Elastic Time - It changes everything.

[sayenex]

just read some more posts on this.

 

Yeah, so maybe you can stretch and manipulate audio like this in logic, but obviously, it's just not as easy as it is in protools.

 

the way that guy did it in the demo, it looks way easier and better than going into the sample editor or stretching bits out to endpoints or what-not, or turning something into an apple loop.

 

by the way, I've never made an apple loop. or done time stretching, not that I don't know how, but mainly because it's been easier/quicker for me to just get another take of drums or guitar, than go into an audio region and fix it in Logic.

 

If I had the ease of use that this demo shows for elastic audio, I could see myself using the editing features a lot more. It looks really easy, and quick, not to mention fun.

 

but when it's all said and done, looping audio and playing around with time stretching etc. isn't going to enable me to all of a sudden write cool kick ass new hit songs, but it is a cool feature that I would love to be able to do easy and quickly if I needed to.

 

I just want Logic to be the best I guess, because it's all I use. I don't want to learn pro-tools, I'm biased towards apple products these days.

 

although, I'm worried it'll be a long time until we see an update.

 

Evan

[Radley]

Laffy Taffy audio regions I'll be making hits in no time now. All the drummers will say I'm the best engineer the world over just wait............ Riiiiight

 

Peace

 

Bro, you will only be making hits if you have the ears to know what sounds good and what doesn't - neither Elastic Time nor Laffy Taffy can provide that for you. Are you up to it?

[Spunkadellic]

when pro tools (or any other daw) offers mixing that doesnt sound so muddy and lifeless (compared to mixing outboard) ill be very very impressed... not now

[Morerecords]

previous rant edited...

I would prefer audiosuite first...

Edited November 7, 2007 by Morerecords

[Morerecords]

audiosuite Edited November 7, 2007 by Morerecords

[Spectacle]

Laffy Taffy audio regions I'll be making hits in no time now. All the drummers will say I'm the best engineer the world over just wait............ Riiiiight

 

Peace

 

Bro, you will only be making hits if you have the ears to know what sounds good and what doesn't - neither Elastic Time nor Laffy Taffy can provide that for you. Are you up to it?

I think that this is precisely what he means. Sarcasm indicated by the rolled eyes at the end and the "Riiiiight".

[VSOP]

oh- and to the naysayers of stretching anything, due to degradation... how can you pass judgment without hearing it in action, sensibly at the very least, first?

 

Digi Rep had it last week. Heard it. Used It. The algo is not better than serato pitch and time. It IS quicker and easier to use tho.

 

I stated this in another post on LPH were Someone was claiming that Elastic audio made Beat Detective obsolete. Bwahahaha!

 

There is no such algo (Not even one made by the W.H.O.P.P.E.R from war games ((Would you like to play a game Dr.? ahah that s#!+ was a classic.))) that is going to let you streatch audio to a 200% length and have it sound good. Melodyde Dosent, PnT2 dont.. It just dont.

 

I think that wher people dont get this. If you are streatching amall reagons out its going to be a MAJOR LOSS OF QUALITY. Wether or not that matters to you is for you to decide.

 

There has been alot of wierd ducussion on the net regarding Logics inablility to do differnent things. There definitly seems to be a shift in the user base with the releace of 8 and were seeing this by the type of questions that are being asked.

 

ONCE AGAIN... THIS WILL NOT WORK FOR EDITING MULTITRACK DRUMS. WAAAAY TO DESTRUCTIVE TO THE CYMBOLS.

 

Is this a cool feature? yes. Is it easy to use? yes. Is it going to be some magic bullet? no. Let me guess yall were to ones who open "Othello" as kids and thought the chips would magicly flip like the commercial?

 

Cmon

MH

Edited November 7, 2007 by VSOP

[TimWheeler]

I think the major advantage here is the seamless integration, and it looks really good.

 

I do think, however, that this is old technology overall. ReCycle, basically. Doing what the Rex file format has been doing for quite awhile.

 

Long before all of this was integrated in any way we were rewiring Live! and Reason to accomplish this.

 

Yes.. the integration make it easier.

 

Logic should continue to integrate it.

 

Is elastic audio going to be a feature in LE or only the top dollar PT rigs?

 

T

[JPZ]

oh- and to the naysayers of stretching anything, due to degradation... how can you pass judgment without hearing it in action, sensibly at the very least, first?

 

Digi Rep had it last week. Heard it. Used It. The algo is not better than serato pitch and time. It IS quicker and easier to use tho.

 

I stated this in another post on LPH were Someone was claiming that Elastic audio made Beat Detective obsolete. Bwahahaha!

 

There is no such algo (Not even one made by the W.H.O.P.P.E.R from war games ((Would you like to play a game Dr.? ahah that s#!+ was a classic.))) that is going to let you streatch audio to a 200% length and have it sound good. Melodyde Dosent, PnT2 dont.. It just dont.

 

I think that wher people dont get this. If you are streatching amall reagons out its going to be a MAJOR LOSS OF QUALITY. Wether or not that matters to you is for you to decide.

 

There has been alot of wierd ducussion on the net regarding Logics inablility to do differnent things. There definitly seems to be a shift in the user base with the releace of 8 and were seeing this by the type of questions that are being asked.

 

ONCE AGAIN... THIS WILL NOT WORK FOR EDITING MULTITRACK DRUMS. WAAAAY TO DESTRUCTIVE TO THE CYMBOLS.

 

Is this a cool feature? yes. Is it easy to use? yes. Is it going to be some magic bullet? no. Let me guess yall were to ones who open "Othello" as kids and thought the chips would magicly flip like the commercial?

 

Cmon

MH

 

Thank you! You are correct sir. Finally somebody with a friggin head on their shoulders!

[Radley]

I am told that elastic time feature will be included in PT's 7.4 LE versions, to be released mid-november.

[nikkik]

I talked to a few people, and found I am completely in the dark as far as Ableton Live is considered (sorry, hate the interface, and constructing songs from loops is not my thing...thus, never saw any use for Live, which I did not care for the GUI with).

 

It seems that Digi...erm... "borrowed" what Live does. Granted, each will have it's own idiosyncrasies...for better or worse... I saw a promo for Live where they claimed it was the only app doing specific and general things with Elastic Audio (Digi calls it Elastic Time). Comparing what Live does with others put it quite a bit ahead feature-wise, as Elastic Time does for PT. Undoubtedly, others will add this..

 

As far as audio quality... LOL! Yeah, stretch something 200% and not expect it to be unusable? It is funny...there are people who proclaim how increible Melodyne is, and then those that balk and go on about how horrible even the slightest edit in Melodyne is easily noticeable and horrible. Same for those using Acid, Live, etc...ANY time/pitch algorithm will introduce "artifacting" that some will love, some will hate. Looking at Live, and playing with a PT LE included version, I can see using it for composing purposes; correcting a quick pass of an idea rather than rerecording to simply have the major transients line up to a grid for being able to map out tempo and meter changes is pretty sweet. Would never have thought of doing that! But use it on final takes for myself? No way, no how. For someone else who is too lazty to find a good drummer? You seriously think they will care if the audio is a little substandard? LOL! I'll take the $$$ for their ignorance and laziness any day!

[tyronehowe]

Well I was impressed by the Elastic audio in that video (and another video that I have seen on DD's website).

 

I'm pretty sure you can't do everything from that video in Logic.

 

... that lovely bit where he picked up a single beat and moved it around, with audio automatically compressing and expanding around it without having to perform any cuts to the audio file. Wow. I wish I could do that in Logic.

 

To those who are saying this is "just around the corner" and "in the next update" for Logic are mad. This will be a LOT of work for the Logic developers.

 

I can't see this happening until LP9 at the earliest, maybe never - and that is a shame. I would love Logic to have elastic audio.

 

But for now if I REALLY need elastic audio, the new Mbox Micro is a pretty cheap way to get it...

[tyronehowe]

It seems that Digi...erm... "borrowed" what Live does.

 

I think it was also “borrowed” from Steinberg. Cubase’s set of elastic audio tools were collectively called “Time Warp” and was introduced in SX3 (I think…)

 

Trouble is it didn’t reliably work. For no obvious reason it would add horrible, VERY noticeable artefacts to stretched audio that had previously stretched fine.

 

I know some people found it to be ok, but many came across these problems. No idea if they sorted it Cubase 4.

[Morerecords]

I have a question/ request: After all this dialog I am trying to understand the quantize audio engine in the sample editor. I absolutely love the "audio to score" feature, but:

I gotta tell you, it's not that the given parameters don't make sense, but I am really having trouble actually getting something to happen,even on a very simple highly gated breakbeat that just allows each transient + maybe 30ms more.This should be graphical.

Does anyone successfully use this quantize feature? any insight? or maybe a walk through + audio sample if you have a sec? I really am getting nothing when I use this function, my audio is exactly the same even when using extreme quanitaztion settings like 1/1...

[VSOP]

As far as audio quality... LOL! Yeah, stretch something 200% and not expect it to be unusable? ...correcting a quick pass of an idea rather than rerecording to simply have the major transients line up to a grid for being able to map out tempo and meter changes is pretty sweet. Would never have thought of doing that! But use it on final takes for myself? No way, no how. For someone else who is too lazty to find a good drummer? You seriously think they will care if the audio is a little substandard? LOL! I'll take the $$$ for their ignorance and laziness any day!

 

I am not disagreeing that this is a neat tool to be albe to try ideas out and work on arrangments in Pre Pro.. but heres the bigger problem....

 

_________

 

cut in time to me at some studio mixing a record about 3 months after PT 7.4LE with Elastic Time drops.

 

_________

 

Client: Why do my cymbols sound all swirley and strange like that.. It didnt sound like that on my MBOX. Are you sure thats not logic doing that? Ive Been Reading on the internet about Logic and Split Stereo Files....

 

Me (Cutting in): I see you have edited the drums.. Did you use Beat Detective or Elastic TIme.

 

Client: Elastic Time OF COURSE.. Its the dopest thing that I have EVER SEEN!! I swear by it.

 

Me: Thats why your cymbols sound like s#!+, see if you had BD'd it would sound like this (I play other recording of non ET'd (LOL) cmbols..)

 

Client looks puzzeled and dissapointed and doubtfull.

 

Client: But the Digi Video showed them editing Drums....

 

Me: You trust videos on the internet in issues concerning AUDIO QUALITY? Wow.

 

Cut to 3 hrs later Me alon in studio re doing drum edits from scratch.. Sure thats more Bread, but man.... sounds sucky to me!

 

MH

[Radley]

Me (Cutting in): I see you have edited the drums.. Did you use Beat Detective or Elastic TIme.

 

Client: Elastic Time OF COURSE.. Its the dopest thing that I have EVER SEEN!! I swear by it.

 

Me: Thats why your cymbols sound like s#!+, see if you had BD'd it would sound like this (I play other recording of non ET'd (LOL) cmbols..)

 

Client looks puzzeled and dissapointed and doubtfull.

 

Client: But the Digi Video showed them editing Drums....

 

Me: You trust videos on the internet in issues concerning AUDIO QUALITY? Wow.

 

Cut to 3 hrs later Me alon in studio re doing drum edits from scratch.. Sure thats more Bread, but man.... sounds sucky to me!

 

MH

 

No disrespect intended, but an idiot shouldn't be doing his own edits, no? I mean, we all have ears & know we should listen to our edits after we do them, right? The greatest editing tools in the world can ruin a recording when used wrongly, or by a non-musical person, but that should certainly not be a reason to avoid them.

[VSOP]

No disrespect intended, but an idiot shouldn't be doing his own edits, no?

 

LOL Its no disrespect to me I didnt track it, or edit it, or destroy it in any number of ways but in the end in the mix if you think they wont ask "Why?" thats crazy. I guess I just dont have the luxery or picking work only based on who did the tracking and editing.

 

Ive been on mix session where the whole multitrack has been time streatched with the Original Digi Time Compress Exp Algo and they changed everything by like 25 bpm then did vocals. When It got to mix and they could still hear the time str artifacts they asked me what was up, they had thought that sound was thier crappy MBOX.

 

I mean thats the Consumer dream Digi and mostley everyone is selling right.. do It all at home in you bedroom.

 

You dont have to have experiance or an internsip to get a 003..

 

Hopefully when I have this hypothetical convo Ill have a video cam and ill post to you tube. lol!

 

MH

[nikkik]

Well, 7.4 is out now. I have had time to play with it, and also watched the new Accelerated videos. There are ways to set things so you will not run into problems like described here, if used within reason (of course!). As an example, the cymbal thing is the result of using it the wrong way. Done properly, it should be OK for minor tuning/tweaking. I need to find some drum loops to try it with...I only loaded up some scratch vocals and played a little today (speaking of vocals...the one on the Accelerated vids is awful...who approved that? Ugh..). With the full feature set, and used properly, I do not see it being too horrible for certain things.

 

As for the guy who comes in after using an Mbox and doing his own...erm..."work" on...well...lol...LMAO!!! Yeah, fixing people's stuff like that can be $$$, if you are tolerant enough. Then again, most people that have the money to spend for correcting figure out it is better to do it right in the first place (or maybe not lol!). I think Melodyne "fixing" and editing is good $$ these days, with Beat Detectve type freelancing coming in a close second... maybe reversed, who knows.

 

Regardless, it is a neat feature. Both apps make me wish the other had this and that from the other... probably always will...

[FlowerPower]

To those who are saying this is "just around the corner" and "in the next update" for Logic are mad. This will be a LOT of work for the Logic developers.

 

I can't see this happening until LP9 at the earliest, maybe never - and that is a shame. I would love Logic to have elastic audio.

 

But for now if I REALLY need elastic audio, the new Mbox Micro is a pretty cheap way to get it...

 

Elastic Time isn't really much more than time stretching two sections at the same time, is it (on multiple tracks)? It involves being able to stretch a section without using a scissor to turn it into a separate region first, but I guess it can't be that hard to implement this has some kind of invisible background activity.

 

If I record three words - let's call them A, B and C, and want to move B to the left or right, A and C need to be timestrethced, Logic can already timestretch one region in Arrange, so doing the same thing for two regions can't be rocket science.

 

Time stretching drums may need an intelligent way to deal with not stretching transients while stretching the rest of the sound, but Logic had audio quantize in the sample editor before anyone else, and I don't think the need to avoid stretching the transient itself would hold the developers away from implementing elasticity for another year. If they do, they know that many Logic users will buy rivaling products, and I don't think Apple want that.

[tyronehowe]

Elastic Time isn't really much more than time stretching two sections at the same time, is it (on multiple tracks)? It involves being able to stretch a section without using a scissor to turn it into a separate region first, but I guess it can't be that hard to implement this has some kind of invisible background activity.

 

If I record three words - let's call them A, B and C, and want to move B to the left or right, A and C need to be timestrethced, Logic can already timestretch one region in Arrange, so doing the same thing for two regions can't be rocket science.

 

Time stretching drums may need an intelligent way to deal with not stretching transients while stretching the rest of the sound, but Logic had audio quantize in the sample editor before anyone else, and I don't think the need to avoid stretching the transient itself would hold the developers away from implementing elasticity for another year. If they do, they know that many Logic users will buy rivaling products, and I don't think Apple want that.

 

Hi FlowerPower

 

Well I think you have made a very good point! I really hope that the Logic Developers will see it the same way.

 

It IS a real pain at the moment, because you have to cut and then stretch/compress to adjacent regions. And if it’s not right? Well undo all the stretch/compress and try again.

 

Anyone surely has to admit that there’s a certain simplistic elegance to the way this is done in PT 7.4.

 

Luckily (for me) I don’t do too much audio work, mostly MIDI with software instruments, but I sure would like to “muck about” with audio using some kind “Elastic audio” toolset in Logic.

[Jope]

I know nobody asked me to drop a comment here, nor do I have to tell anything substancial... But...

To me the video showed a nervous man who was excited about a new toy, pardon, tool which enables nervous people to even faster produce that sort of music that makes me nervous... Well, if you get paid related to how much of this you can churn out within almost no time, it's a crackerjack.

 

I am happy Logic is not only focused in this direction.

[Morerecords]

Uh, we don't even have audiosuite style editing yet...

and what is up with the quantize audio engine? That was supposed to offer this finctionality but, I doubt anyone uses it...it really should have been graphical, it's tough to get results with it ...Touch tracks totally suck, we still need professional level automation... L8 developers still have the functions already promised to finish. But hopefully we will get it all.

 

And I had started out saying that you could do much of this stuff in Logic!

But: that prompted me to use the quantize audio engine, an utter joke.

 

Hey, in the meantime, you guys should checkout an app called AUdiofinder from iced audio. The beat detective is great,and it treats audio files the same way ableton does!!! and it's only 60 bucks...I set mine to be my external editor...I am still using the demo till I can pony up some cash...

[Radley]

I know nobody asked me to drop a comment here, nor do I have to tell anything substancial... But...

To me the video showed a nervous man who was excited about a new toy, pardon, tool which enables nervous people to even faster produce that sort of music that makes me nervous... Well, if you get paid related to how much of this you can churn out within almost no time, it's a crackerjack.

 

I am happy Logic is not only focused in this direction.

 

Jope,

 

Your opinion is as good as anyone else's, and I believe I understand what you are saying. I am not interested in doing "hyperbolic", over-the-top music either, but I see the elastic time feature as something that can also be used very subtly and tastefully for many different styles of music & production, as well as a time-saver in numberous situations.

 

~Rad~

[ben parsons]

i agree.

 

although i sometimes use it for the intentional artifacts, i also use it just to adjust/humanize timing, especially with rhythm parts (not in logic, in live)

[Radley]

Question: I don't own any PT software at this point, and am thinking of entering the PT 7.4 world cheaply with their MBox - do I need to wait until MBox comes with the new 7.4 software? Also, will 7.4 run on a new intel iMac?

 

Thanks,

~Rad~

[tsachs]

Elastic Time--

 

Hire some jazz musicians - get it on the first take !

 

or

 

record most people without a click track or drum machine

 

viola- Elastic Time.

 

OK really - who is the Apple Loops Utility Expert.

[tsachs]

Elastic Time--

 

Hire some jazz musicians - get it on the first take !

 

or

 

record most people without a click track or drum machine

 

viola- Elastic Time.

 

OK really - who is the Apple Loops Utility Expert.

[Radley]

I AM a jazz musician!

 

Although I appreciate the humor, this brings up an important point concerning features like elastic time, elastic audio, etc:

 

These features do nothing to make a non-musical person sound musical....if you don't have golden ears, you will not produce gold with any tool. This is not "cheating", it is only a logical extension to achieve music you can already hear in your head - if what you hear in your head is crap, elasic time will only help you produce it more efficiently! ;o)

 

~Rad~

[tsachs]

Well said. Not everyone deals with musical performance( or recording that performance (or emulating that performance)) with the same meticulous attention to certain details. Understanding EQ, db, hitpoints, compression threshold settings, and/editing at the sample level (with delay compensation) - all in the play mode - does nothing for musical inadequacy (however defined).

 

But, my fellow jazz musician, the radio proves that musical talent isn't necessary for music production. Loops, samples, midi controllers of numerous types, and the RIGHT software, coupled with several people shouting at the same time = music in this current administration (however defined.)

 

So now we have 'I suck compensation' (just kidding, just kidding, practice with a metronome) For those who don't need it, no harm done. For those who need and are musical great good done. For those who hear it and know it has artifacts, harm done; for those who don't care and use it and make millions at the same time- welcome to the American Dream. For those who care, don't use it and don't make millions but do make great music and labor to refine their skills and abilities, welcome to being a true artist/craftsperson.

 

For those who get sucked into meaningless diatribe when they should be practicing with a metronome or figuring out what Logic does do well - we have to sign off now.

[clark]

While I may agree that the Elastic Audio feature is cool, and could be (and hopefully WILL be for Logic soon) useful, I must say that it doesn't strike me as an "indispensable" feature. If you're creative you can already do much of this in Logic. In addition, if you're working with good players, it's probably not so necessary. Of course, I'm more of a player than a producer, and I can certainly respect the amount of work this might circumvent for some of you. In addition, it actually (in a really odd manner), makes me a little edgy.....sort of like Beat Detective/SoundReplacer, in that....it seems to diminish the necessity for actual "talent" from the players. (NOTHING like having all of your drums ridiculously tweaked and tuned only to go in with an imbecile who defaults to automatically replacing ALL of your sounds instead of ever even considering mixing the drums, because that's just his MO!) BTW, I don't care what anyone says, when you commit yourself to aligning EVERYTHING to a "perfect" grid, you will inevitably lose some amount of feel. "Feel", is what happens in between the clicks, and anyone that doesn't already have the knowledge to respect and appreciate that probably won't be slobbering over themselves for this, because in order to make a truly "great" project, it's STILL going to take some work....not just a software feature. It's not really that easy....no matter what a computer can do for you.

 

As a drummer who prides himself on his ability to play with a click, I can still save someone whatever time it may take to even use this "revolutionary" feature. It essentially amounts to the various "auto-tune" programs for pitched things, like vocals........it can be useful if you have to make a diamond out of s---, but isn't it much better if you can at least start with a nice piece of coal? I can already play in time,and I prefer to associate with other musicians who can do the same, so it really doesn't blow me away.

 

At any rate, I don't anticipate that any reputable producers/editors/mixers, etc. are really shaking in their boots over this. If I had to record a woefully inept effort, I would certainly LOVE to have this as an option. If that's ALL I did, I' would absolutely KILL for it.