Logic Pro 8 at NAMM???

[gordon.murrison]

How can they turn up and show exactly what they showed last year? Not good. Ever the optimist, I still believe that they are creating something new and very special (and probably have been since they bought Emagic) and it's just not ready yet.

 

But if this is the beginning of the end for Logic, what's the best of the rest as a composition and creative MIDI / softsynth tool?

[rdot]

But if this is the beginning of the end for Logic, what's the best of the rest as a composition and creative MIDI / softsynth tool?

 

I've been playing with Ableton's Live for a bit (ya know.. just in case) and I can't really seem to get into it, but many swear by it. It's worth a look.

 

http://ableton.com

[gordon.murrison]

Thanks - I had forgotten about Live!! Was only thinking of the more traditional DAWs.

 

Not ready to jump ship just yet. I still beleive Apple will deliver. Maybe Musikmesse, maybe after Leopard, maybe NAMM 08!! Who knows. For now, it's time to make music and not get hung up on the future we can't predict or control!

[jpaesano]

Logic & OSX are STILL the most stable working environment available in the DAW world, its taken almost three years for the other companies to catch up, and i use catch up very loosely

 

Sick and tired of everyone bitching and complaining about how logic and apple don't deliver, i want all of you people to jump into the pc world or another daw on the mac and then come back and tell me how terrible logic is.

 

Apple and Logic will come through

[JPZ]

>>Logic & OSX are STILL the most stable working environment available in the DAW world, its taken almost three years for the other companies to catch up, and i use catch up very loosely<<

 

You're kidding, right?

[lwilliam]

>...Sick and tired of everyone bitching and complaining about how logic and apple don't deliver, i want all of you people to jump into the pc world or another daw on the mac and then come back and tell me how terrible logic is. Apple and Logic will come through<

 

I wouldn't touch the PC world for audio, but DP is smoking Logic for audio editing and arguably better at midi, and PT has always smoked it for audio - and are catching up with midi. Count the bugs in Logic and then tell me this is a great product. I think all three products are comparatively stable if you know what you're doing.

 

3 years and no delivery of a significantly updated product (GB compatibility doesn't count) is a LLLLLOOONNNNNGGGGGGG time in the software business.

 

I do hope LP8 comes through as well.

[JPZ]

I bought Logic last month to get away from PT. I figured it would be tightly integrated with Mac and a nice option.. I should have done better research. Feels like I wasted 825 bucks. It's cool but I wasn't aware it hadn't been updated in 3 years. 3 YEARS! You've got to be kidding me! PT is way way way ahead w/ audio but I've been using it so long it's boring. DP is way ahead audio and midi as is Cubase. I've had to use several of the big PC programs (Sonar etc...) and to me they are not usable professionally except for Nuendo which I'm waiting to be Intel ready. I can't remember working with an audio program where I see the options/functions in menus or in the manual but they actually do not work as is the case with several of Logics features. Incredible! My point is that it's a crime that a program with this much potential (being owned by apple) is languishing.

[Simon R.]

JPZ, ditto! I began with Cubase VST on PC, then moved to Logic, persuaded by a friend of mine. Have tried getting back to Cubase since SX1 but too many bugs and general weird behaviour has kept me coming back to Logic. Recently I took the consequence and bought a Mac Pro to be able to get a newer version than 5.5, and it felt like coming home LOL. As you said, I wish Apple would update Logic - NOT give it a huge Cubase-Nintendo look - I prefer to be able to watch a LOT of MIDI tracks and switch screensets quickly, but add new MIDI + audio functionality - and improve software instruments support It's rather old-fashioned now, with the environment and setting up multich instruments etc... geez:) But it is still IMHO the best MIDI sequencer. If I was mainly doing audio, I would choose ProTools.'

 

I actually got DP5 too - still haven't figured out how the h*ll it works. It is rather different from other sequencers regarding the usual stuff like navigation and setting up tracks. I guess I have to read the manual... But the font is TOO tiny:/ On my 24" 1920x1200 monitor it's very hard to read. There should be a setting for font size.

[jpaesano]

I wouldn't touch the PC world for audio, but DP is smoking Logic for audio editing and arguably better at midi, and PT has always smoked it for audio - and are catching up with midi. Count the bugs in Logic and then tell me this is a great product. I think all three products are comparatively stable if you know what you're doing.

 

3 years and no delivery of a significantly updated product (GB compatibility doesn't count) is a LLLLLOOONNNNNGGGGGGG time in the software business.

 

I do hope LP8 comes through as well.

 

 

i don't understand?

 

if you think those other programs are so much better, why don't you just stick with them. why are wasting your time complaining about the short comings of logic.

 

Its sounds to me like there are a lot of people who don't know how to use logic.

 

You guys should really check out Cakewalk or better yet, maybe garageband

[lwilliam]

>i don't understand?

 

if you think those other programs are so much better, why don't you just stick with them. why are wasting your time complaining about the short comings of logic.

 

Its sounds to me like there are a lot of people who don't know how to use logic.

 

You guys should really check out Cakewalk or better yet, maybe garageband<

 

Very simple: We want the best tools that can be developed to make it easier to do our jobs, not harder. This is a money gig for many of us, not a past-time. I don't want to have to apologize to my clients when something doesn't work like it's supposed to in the manual. I do use PT and I do use Logic. If you don't need modern tools that function properly and choose to ignore technical advances and competition, then use Logic 4.1 with Mac OS9.

[ski]

Logic & OSX are STILL the most stable working environment available in the DAW world

 

You can't be serious.

[ski]

David, thank you for the report from NAMM. Much appreciated.

 

Best Regards,

 

-=sKi=-

[ski]

Logic & OSX are STILL the most stable working environment available in the DAW world

 

Have you visited the bug list here at LPH lately?

 

Have you ever had key commands suddenly not work, lose MIDI input because the cable between Logic's input and output mysteriously disappear? Have you ever had automation fail to chase properly? How about when you're using audio instruments and you start playback from the downbeat of a bar. Any bar. Any one at all. Hit play and what do you hear? Either nothing, or, a garbled version of the music you're working on. It's taken the Logic guys all of 11 years to make Logic so advanced that you can't play music back from a downbeat. Have you ever tried to load up a normal compliment's worth of sampler plugs to do an orchestration only to have Logic CRASH after it reports that there it can't allocate any more RAM? Oh, and what about the score editor, which changes the position of hours/days-worth of carefully placed dynamic markings every time you re-open the song? And let's not forget about song corruption, magically disappearing markers, UNDO which undoes multiple edits at once (and you can't re-do and get them back), and 7.2.3/Intel's lovely bug where you can't adjust tempo events' SMPTE locations. That's really great for the film scoring contingent, isn't it?

 

Need I go on? Probably not. But to say that this is the most stable combination of DAW and host OS? Laughable. Truly, utterly, laughable.

 

-=sKi=-

[rdot]

Its sounds to me like there are a lot of people who don't know how to use logic.

 

It sounds to a lot of people like you haven't used Logic enough.

 

Not trying to be an asshole here, but come on.

[jpaesano]

I've been using logic for the past 8 years, i haven't had half the problems all of you guys are talking about. I have used it on every scoring stage in town. I also have many peers who use it without problems. Patch it into the board feed it time code, chase, Sequence plays back, record orchestra, done. I rarely have problems

 

I understand why people are upset, but if you just want to complain about how bad logic is and how all these other programs are better, its real simple, maybe it's time for you to switch programs, and stop bitching.

 

I would love to know what some your setups are???

 

I've been using it with pro-tools hardware, and Motu hardware, EUcon, G5 (Intel) 3.0GHz 8 gigs of ram MidiOverLan, and 18 Gigafarms. I never get an issue

 

Its tough because everyone situation is different. I guess the whole point of the game is trying to find a system that works for you, but why waste time using a program that is not working for you. Especially if it is costing you money and clients

 

I think a lot of people are bitter and angry and just want to bitch, which is fine.

 

But don't cut down the software and developers. If you really feel like there are better options just move on.

[ski]

I've been using logic for the past 8 years, i haven't had half the problems all of you guys are talking about. I have used it on every scoring stage in town. I also have many peers who use it without problems. Patch it into the board feed it time code, chase, Sequence plays back, record orchestra, done. I rarely have problems.

 

I could assume that what you wrote is just a microcosm of the manner in which you use Logic. However, if that's not the case, and you use it primarily for audio recording, it would go a long way towards explaining why you haven't run into, as you say, half the problems us guys are talking about.

 

But if you use it for, say, preparing a written score, you can't tell me that you haven't run into the bug where, after entering numerous time sig changes, that hitting UNDO one time wipes out all of those changes en masse. Or the myriad of other score-related bugs that exist.

 

You said you'd love to see some of our setups. Well, I'd be happy to sho you mine, particularly my latest setup. It was created only two or three days ago from scratch after I wiped my hard drive down to zeros and re-installed my software from the bottom up. Aside from two 3rd party system plugs -- which I can confirm have no impact on Logic's performance -- my system contains only Logic, Mail, Safari, and whatever apps were installed by my custom minimal install. I don't have even a remnant of Garage Band anything anywhere. It's minimal. It's running on a Quad with 6 Gigs.

 

Despite this fresh start, the Logic weirdness & bugs I've experienced over the past three days are, I'd say, 95% absolutely consistent with the problems I've run into with Logic from the day I originally installed it. These bugs have been confirmed by numerous other Logic users via this and other forums. So there is nothing untoward about my setup. If anything, there is something wholly untoward about the program itself. Hell, after 11 years of running this app I would think I know a thing or two about what not to do.

 

So why do people like me bitch and moan? Primarily because for us there IS no alternative to Logic, and frustration is bound to reach a peak as Apple/Logic continues to turn a deaf ear on us dedicated users, refusing to acknowledge even long-standing problems that affect everyone, including you, whether you know it or not. If you're not using instrument plugs, then once you start you'll know what I mean.

 

Many of us have centered our financial and creative lives around this tool, and when it's broken, the only recourse we have is to post about it as well as send feedback to the great unresponsive black hole that is Logic Pro Feedback. Maybe this and other forums are the wrong venue, but they're the ONLY venue we have. To this effect, I can't tell you how un-constructive I feel it is to read the ol' "love it or leave it" approach. If anything, consider yourself lucky that you have smooth sailing with Logic, and at the same time have some understanding that other people are constantly riding up on shoals -- not because they're bad navigators, but because their navigational tools are broken. Consider yourself lucky and don't chide those of us who feel there's no way out but love the program enough to stick with it.

 

Respectfully,

 

-=sKi=-

[dkgross]

good arguments.

 

Gotta say...DP 5.1.1 does some damn nice stuff. I ain't switching back (I stopped at DP 4.5)..but, it's a big wakeup call to Logic...and PTools 7.3 has made some big strides in the MIDI dept.

 

and, as david said..the new little Apogee thingy for the MacBook Pro is pretty amazing.

[jpaesano]

i understand what you are saying, and i have run into my share of bugs but i think we just have to be a little more patient.

 

let leopard come out, bring logic into the 64bit world, get access to that 16 gigs of 667 ram. Then i think everyone will be happy.

 

Logic is an amazing tool even with the bugs. Plus all other DAWs have bugs.

 

Tons of pro's use this software and create amazing stuff with it, and everyone has access to do the same, you just have to find a way to make it work.

 

Its not like you aren't getting anything for the money you spent on the software.

 

you get so much for your 1000 bucks, much more then any other DAW

 

I understand the frustration, but I THINK, and i stress "I", Logic is a great tool, and we really don't have much to complain in the manner that some of us are complaining.

 

That is the last i will say on this matter.

 

i guarantee the next version of logic will destroy the other DAWS, just like 7 did. So many of the other companies have been playing catch up for the past 3 years

[tokolosh]

I think Apple needs to wake up

 

Logic is lacking many basic functions especially in the audio post production department.I wish logic had half the functions its competitors have such as Pro Tools, Nuendo and Vegas.

 

ah yes a 5.1 output buss channel would be nice

Edited January 19, 2007 by tokolosh

[ski]

let leopard come out, bring logic into the 64bit world, get access to that 16 gigs of 667 ram. Then i think everyone will be happy.

 

I wish I could be as optimistic as you. Really, I do. But I've seen v1.0 of too many things suck big-time, and Leopard and Logic 8 will both be, essentially, v1.0. It's called 'growing pains', and every new software experiences this.

 

So if history repeats itself, as it usually does, the waiting game may be much longer than you think. But man, I hope I'm wrong...

 

Logic is an amazing tool even with the bugs. Plus all other DAWs have bugs.

 

No argument from me that Logic is an amazing tool. If it wasn't I wouldn't be using it.

 

On the subject of other DAW's bugs, I recently learned that Cubase suffers from the same can't-play-back-from-a-downbeat problem. So no, it's never just Logic. But in all honesty, I think our perspectives differ because we must use Logic in ways that differ vastly from one another. You mentioned this in your original post, and it reminds me of when Oscar Wilde said that England and America are two countries separated by a common language.

 

Tons of pro's use this software and create amazing stuff with it, and everyone has access to do the same, you just have to find a way to make it work.

 

Those tons of pros include myself; however, being a "pro" has nothing to do with it. But if the "pro" is somehow supposed to be "put up or shut up", then no, I'm not a pro. In that case I'm just a guy with a very long track record who wants his DAW not to crash or corrupt his work.

 

Of all the bugs I've mentioned in my posts in this thread, there are workarounds for only a few. Disappearing environment cables and score markings that shift, to name two, have no workarounds except to re-establish the cable (if you're saavy enough to discover that this is even the cause), or, in the case of markings, spend additional hours/days re-working the markings. The latter case is not an acceptable workaround. And it is precisely the developers of this software who are to blame for not fixing this kind of errant behavior --- not the user, pro or not.

 

I understand the frustration, but I THINK, and i stress "I", Logic is a great tool, and we really don't have much to complain in the manner that some of us are complaining.

 

All I can say is that you haven't walked a mile in my shoes, or those of other Logic users with whom I regularly correspond who run into the same errant behaviors. And I hope you never have to. Again, I would just ask that you not be so hard on those who have legitimate gripes with the program they otherwise love.

 

And this will likewise be the last I have to say on this matter.

 

Peace,

 

-=sKi=-

[putte]

.. it´s probably not needed to see my rants over here as well,

but after being a sceptic ever since apple bought emagic my frustration reached a new climax last night, after not having seen at least *anything* from apple at namm. simply nothing .. after all this time.

 

what are these people doing the whole day??

 

putte

[teknobryan]

how long has it been since a major update?

[Ashermusic]

.. it´s probably not needed to see my rants over here as well,

but after being a sceptic ever since apple bought emagic my frustration reached a new climax last night, after not having seen at least *anything* from apple at namm. simply nothing .. after all this time.

 

what are these people doing the whole day??

 

putte

 

I was at NAMM yesterday at the Apple booth and while I do not want to name drop or self-aggrandize I can confidently say the following:

 

The Logic audio engine was completetly re-written to allow future development on the MacIntel and it was a BIG job. Logic 8 is almost a new app and it just isn't done yet. I think they are wise to wait until it is REALLY done. We all remember what happened with Logic Pro 7.0. don't we?

 

Everybody has a right to want what they want in a DAW and like all products the developers will pick and choose their priorities and the marketplace will decide if they have chosen wisely.

[ski]

Jay,

 

Based on what you've reported (thank you very much, BTW), the PPC is a dead platform with regard to Logic.

 

I saw this coming a mile away...

[gordon.murrison]

It doesn't necessarily mean an end to PPC support in Logic 8. It may be that to make better use of multi processor systems (i.e. the new Intels) it needed to be re-written to be more multi threaded.

[ski]

It doesn't necessarily mean an end to PPC support in Logic 8. It may be that to make better use of multi processor systems (i.e. the new Intels) it needed to be re-written to be more multi threaded.

 

I soooo hope you're right.

Edited January 19, 2007 by ski

[Ashermusic]

Jay,

 

Based on what you've reported (thank you very much, BTW), the PPC is a dead platform with regard to Logic.

 

I saw this coming a mile away...

 

Wow, I don't know how you got that from what I wrote! I certainly did not say or mean to imply that.

 

Folks, to be clear I have no insider info to disclose and if i did I wouldn't because of NDAs.

 

I would fully expect that PPC will be supported in Logic 8 for a couple of years then, as with the PC version and OS 9 versions, it will go away.

 

That is the world of technology.

[ski]

Jay,

 

Didn't mean to put words in your mouth. I guess I was just reading between the lines since you didn't mention anything about Logic 8 being written with PPC compatibility in mind.

 

I also see a pattern with the way 7.2 has being further developed. There have been no updates for this UB version to address most of the major bugs. While it would be fair to say that I'm projecting here, I can't help but keep in mind that, as you said, there is a "way" with technology, and it's almost always skewed towards deprecation of the old.

 

Again, thanks for the report.

Edited January 19, 2007 by ski

[MikeShapiro]

My (minor and highly speculative) two cents:

 

That Logic has only undergone minor upgrades in the past N years is somewhat suggestive of a massive rewrite. When developers make big changes to a program, they usually split off the code into a development branch (where all the new stuff goes) and a stability branch (for bug fixes only). The current Logic smacks of being a stability branch, being kept current with new technologies and occasionally tweaked, but otherwise deliberately left alone.

 

This is just speculation based on general knowledge of how development tends to work, not any insider info.

[VSOP]

My (minor and highly speculative) two cents:

 

That Logic has only undergone minor upgrades in the past N years is somewhat suggestive of a massive rewrite. When developers make big changes to a program, they usually split off the code into a development branch (where all the new stuff goes) and a stability branch (for bug fixes only). The current Logic smacks of being a stability branch, being kept current with new technologies and occasionally tweaked, but otherwise deliberately left alone.

 

This is just speculation based on general knowledge of how development tends to work, not any insider info.

 

Gotta agree on this big time. There is NO WAY that were gonna see Logic 8 Before Leapord comes out. That just wouldent make ANY kinda sence. Here, use this huge update that you will have to update again with in a few months? Doubt it.

 

I think a few thing are definitly true. Steve Jobs is a gangster, and gansters do what gangsters want. (Sorry to use such a hoodish saying but I think it applys) If he feels that there is no way that apple can make money in the Pro Audio market then He will let logic fall back and eventually die.

 

I can say this for certin, the Garage Band Engine and The Logic Engine are Identicle. Dont believe me, try this. Make a track in GB. Save it. Take the GB song Icon and drag it over the Logic Icon.. what happens.. boom it opens the song in logic and if u look at the enviorment you can see exactily how GB is set up. Plugs and all. Bounce the song in each program and import in to any daw imanigable and they will 100 percent Phase Null.

 

Maybe he bought Logic to turn it into GB, maybe he didnt... only time will tell as Apple sureley wont let that info out.

 

Leapord looks to me, to be intence. Thankfully they have seeded 10.4.9 so 10.5 is the next step. Logic will SURLEY have to be updated for the 64 bit system.. If we dont see somthing big follwing that update, then maybe its best to move on, but maybe well all be blown away. You Know how Steve LOVES to level the compition.

 

Apogee continess to come out with new things for the symphoney/Ensamble system and they look very cutting edge to me. This would seem to be a good sign to me.

 

Ask yourelf this. If they were really going to drop logic would they have spent time and money updating 7 to access the Quad, or would they have let us twist in the wind. They didnt HAVE 2 do that. They didnt make ANY $$ of that update and yall had already bought the Quads, so they didnt sell a huge number of Quads because of that update. They are a business that plans at least a year or 2 in the future and surely the decision about Logics fate has already been made. (he just said look out for a jaw dropping device in 2008. 08!)

 

This is Just what I think. I use logic for MIDI composing and Audio tracking and mixing. Do i miss the Sample accurate editing functions from PT.. sure, but I got along JUST fine without them on tape so WTF. I never listen to those older records and say, man if only I coulda done 1000 drum edits instead of the 15 to 20 that I did on tape, this would have been better, or gone platinum. If your particular workflow rels on 2 many of Logics Buggier (and bugs thre are a plenty) aspects, then find anther program to augment what you do, if you can. Melodyne tunes vocals better than logics tuner, but noone really complains about having to bounce tracks out to another program to achieve those results (I do relieze the new plug version makes it so you dont have to do this anymore)

 

This is in no way a rant, just a reminder to be patient... well see soon enough whats up.

 

MH