmusic.com/logic/Logic-7-view.jpg Exact same view in Logic Pro 8 'View Region Content' is permanently on but is almost entirely useless: http://www.patrickwilsonmusic.com/logic/Logic-Pro-8-view.jpg Another bug is that the information in the 'hyper draw' in regions is displayed up to 2 bars late. Compare this shot from the Arrange page where the fade in starts before bar 1: http://www.patrickwilsonmusic.com/logic/hyper-edit.jpg now see how in the arrange it appears to start (wrongly) at bar 2 http://www.patrickwilsonmusic.com/logic/arrange-hyper.jpg INTEL MAC PLUGIN DISTRIBUTION PROBLEM: At a buffer size of 128 Logic Pro 8 seems to distribute it's own plugins evenly over 8 cores. But other plugins seem to be unable to be distributed over the available cores. The above is what happens when I add 2 Altiverb 6 audio units. http://www.patrickwilsonmusic.com/logic/cpu-max.jpg Anyone else seen this delightful little message? http://www.patrickwilsonmusic.com/logic/non-Tempo-Event.jpg My latest problem is another one that I suppose is limited to the minority who (Gasp) still use a lot of tempo changes in their music. Despite Apples boast about their new timing engine permitting recordings of up to 12 hours audio (see their old Late-breaking News Doc) they've managed to make it impossible to work with tempo-changes in a humble 11 minute opera segment! Tracks with significant tempo changes very quickly corrupt with this error message: "Non Tempo-Event found in Sync Reference" Often on re-launching a song (which was in fine shape when you saved it) you find a bunch of rogue corrupt entries in the tempo list which you can delete till the cows come home but stubbornly and endlessly re-appear from nowhere to render your work useless. The whole tempo map just 'lines out' and all your work is gone and your Midi to Audio all, irredeemably out of sync. I spent days recording a large choir, at great expense, in Logic 7 with DAE Protools and have tried to continue working on it in Logic 8 Native on a new Intel Machine. Believe me I've really tried - but I am starting to realise that unless Apple fix a whole range of really bad problems this software is actually unusable for film-scoring and Classical music. What hurts is that I spent thousands of pounds on the new system hoping for improvement. Intel Mac 8-core/10.4.11/16g RAM/Logic Pro 8/Core Audio Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikiber2 Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 hey, I can only say.. I Understand you !!! i've got the same problems, i'm scoring music for a dance work, trying to sync it to video and the "Non Tempo-Event found in Sync Reference" is getting me completely crazy !! there's also alot of automation problems ! i guess apple has more important things to to do (Iphone...) than fixing the bugs for us. i would really prefer paying 1000$ for a working software than 500$ for a beta. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el-bo Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 i understand your problem...really, i do what i don't understand is what you expect from us....it's juat plain ranting it appears you have joined today, this is your first post and you've come in all 'mr angry' just to moan at us none of us can help you..... you have contacted apple, who have told you they are working on it........ why don't you just wait to see if they honour this what can be gained from this post really......the bugs in logic arent as frustrating as posts like this and posters like yourself, furious........ and it comes as no surprise that you have a new friend...so now you have made contact, you can continue this off forum........please Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bebop Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 actually that looks like really deep midi programing and i'd love to hear/see how it's resolved for your workflow i dunno - i see plenty of basic dance track/groove based stuff presented here, and small problems associated with that style this looks hip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emilenitrate Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 Hey, what the heck, let him rant. We can just move on to other threads if we don't want to hear it. I'm loving things about 8 and hating other things. Sometimes ranting a bit here has gotten me solutions I was ignorant to. I gotta say, I hated the little notes in the midi regions and like the matrix style representations. What I really wish Apple had done, was make the preference and settings pages HUGE, with lots of simple little display decisions that everybody could make for themselves. Compared to the mind bloggling task of coding a monster DAW like Logic, how hard could it be to make all those display options user defined? Anyhow, I'm an advocate of free speech. - Emile Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el-bo Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 i'm all for free speech.... and fwiw, i much prefer the old style notes display too...much clearer to see whats in your midi region what peed me off is the combo attack FURIOUS george sends a post entitled logic 8 is useless (with pictures)...it's his first post and that's his opener this is a support forum...people here are supportive...just don't crash the party screaming...... he has also been luckier than most to have had apple respond to him that they are working on his concerns....but this still isn't enough....wait to see if they let you down, then shout about it....... actually...don't..... i find that posts like this are much better recieved at the apple support forums Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben parsons Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 maybe he's hoping for workarounds or for apple to read this and associated complaints to add weight to the complaint he has made with them already. you are the one who read the whole thing el-bo. it's ok to skip posts you aren't interested in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furious George Posted December 12, 2007 Author Share Posted December 12, 2007 hey,I can only say.. I Understand you !!! i've got the same problems, i'm scoring music for a dance work, trying to sync it to video and the "Non Tempo-Event found in Sync Reference" is getting me completely crazy !! there's also alot of automation problems ! i guess apple has more important things to to do (Iphone...) than fixing the bugs for us. i would really prefer paying 1000$ for a working software than 500$ for a beta. Yes, logic 8 has serious issues. You would expect this behavior with a program say like, garage band, but for a professional application it is unacceptable. With no update in sight, logic's pro userbase is left in l limbo. Many options have been removed. Its hard for many people I talk to deal with the workflow issues and bugs. Many have spent many pounds on new mac's and logic 8 only to deal with a nightmare. Many thinking of dumping this program all together. How long will you but up with this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el-bo Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 it was jus' the tone anyhoo if i asked you to do something for me and you replied that you were working on it....would it change anything if i called you the next day and said 'by the way 200 other people want you to do this also'.........would you not say something like......'i said yesterday, i'm working on it' anyway, just joking with ya....i take on board that i shoulda just skipped it, and by trying to stop others wasting peoples time, i'm actually wasting mine maybe now i can be free....unemployment and the internet = bad combo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teamworkmammal Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 p.s. this isn't ranting. if someone else wants to buy logic 8 expecting great scoring capabilities, i HOPE they chance on this post. posts like these DO help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcrigger Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 Put me in the "appreciate the thread" column - So far with 8 I've been focusing getting familar so many of the changes and hadn't yet got to anything regarding tempo maps. So I appreciate the heads up about the problems as I have major work coming soon - all orchestral-tempos all over the place stuff - and was hoping to make use of 8's "record from busses" routing stuff, which would have saved huge headaches on this project. But not if tempo maps are screwy. Egads. Is like 99% of beta testing done with 4/4 dance music? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikiber2 Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 actually, Yes i'm very unhappy with this situation, but the true is that I shouldn't have install the new logic before i check if everything is ok ! so mostly i blame myself. so now i'm stuck with it because i already save the projects i'm working on in LP8 but i really think that if they fix this "bugs" logic is a great tool, and i'm willing to wait a few more months before making drastic decisions. right now i can manage to work with all the bugs,, btw, be sure not to begin the song before bar 1 this is getting logic completely buggy with tempo things.. and for the others, it's also good sometime to complain dont take it so perssonaly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adagio12 Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 And the moral of the story is....stay away from the "Bleeding Edge" of software development and you'll retain your hair and your sanity... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el-bo Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 don't get me wrong...i understand this in the context of heads-up type warning.....i also agree with all points raised i just feel that the tone was wrong..... why the title 'logic is useless'............ when quite clearly it isn't if your aim is to tell others of the problems you are having so that they don't make the same mistakes...all good.......you can do this without the rant and as regards the beta testing argument...... this is how software works......beta testers don't cover all bases...that would be impossible.........i do hear you that not enough area is covered outside the norm (4/4)....maybe you could seriously volunteer yourself to beta test this area in future be also aware that on many occasions that this type of thing is posted (on other forums also), there is an air of snobbishness about the fact that only 4/4 is catered for and not SERIOUS musicians.........it really is ALL music and 'serious' is just an attitude the poster before me brings up the the point of self blame...and as wrong as it is , in principle, this is just how it works.....you'll find that many on this forum are still using tiger (despite temptations), for exactly the reasons above.....we all know that early adopting is ,at the very least, risky....should it be???? no....but it just is........if you jump 2-footed into a .0 release, you are gambling and some will go as far as to lay some blame with the lack of caution i want leopard also....but won't dare....yet and when i got logic 8, for quite a long time i only worked on new stuff and when i did bring in L7 projects i had them backed up as L7 iso's on another drive....still do all of this not from getting burnt, but from reading how others have been...these forums are great places to learn, but please........ let's SHARE, not SHOUT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el-bo Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 adagio....bang on the money i wish to be that succinct....i've just got too much time on my hands Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kouly Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 I spent days recording a large choir, at great expense, in Logic 7 with DAE Protools and have tried to continue working on it in Logic 8 Native on a new Intel Machine. Believe me I've really tried - but I am starting to realise that unless Apple fix a whole range of really bad problems this software is actually unusable for film-scoring and Classical music. What hurts is that I spent thousands of pounds on the new system hoping for improvement. Intel Mac 8-core/10.4.11/16g RAM/Logic Pro 8/Core Audio As I truly would like to be helpful in a situation like this, I am going to point out a couple of things you said so that it will help others in the future. You made two assumptions that are worth noting. The first being that Logic 8 is unusable. Logic 8 is far from unusable for these kind of projects but it is unusable in your situation. This leads me to the second assumption you made which is that you could take a vastly complex project that was started in Logic 7 and bring it into 8 and expect not to have problems. Since you seem to be more of a composer than a systems analyst I will just say that Logic 7 code still had many parts that were throwbacks to the Emagic days which go back to 1989. This ancient code was the reason Logic 8 took so long to complete since the program was rewritten from the ground up in a newer programing language. Most people I would hope would understand that what you tried to do is really asking for trouble. So this kind of thing is bound to happen but I am trying to warn people that if you have a really big project or even a not so big project that is complex, just finish it in 7 and use 8 for new projects. I believe many of the headaches you are having can be avoided by using this strategy. Of course no program is perfect in every situation but bringing 7 projects into 8 is just not a good idea in my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el-bo Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 there is a good new discussion running currently an enquiry as to leopard, and whether other pro's have switched good 'sound' advice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Versamina Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 "Non Tempo-Event found in Sync Reference" This happened to me several times on L7 as well as L8 with multiple tempo arrangements-It really is disastrous if you haven't backed up. With this sort of midi editing, you are probably using lots off cc data for dynamics etc-Have you had any problems with automation?.I have a recurring issue where logic crashes every time i open automation IF i also have a lot of hyperdraw stuff going on. I'm personally brokenhearted that the notation is gone from the arrange page-it slows down this type workflow without it-Thats got to be perfectly obvious from the example in the first post here... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musicianista Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 Outrageous! Pictures, but no popcorn?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el-bo Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musicianista Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 What version of LP7 were you running? I'm also at a loss as to why, with such a large, expensive (choir) and important job, that you would not have just finished it in LP7?? I'm not trying to be critical or nasty etc... I would have been terrified at the very thought... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benulous Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 While the subject line could have been sprinkled with a dose of 'PC', I didn't see the actual post as being overtly 'ranting' as much as informational - as he is obviously bringing up valid points with screen shots for proof. It's not useful to me - as I can get uses out of Logic8 for the kind of music compositions I create - but, others in his situation will find this useful - and hopefully help them make a more deliberate decision with upgrading/purchasing the software - or at minimum - be prepared. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taxiway01 Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 fwiw, imho, etc... when I had to choose to which DAW I would turn, I'd have appreciated to find this type of comment to make my own opinion. And I work on L7, L8 and even more on FCP, still I don't have any stock options from Apple. What's this verbal police here? Humberto got banned because he was not making sense (however he was funny). This guy here makes sense. Why is any negative opinion about Logic taken as a personal offense so often? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rufuss Sewell Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 It's extremely important for people to get publicly pissed off when huge corporations sell buggy and unusable software. Apple deserves as much negative press as possible until they smarten up and start communicating clearly with the public about bugs and exactly what they're doing about them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morerecords Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 WEll, Apple are dicks hellbent on world domination, true. BUT!!! This guy only has two posts, It's Humberto back again to ruin everyone's day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeeMan Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 Hi, new user perspective here... I don't really understand... The guy has put over the point that he has some problems with L8. One's that may be deal-breakers for other people thinking of buying L8. Is that viewed as unacceptable behaviour here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beer Moth Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 He has very legitimate gripes. Maybe a less provocative User name might have diverted some of the flack. Apple need to address these and other issues ASAP. I hope they do,as much for their sake as ours... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morerecords Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 well 'G' man, or George, or whatever, basically our forum has been plagued with negative rants by this guy Humberto. He is ruining a site that we use to teach each other how to use Logic, or to occasionally bitch in hopes of apple devleopers readin, but proper 'netiquette' dictates that you must know the people you are bitching to, it helps to have been an active part of a community before you start spewing your s#!+, and also... let it go once you get it out, take the help others offer, and then DONT BITCH for a while. Don't change your user name simply to bitch again and again. He got banned and keeps coming back to bitch and moan, now with only one or two posts associated with his user alias. Leave us alone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeeMan Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 well 'G' man, or George, or whatever...... Leave us alone Um, are you telling me to F*** off? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beer Moth Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 ? This guy is not Humberto. Not even similar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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