core overloads

[Jope]

Oops... Since my reply was accidentally transmitted twice, I afterwards hid a one character difference in one of them... Who figures it out?

[Fred B]

Looks like a large field of research...

Indeed. There are many unknown variables in the equation...

.

[muses]

Hmmm... Don't overrate my knowledge of third-party stuff.... Are those AUs? I use NI's FM7 and Absynth a lot, they often take Logic out of the curve on their first note for the first time the song plays and after that behave immaculate. The script didn't change this.

Looks like a large field of research...

 

They are all AUs, except the BBE Sonic Maximizer, but I use fxpansion's AU wrapper for that, so I guess it's treated like an AU.

 

Research, indeed! I wonder if the developers are doing any research on this

[Jope]

Research, indeed! I wonder if the developers are doing any research on this

 

I think they are... But I wonder to which degree the behaviour of modern computers is still predictable especially concerning timing issues. Their hardware contains many tricks like caches and data pipes with the only purpose of "stealing" time. Buffers are pre-loaded on suspicion with data that will most probably be needed later, but if the state of the CPU and the code cause a different decision all pre-fetched data become useless and have to be replaced at the expense of speed. This concept is great for jobs that have to be done as fast as possible but not so great if results must be guaranteed for every time slice (sample).

There must be a performance headroom to guarantee this, and I doubt it is predictable precisely how much headroom is needed. What is worse, The hardware's timing and immanent traps may vary not only from G4 to G5 to Intel-Whatever, but also with every chipset and within one series of Macs that are indistinguishable from their outward appearance. There are many hardware processes running independently and asynchronously in several chips on a modern board, and sometimes a slight variation of speed a chip runs at can have noticeable effects.

Phew, what did I say? Ah, yes - Who really knows what these bloody nasty boxes are doing all the time?

[Tapeworm]

The last time I played that "Plaid" track was over a month ago. It also has a lot of frozen tracks. It played fine but once, like the another poster mentioned, as I began unfreezing tracks, my cpu started spiking and got clicks and pops...but no overload message.

 

Last night I opened the song (the stereo version) and pressed play. I noticed the bar line moving slow and choppily and my cpu and hd meters were pinned in the red and a window came up with a progress bar saying it was 'unfreezing' something. These tracks are locked and the tracks apparently had their freeze buttons engaged. It never did this before on the times I previously opened the song, so I have no idea wtf is going on.

 

I close it and opened the 5.1 surround version. As I recall, this one has no frozen tracks. Anyway this one hit me with an overload message a little ways into the song but then played fine afterwards.

 

So, I go back and open the stereo version with the script running. It behaves normally. I begin to unfreeze tracks......I have unfrozen all of them and my machines is running the tune fine. I'm thinking...oh, maybe this script does do something after all.

 

I reboot and open Logic without the scipt and open the song. I begin unfreezing tracks......and I unfreeze all of them...and my machine is still running! So its not the script. And why was my machine freaking out when I played this tune unfreezing tracks a month ago and not now?

 

Bottom line. Machines are supposed to be predictable and consistent in behaviour. I believe that these machines are alive, have a will of their own and subject to mood swings. I'm calling in a priest and asking him to bring the holy water.

[OddTime]

And why was my machine freaking out when I played this tune unfreezing tracks a month ago and not now?

 

Maybe the location of the audio files on the disk have changed for the better since then? (either through defrag or maybe even OS X's built-in disk optimization)?

 

In a related (but opposite) example, I've had projects that ran fine, and come back to work on them weeks later. Adding 1 extra audio track (and nothing else) suddenly caused disk i/o bottlenecks. My guess is that the newly added track was located in a bad location on the hard drive relative to the other tracks that required a lot of seek time for the drive heads.

 

I'm looking forward to trying the script myself. Thanks for pointing it out logician!

[carrmar]

I believe it is true that there are many variables. However, these overload problem have been around for WAY too F*@#ing long.

 

I do not believe the few people posting, "I never have overload problems."

 

I'll just say it: I think they work for Apple/Emagic.

 

Everyone that I know has overloads. Logic's code needs to be dissected. It has NOTHING to do with the machines that run it, because the problem is on G4s, G5s, and Intels.

 

Sometimes Logic gets my blood boiling, but then I have to remember what it was like trying to use FL Studio (which aint a bad program overall, actually) to edit audio.

[nickweston]

as someone who has used Logic for about 8 years, I'm blown away at the acumen some of you (see above) have in dealing with scripts (I'm 100% ignorant), etc.

 

this is a completely useless post other than to vent-

 

why the *(&^(*^ should we be writing scripts for an Apple app so it works?

 

latency, overloads, this is not a science for sure. This makes me miss racking up a reel of tape and hitting RECORD!

 

(ok, not really)

 

kudos to all you geniuses, Apple should just HIRE you and make this crap go AWAY so we can make music!

[Jope]

this is a completely useless post other than to vent-!

 

Better now?

 

Do you remember the days when on 33MHz PCs the mouse pointer was jumping over the screen while on an 8MHz Atari ST it was gliding smoothly? It didn't mean the Atari ST was faster, but both its hardware and its BIOS were made for use with a mouse, and the PC... Wasn't really.

Apple Computers (or PCs) aren't especially made for calculating sounds but for many purposes. Nowadays they are mind-boggingly fast, but as I wrote earlier they don't work as steadily as one would expect. The high speed masks this inconstancy because within a given time all necessary calculations are most probably finished. Also, that's what buffers are for: They can be filled with various speeds and emptied following a constant clock. This concept works most probably hassle free. And sometimes it doesn't. And larger buffers introduce higher latency.

You are right: It is funny (if you tend to laugh rather than to rant and rave) that you need an Apple script to help an Apple application to run. If it's any comfort to you, the script did nothing on my machine.

But the only real solution would be a machine that is mainly an audio DSP machine with some attached human interface devices such as graphics, keyboards and so on and an operating system that doesn't support internet, multiple users, iPhoto, games, file permission ballup and what not. A single purpose machine.

Who buys that? Few rich musicians.

[putte]

But the only real solution would be a machine that is mainly an audio DSP machine ...

 

.. what they could do is to give the user the option to say: "dear osX-computer. before i install osX i want to tell you that this machine has one purpose: musicmaking. i´ll be using Logic Pro, and that´s it. please configure yourself in a way that all the things i don´t need don´t get in my way. would you please?"

 

that would be nice ..

 

putte

[OddTime]

I have to concur with Jope; the script didn't really work for me either. I did get a few less core audio overloads it seemed (but I still got them), and the load times for my projects was waaaay longer. So long that it was more annoying than the CAO's. Some plugin's took forever to load up.

 

what they could do is to give the user the option to say: "dear osX-computer. before i install osX i want to tell you that this machine has one purpose: musicmaking.

 

If only!

[Tapeworm]

You forgot to add "with sugar on top"

 

I won't pretend to be anywhere near as knowledgable as you veteran powerusers, just telling what I see.

While my system, thankfully, seems to only be affected by the odd anomalous overload message, my machine will still play the affected arrangement smoothly after a playthrough.

 

And yet some folks with more powerful systems than my macbook say they are getting terrible cpu spiking with no more than a handful of tracks.

 

While this script did nothing for me either, some are singing its praises as a dramatic cure. It just makes me wonder how these machines made by the same manufacturer could be running so differently. Can it be all blamed on their peripheral hardware?

[physonect]

Well, just to put my 2 cents in...i've been working on a track since Logic 8 came out that, after adding a certain number of tracks has *never* played through on the first run after loading Logic without multiple core overloads.

 

After running the now famous applescript in this thread it played without any problems at all from start to finish, after a cold boot!

 

Thank you

 

(and a wag of the finger to Apple for making us go through this!)

[robgb]

I registered for this forum simply to say THANK YOU for this script. I have a core 2 duo mac with 1 gig of ram and have been struggling with Logic overloads from day one.

 

I'm running about 15 tracks right now with multiple plug-ins on each and every time the play head hits a complex patch of midi info, it craps out on me, the cpu meter spiking both processors in the red.

 

After using the script that was posted, only one cpu spikes -- briefly, once or twice -- and I get no overloads whatsoever. This is a major change for me and has me truly loving an app that I was already liking a lot (I'm a PC convert, formerly Nuendo user).

 

So THANK YOU again, for this. It works beautifully.

 

rgb

[grimepoch]

Things to consider:

 

1. When you boot up your machine, the RAM is very clean requiring no swapping. Even with 4 Gig of RAM, I see OSX filling it up with stuff as you load programs. It's not going to just unload every library, it will keep some of them there. The longer the machine is on, the more the RAM gets more stuff into it. This means when loading up projects there is going to be some swapping on occasion. However, once loaded things seem to settle down. (OSX tries to keep a certain amount of memory available). To see what is going on, go into the activity monitor and look at the 'System Memory' page. Here, you can see how many page ins and page outs that have occured. If you see any value for Page in then your machine is swapping memory in and out to disk. This will affect performance if you are running and this happens.

 

2. When you boot your machine, not all libraries you need will be dynamically loaded in memory. Therefore, in these instances, you'll have more to load then you typically do if your machine has been running for awhile. This is why sometimes things seem slower on the first load on a freshly booted system. I am not sure if this is the case with Logic as well when it first uses a plugin, however, I notice that the first note that is sounded causes a hickup on occasion the first time an instrument is played, after that is seems to run fine.

 

3. Even when Logic is the only thing you think you have running, this is NOT the case. Open up the activity monitor and take a look at all the things running. There are LOTS of things happening on your computer, just not at high utilizations or all the time. We are talking about an environment that we are trying to use real time. What if spotlight was updating something to disk? What if the network card is polling? What if there is incoming traffic to your computer that is broadcast even if your computer does nothing with it? The operating system has many many daemons that run and do things all the time. By tuning the NICE setting you can get better performance in SOME scenarios and not in others. This is why they do not automatically do it. In this case it seems a lot of people are seeing better performance as a whole. This is good. For those that are not, your issue is with something different in my opinion and might be masking another problem you didn't know was also troubling you. I have seen some interesting issues slow down DAWs over the years, and to be honest, they were not always easy to find. For instance:

 

- Video card too slow, screen redraws were killing performance.

- FW bus was saturated with too much on it. Caused all sorts of glitching when using external inputs. Bought new firewire card and moved drives to it, problems went away.

- FW800 bus on my G5 if ANYTHING was attached to it, system performance dropped. (Not the case on my MacPro Tower).

- Too many USB devices sending realtime midi messages, killed performance.

- Different audio interfaces behave A LOT different based on settings in logic. The drivers are just not as efficient for all brands. (Motu has been rock solid for me)

- Creating an aggregate device with the built in sound and say an 896HD caused HUGE problems. It seemed that CoreAudio was sample aligning the audio between both and it just killed the performance of the machine. This still does not work right for me.

 

I say all this to reiterate, real-time operation is affected by a plethora of different things. Each of us could experience different limitations by different configurations.

 

4. EXS uses some special techniques to address more than 4G of memory. Since we do not know how this is happening, changing the schedule priority of Logic may affect how it behaves with EXS instruments. It is my belief they'd need a helper app for the extra memory and handshake between the two. If this is the case, they'd both need to be niced. HOWEVER, I have not experimented with EXS to see if this is the case. I really have no clue how they are doing it. I only mention this to get people thinking about it.

 

5. All plugins run in the same process as Logic, unless as stated you are rewiring them in. They just run in separate threads it appears (some may run in the same thread as others, I haven't seen a consistent pattern to the thread count as I add instances)

 

6. Logic IS inconsistent with CPU usage and I too am not sure why. Sometimes it's harking on one processor to the point it redlines. Then I stop and start and all of a sudden everything is smooth. Everytime I load project up, the CPU usage is kind of random in the beginning. Eventually it smooths out. Just last night Logic got so slow, I have no idea what I broke. I restarted the machine and it worked great again. I was messing with the VirusTI plugin and I think something in there broke it. I plan on trying the nice setting to see if I can help it some more. Even a tiny bit of help would be nice. It is possible different plugins can present different challenges for Logic. This is CLEARLY the case with UAD plugins. Running at 512 buffer size, I can say without doubt that DigitalPerformer handles more UAD plugs per project than Logic. I am not sure why, but every test I have done shows this. There is something strange going on and I never see it unless I have a bunch of UAD plugs used. Which, mind you, is absolutely stupid because the whole POINT of the UAD plugs is to offload the processing hit to the cards (I run two of them). I am still tracking this one down.

 

7. Sometimes, Logic just stops playing for no reason. I hit the space bar and it starts back up.

 

In closing, I will say this. I think Logic is great and that is the reason I have switched over to it recently from Digital Performer. Even with the redlines. and occasional hangups, loss of sound, stuttering, or whatever other craziness I encounter, overall for the most part it lets me do what I want, and that is write music. Being a programmer myself, the scope of Logic is insane. Especially when you consider the programming skills and added code of all the plugins that could affect Logic as well. Does it need work? Yes. But those saying it is unusable or poorly written software, or that you can't use it real time, well, I'd say you've got some learning and experimenting to do. Or, if you don't feel it is worth your time, switch to something else. Go with what works for you. I've used Cakewalk, ProTools, Cubase, Digital Performer, Abelton Live, Reason, Samplitude, Ardour, Voyetra and on and on and here I am with Logic and loving it. It's amazing and things like Vocal Comping are just right on the ball with my thinking. Just last night I finished a song with 36 tracks (2 being vocals) and the rest being soft synths and I didn't have to freeze anything. It plays with no problem and no glitching.

 

So, THANK YOU for the idea of renicing!

[robgb]

Amen, brother. The more I use Logic, the more I love it. And, like you, I've used just about every DAW you can think of. None of them allowed me to be as instantly creative as Logic does.

 

I had only planned to give it a trial run before going back to Nuendo. Guess who won't be going back...

 

rgb

[grimepoch]

Heh, I was the same way! I was VERY aggravated with DP at the moment. Using soft synths in DP is painful compared to Logic. That and automatic delay compensation does not work in DP in busses for a handful of plugins that I use (confirmed by Motu). So I was like, hey look, something new, I'll try it! I really did not like logic Express 7.2 so I was very skeptical. I'm glad I doubted myself!

 

 

Let me add one thing. DO NOT RUN FIREFOX/SAFARI while using any DAW. Web browsers eat memory and processor like it's going out of style. Nothing makes me smack myself more than when I am like "Why is this running slow?" and then look, oh, doh, it's because I have a browser open.

[edubz]

Hey Jon Tapeworm ---

 

1. As gregj says ; "...it is just telling scheduler (the OS part that gives CPU time to processes/threads) - to favor Logic, or anything that has high priority. ..."

 

2. yes. Its essentially a helper script for Logic - LP8 isnt permanently hijacked or hacked. gregj suggests opening the script after launching logic, but mine opens Logic and sits in the background until I quit it - after closing Logic. There are a few options when saving the script as an Application - see below from the Apple Script Help Menu; (I saved mine as Stay Open)

 

========================

To save a script as an application:

- Choose File > Save.

- Choose a location in which to save the file.

- In the Save dialog, choose "application" from the File Format pop-up menu.

- Enter a name for the script (".app" is the filename extension).

- Select any combination of options:

 

Run Only: Saves the application in a non-editable format. IMPORTANT: You will not be able to edit this script again if you choose Run Only.

 

Startup Screen: Displays dialog with the text from the script's Description field when the script is run. The dialog will also contain Run and Quit buttons that allow the user to stop or continue the script execution.

 

Stay Open: Causes the application to remain active until you quit it. Choose this option if the script contains an idle handler.

 

Requires Classic: Choose this option if you want the application to run on Mac OS 9 systems.

 

- Click Save.

 

=========================

3. I havent gone near Terminal.

 

4. I never use the automator - I have no idea. This is a script you write and make yourself, a custom app. - and its SO easy - you'll be glad you did! -- those nasty red CPU spikes will dissappear in the CPU meter and overall the level will (should) look lower.

 

5. Good Luck, and let us know how you get on ----

 

Cheers,

 

John.

 

Hi, When I use the script it opens up logic 8. How do you make this work for logic 7?

 

also

 

Stay Open: Causes the application to remain active until you quit it. Choose this option if the script contains an idle handler.

 

does it contain this idle handler you speak of?

 

edit : I figured out if I put "logic pro 7" it opens up logic, but then. I get this from the scrpit

[comeandgoband]

this scripts rules.

 

seriously.

[edubz]

This is a picture of my CPU with the script running.

 

This is two instances of EXS pianos running simultaneously (using the environment). They are being sent through only one bus which has compression, eq, and an instance of space designer.

 

I running a 4-core Mac Pro with enough RAM.[/img]

 

What does this script do again?

 

wow, I dont know what the script really does, but what are your other processors suppose to be doing ???????

 

does this really work? Why do I get this error?

 

 

Would this script runs with Logic Pro 7? Do i need to change Logic Pro to Logic Pro 7? Please do help.

 

thanks

 

Cheers

 

David

 

David,

 

Both the script and the application "Nicer" control a system process hierarchy. The sublevel processe's version (Logic incuded) are irrelevant.

 

-CZ

 

Whats nicer? Im confused I keep getting these messages

[zeeb]

Hi, When I use the script it opens up logic 8. How do you make this work for logic 7?

 

also

 

Stay Open: Causes the application to remain active until you quit it. Choose this option if the script contains an idle handler.

 

does it contain this idle handler you speak of?

 

edit : I figured out if I put "logic pro 7" it opens up logic, but then. I get this from the scrpit

 

hey edubz ----

 

...I havent tried it in logic 7 -- i had no overload probs there. no idea why your gettng the dialog, but L7 could be a whole other world than L8. If your Logic 7 is ok already -- dont try fixing it any better - know what i mean?!

 

the idle handler >>> sounds like a book. nah - no idea what it is.... anyone?!

 

Good Luck E, -- let us know how you get on ----

 

Cheers,

 

J.

[YamahaDM2000]

wow...this thread's come a long way...

[edubz]

[/quote

 

hey edubz ----

 

...I havent tried it in logic 7 -- i had no overload probs there. no idea why your gettng the dialog, but L7 could be a whole other world than L8. If your Logic 7 is ok already -- dont try fixing it any better - know what i mean?!

 

the idle handler >>> sounds like a book. nah - no idea what it is.... anyone?!

 

Good Luck E, -- let us know how you get on ----

 

Cheers,

 

J.

 

 

yes, but if this script really does work with a program it should work with another program no?

[carrmar]

Edubz,

 

That picture of my CPU meter is an example of the script not doing what people say it is supposed to do. There is no distribution going on.

 

When I asked, "What is this supposed to do again(?)," I was being sarcastic.

[carrmar]

...but its cool to see people trying things. Humans are pretty resilient, eh?

[nagal]

Edubz,

 

That picture of my CPU meter is an example of the script not doing what people say it is supposed to do. There is no distribution going on.

 

When I asked, "What is this supposed to do again(?)," I was being sarcastic.

 

The nice command has nothing to do with load distribution, its about altering process priority. Processes with a higher priority get more CPU time than others (in theory).

[carrmar]

I know.

 

The only reason I have cared about these "core overload" discussions is because the script was originally being (wrongly) touted as a cure for overloads and a way to maximize distribution.

 

Yeah, it prioritizes.

[nagal]

I know.

 

The only reason I have cared about these "core overload" discussions is because the script was originally being (wrongly) touted as a cure for overloads and a way to maximize distribution.

 

Yeah, it prioritizes.

 

Ahhh, Never saw any comments about it increasing the distribution efficiency. It has helped me cut down on the number of Overloads I get but they are not completely gone.

[edubz]

as someone who has used Logic for about 8 years, I'm blown away at the acumen some of you (see above) have in dealing with scripts (I'm 100% ignorant), etc.

 

this is a completely useless post other than to vent-

 

why the *(&^(*^ should we be writing scripts for an Apple app so it works?

 

latency, overloads, this is not a science for sure. This makes me miss racking up a reel of tape and hitting RECORD!

 

(ok, not really)

 

kudos to all you geniuses, Apple should just HIRE you and make this crap go AWAY so we can make music!

 

i hear you, professionals should not be left to run scripts and hacks to get more performance or more song back ups in logic 8.

 

still though, for some reasons or others there are hidden stuff a regular use just would not know about.

 

I also agree that the apple is doing a horrendous job of support. Apple is a multi million (if not billion) dollar corporation. Yet if it wasnt for people who get paid nothing to write scripts, this thread might be alot long.

 

still interested to see if this helps me, but the script doesnt work for me either

[Spectacle]

I'd be curious to see how many of you who are experiencing overload difficulties are either:

 

- PPC chip Mac owners

- multi-core Mac owners (4cores+ = beyond the two-on-one of a Core 2 Duo)

- users of Logic 7 before upgrading to Logic 8

 

Although there seem to be plenty of G5 users who are as happy as clams, others seem to be having difficulties. As for multi-core types, there seems to be more trouble here for some of you than even your two-core, one-chip brethren. The GearSlutz forum has quite a bit of talk about inability to spread power over the various cores as being a bigger problem there than with, for example, MacBookPros.

 

But the previous owner point is a bit of a different question, as I wonder if some of the concerns would be less pronounced if combined with previous experience before the upgrade to version 8. Did any of you that are speaking up here about your displeasure with the overloads (Humberto not included, MHRIP) use Logic 7 with any frequency? Did several of you? Most of you? All of you?

 

I'm not saying that the complaints/concerns WOULD necessarily be less if you had, but I can tell you for absolute certain that my experience with Logic 8 has been that of a MUCH more stable app than Logic 7. I experienced overloads quite a bit in 7.2, and they are quite truthfully not an issue here at all. All I get is the occasional same one-time VI spike when first pushing play after a cold boot. But just once, and just on that first project -- so it's like an added 2 seconds to my initial load process, nothing more.

 

Those of you who have used both 7 and 8 extensively, what's your take on the overload situation? Better now or worse?

 

And no, Carrmar, I do not work for Apple. I'm stuck here in the ass-cold tundra of central New York, wishing I was in California.