New Audio Engine Request Logic Pro X

[angelonyc]

Hey I got a GREAT idea... If you don't like Logic's audio engine.. DON'T USE IT....

[stpro]

we have to use logic, because the best midi platform in the world. also the smartest and best midi workflow in the world

 

but

developed only MIDI for 30 years, i think now they need to develop some audio features now..

example

transaparent audio engine and transparent HP LP channel EQ.

realistic GUI fades

batch fades

Vr audio

include realtime zynaptiq ZTX Pro time strech

region gain on region (without region float gain)

and many many more audio features

just give them new exs, nothing else because already in midi all available

time is audio features..

[fernandraynaud]

Hey I got a GREAT idea... If you don't like Logic's audio engine.. DON'T USE IT....

 

Hey I got a GREATER idea... if you don't like discussions. DON'T PARTICIPATE..............

[simon.a.billington]

we have to use logic, because the best midi platform in the world. also the smartest and best midi workflow in the world

 

but

developed only MIDI for 30 years, i think now they need to develop some audio features now..

example

transaparent audio engine and transparent HP LP channel EQ.

realistic GUI fades

batch fades

Vr audio

include realtime zynaptiq ZTX Pro time strech

region gain on region (without region float gain)

and many many more audio features

just give them new exs, nothing else because already in midi all available

time is audio features..

 

Midi 2.0, I think that’s what they are calling it has been on the brew for quite a few years. It has involved a lot of major players, including Apple I believe. If you have been studying Apple over the last 20 or so years you will notice that they are a BIG non-proprietary format fan. For better, but sometimes for worse.

 

Anyway, I believe that Midi 2.0 has been finally formalised and announced. I personally believe Apple has been waiting on that to integrate it into its own products. They already have gone ahead and introduced some features like articulation information stored on the note level. However, we have yet to see a major integration of it. If we don’t see it next major release we should definitely see it the next.

[David Nahmani]

Anyway, I believe that Midi 2.0 has been finally formalised and announced. I personally believe Apple has been waiting on that to integrate it into its own products. They already have gone ahead and introduced some features like articulation information stored on the note level. However, we have yet to see a major integration of it. If we don’t see it next major release we should definitely see it the next.

So not Logic XI but Logic XII in 2034?

 

Seriously though I remember talking to the Logic developers about MIDI 2.0 back in January 2006. And already back then, it wasn't a brand new idea. So MIDI 2.0 has been "around" for quite some time!

[fernandraynaud]

Has the excitement died down around here?

Doesn't Logic have a SUPERIOR sound?

[Sascha Franck]

If you have been studying Apple over the last 20 or so years you will notice that they are a BIG non-proprietary format fan. For better, but sometimes for worse.

 

Such as with all those non-proprietary Logic plugins? Or with the non-proprietary AU format? And with the non-proprietary way to manage your iOS devices content without additional proprietary software? You gotta be joking, right?

[simon.a.billington]

Anyway, I believe that Midi 2.0 has been finally formalised and announced. I personally believe Apple has been waiting on that to integrate it into its own products. They already have gone ahead and introduced some features like articulation information stored on the note level. However, we have yet to see a major integration of it. If we don’t see it next major release we should definitely see it the next.

So not Logic XI but Logic XII in 2034?

 

Seriously though I remember talking to the Logic developers about MIDI 2.0 back in January 2006. And already back then, it wasn't a brand new idea. So MIDI 2.0 has been "around" for quite some time!

 

The draft has been kicked around for quite a long time. But was officially released a short while back.

[simon.a.billington]

If you have been studying Apple over the last 20 or so years you will notice that they are a BIG non-proprietary format fan. For better, but sometimes for worse.

 

Such as with all those non-proprietary Logic plugins? Or with the non-proprietary AU format? And with the non-proprietary way to manage your iOS devices content without additional proprietary software? You gotta be joking, right?

 

The Logic plugins aren't a format, AU is. Apple has released its dev kits and it costs no money for people to author to that standard. VST is a proprietary format, and it had problems and it was unstable.so they needed to get around that. It seems that creating their own standard was the best way forward. Apple also takes data security VERY SERIOUSLY. It needs to be able to lock every down so their devices don't run the risk of contacting a virus or so that sensitive information can be easily accessed. It seems all their efforts has been worth it, because their devices are among the most secure out there. But none of that is not what I was referring to.

 

OpenGL, OpenCL, PDF, MP3, MP4, for a long time Java, but not formats like Flash, or WMV as they aren't open and people probably have to pay for the price of admission.

 

It doesn't always workout. After being advocates, and possibly contributors to Java for the longest time they dropped out as it didn't end up really achieving what everybody had hoped it would achieve in terms of performance. In the world of portable technology it became a huge battery drainer as well, as did Flash. OpenGL development unfortunately happens far too slow and has been something that held back Mac advancing on the visual side of things for decades. So they developed Metal.

 

They have also created a few standards of their own such as CAF, and ProRes even AU. They were created to solve problems that no non-proprietary format was doing. They could charge for these things like other formats, but Apple doesn't. Swift was also open sourced, Apple doesn't make money from that.

 

So yeah, Apple was on the MIDI 2.0 board for a very long time. Now that it has FINALLY come to fruition, they may just set about implementing it now. It appears they already started by addressing articulations the way they have, which was part of the specification.

[Sascha Franck]

The Logic plugins aren't a format, AU is. Apple has released its dev kits and it costs no money for people to author to that standard.

 

From all I know, internally the Logic plugins are using AU technology. Heck, the EXSP and EVP were even available as VSTis back in the days. And it does cost VST developers no money, either.

 

VST is a proprietary format, and it had problems and it was unstable.so they needed to get around that.

 

Proprietary in what way? In the way that the rights are owned by Steinberg? Right. But the rights to AU are owned by Apple - so what's the difference?

Apart from that, I have not experienced either format as being more or less stable than the other. In fact, som companies are only delivering their AU versions as a sort of wrapped VST plugin (causing additional CPU overhead), simply because they got tired of having to support yet another platform.

 

Apple also takes data security VERY SERIOUSLY.

 

This is not true. They treat security issues no better than any other company. Look at macOS's firewall. Can you block outgoing traffic? No, you can't. So any program is allowed to "call home" as much as it wants unless you install some 3rd party software. The Windows firewall allows blocking of outgoing traffic.

Same is true for iOS. I have a Bose BT speaker. For stupid reasons, it tries to get permission to your mobile devices adress/phone data. With Android, I'm being asked whether I'd allow I'd allow for that (and the device will just work fine when clicking on "no"), with iOS, it's just accepted.

 

But I really don't want to get into this any further right here.

[simon.a.billington]

The Logic plugins aren't a format, AU is. Apple has released its dev kits and it costs no money for people to author to that standard.

 

From all I know, internally the Logic plugins are using AU technology. Heck, the EXSP and EVP were even available as VSTis back in the days. And it does cost VST developers no money, either.

 

VST is a proprietary format, and it had problems and it was unstable.so they needed to get around that.

 

Proprietary in what way? In the way that the rights are owned by Steinberg? Right. But the rights to AU are owned by Apple - so what's the difference?

Apart from that, I have not experienced either format as being more or less stable than the other. In fact, som companies are only delivering their AU versions as a sort of wrapped VST plugin (causing additional CPU overhead), simply because they got tired of having to support yet another platform.

 

Apple also takes data security VERY SERIOUSLY.

 

This is not true. They treat security issues no better than any other company. Look at macOS's firewall. Can you block outgoing traffic? No, you can't. So any program is allowed to "call home" as much as it wants unless you install some 3rd party software. The Windows firewall allows blocking of outgoing traffic.

Same is true for iOS. I have a Bose BT speaker. For stupid reasons, it tries to get permission to your mobile devices adress/phone data. With Android, I'm being asked whether I'd allow I'd allow for that (and the device will just work fine when clicking on "no"), with iOS, it's just accepted.

 

But I really don't want to get into this any further right here.

 

I don’t want to get into it. Suffice to say I have been using the platform back in the day and back in the day VST was notoriously unstable. Not so much now because Apple set the par with AU in terms of stability. From what I can remember is VST wasn’t free initially either. Apple also had no input on development. What made their systems more stable than PC in the early days is that the software and technology were developed hand in hand.

 

Besides Logic’s plugins are part of what sells Logic. Apple decided to make it exclusive to Logic. Without those it would just be another DAW for the most part. They are not the only developer that make their plugins exclusive to their DAW.

 

Wrapped VST is just a laziness on the developer’s part. I’ve seen the frameworks for AudioUnit and it’s not that hard. Besides on the algorithmic level it’s all pretty much the same code, C/C++.

 

In terms of security though, how often do you hear of viruses affecting Apple or people stealing information from the advice. Whatever they’re doing for the most part seems to be working. Even if it can do with additional refinement it doesn’t mean they don’t take it seriously. If they didn’t we wouldn’t be receiving security updates as often as we do!!

[Dewdman42]

Uhm, AU's are not exclusive to Logic. Logic only hosts AU's, but AU's work in many other DAW's. I think Apple just went with their own AU plugin protocol because they didn't want to rely on Steinberg and whatever licensing chaos might come out of that. They needed to define their own and basically they were defining so much more in terms of CoreAudio. Steinberg had ASIO...which was their own version of Core Audio... Apple decide to roll their own, and we're all better off for it, nowadays nobody messes around with ASIO on the Mac.. AU's where just part of all of that infrastructure and it makes complete sense they would define that as part of it, rather then relying on Steinberg's SDK and came out of the development of ASIO over time.

 

There is nothing really inferior about VST's today and people shouldn't get so hung up on it. If you are using a DAW that supports both AU and VST plugins some people would even make the case to use the VST's, if for no other reason that if you are dealing with a cross platform DAW, then you could theoretically load the same project on either mac or pc, presuming you're using all VST's for the plugins. Can't do that with Logic unfortunately. But with say, vienna ensemble pro, you can save a project file that can load on either platform and if all channels are using the VST version of the plugins, then the project should load on either platform. So that is one advantage to using VST's. Also VST instruments output midi and most hosts support that, but LogicPro does not support midi out from AU instruments.. So again..the VST version of some instruments is better because of midi out. It also turns out some AU instruments send the midi out too somehow, but LogicPro just refuses to recognize that midi, but some other hosts can apparently...so there is that, but its outside the AU2 spec.

 

Today many people use frameworks such as JUCE to code plugins that can be built in both AU or VST formats. Its not necessarily a given that it will be an AU wrapper around VST guts. That was done in the old days a lot for legacy plugins that were already coded and working in VST form...and still can be done..but generally nowadays people mostly use frameworks and if they code their plugin the right way it can be built in either AU or VST format...no wrappers. Most of the guts is the same anyway, even when you use these wrappers its not imposing a significant CPU hit...barely anything..because the guts are still the same..its only the way the PLUGIN communicates with the host....

[stpro]

after 64 bit high precision engine post sound little improvement, now playing a little more clearly than before but, logic is still not transparent, 400 Hz and down frequencies fuzzy. listen to a protools or samplitude you will hear the difference for transparent. i don't know why, But all I know is, it's not a psychological situation.The best software team apple in the world but I think they don't take it seriously because they don't.

[Dewdman42]

Can you produce a test mix from each of those products with an explanation of how you produced the mix, that you an share a Wav file from each for us to hear the difference you claim?

[stpro]

i've tried it over and over again.now we're tired of doing the test so many years we tried.

[Dewdman42]

well sorry but I don't believe you. Logic sounds great to my ears.

[stpro]

I didn't say it's not nice, i say something different. not transparent i have a sense of darker, no clear transparent feeling.

[Dewdman42]

Please watch this all this way through and learn something..

 

 

If that doesn't convince you, then see this:

 

[stpro]

watched the first video before

thanks

[Dewdman42]

Then you already know that your human senses are entirely flawed to make the bold statements you are making about LPX inferiority. Unless you have factual empirical data..you are just blowing out meaningless internet noise

[stpro]

I would like to ask you a question, After the 64 bit audio engine, the engine was an improvement.can you hear this difference ? I can hear..it sounds a bit more high and clear.this can be heard, transparent sound can be heard this way.

[stpro]

I don't want to discuss it, I don't want to prove it i just wanted to write the difference, i heard in others

thank you

[Sascha Franck]

I don't want to discuss it, I don't want to prove it

 

Well, you started this - and now you don't want to discuss it?

Fact is: There's almost *countless* null tests around the web. And if Logics sound quality was inherently inferior, there'd be numerous forum posts and what not about it. Thing is, it's not. And yes, that is provable by something as simple as a null test.

[Tayto]

I don't want to discuss it, I don't want to prove it i just wanted to write the difference, i heard in others

thank you

You tell'im bro!!