Elastic Time - It changes everything.

[Radley]

Sorry guys, but I think you're missing it. I have been a successful studio player for many years in LA, and I can certainly play with a click (been to a tracking session lately?) We are talking about the ability to change things after all the recording is over (when needed), and yes, even the best performances can sometimes be made better (assuming the man behind the editor has the ears & taste to know the difference). The creative process does not end because the musicians go home - we're not recording live to 2-track anymore.

 

~Rad~

[dkgross]

I've gotten into NOT using a clik much these days. [/i]

[lwilliam]

The creative process does not end because the musicians go home - we're not recording live to 2-track anymore.

 

~Rad~

 

How true....! A recording is as much a creation as is the actual performance in today's productions. I think that concept started somewhere around Sgt Pepper.

 

I don't get to work with the "A list" musicians. I get the indie musicians and newcomer artists. I need all the tools I can get to make them sound as good as they can.

 

They come in now EXPECTING autotune and EXPECTING me to make them sound better than real life. It's part of the job.

 

A tool that makes that job easier is always welcome.

[Ashermusic]

It doesn't lessen Logic or its users to simply tip the hat to Digi and admit they have pulled off something of a coup here, because they have.

 

As has Logic with Swipe Comping, which when it is fully realized, will be like nothing in any other app.

[mpmusicny]

 

This is the money quote, because unfortunately with Logic, these great ideas often never do get fully realized. Call it the Freeze Syndrome, maybe...

[Ashermusic]

 

This is the money quote, because unfortunately with Logic, these great ideas often never do get fully realized. Call it the Freeze Syndrome, maybe...

 

Freeze Tracks are fully realized IMHO.

 

Automation, err.......

[mpmusicny]

Nah, not even close..

 

How about -

 

Being able to freeze just certain regions

 

When you want to edit a frozen track, Logic doesn't mess around with "that track is frozen.." etc., it just unfreezes, does the edit, and freezes back again.

 

Like wise when you're inserting time etc, the whole freeze unfreeze should be automatic. Why should the user even have to be bothered with the question?

[mpmusicny]

OK, one more comes to mind - how about assigning to certain cpu-intensive tracks the status - "perma-frost" so that after recording or editing, these tracks are always automatically re-frozen.

 

My opinion? I think freeze was developed in the pre-Apple days (not sure when it was actually released. I think Apple only has it in L8 begrugungly - they don't sell bigger and better machines by helping you do more on older, slower ones..

[marcel72]

My rig with Logic, unlimited internal track count:

 

Logic, MOTU 2408, 2x Apogee Rosettas (24ch in and out) - about $7500.

 

My rig with PT, with 192 internal tracks:

 

PTHD, HD3 card, 192 I/O, 1x Apogee Rosetta, 1x Apogee X-HD card (same track count) - about $22000.

 

Would take a lot of neat little DAW gimmicks to swing that equation for me.

 

Why does everyone always overlook this critical element in the discussion?

[humberto]

Breakthrough?

Other programs have had this for years.

 

http://www.generate-music.com/QT/AudioWiggleSX3.mov

 

logic is behind, and ever more so with logic 8, in the audio (and now other) departments.

 

Logic still does not have non destructive audio editing, and no split stereo files have been removed, (along with other things like vst support because of apples corporate discussions, Logic is not behind developed as a music program, but rather as an application to get apple to sell more hardware. What we say is secondary (if not ignored altogether).

[hmurchison]

Breakthrough?

Other programs have had this for years.

 

http://www.generate-music.com/QT/AudioWiggleSX3.mov

 

logic is behind, and ever more so with logic 8, in the audio (and now other) departments.

 

Logic still does not have non destructive audio editing, and no split stereo files have been removed, (along with other things like vst support because of apples corporate discussions, Logic is not behind developed as a music program, but rather as an application to get apple to sell more hardware. What we say is secondary (if not ignored altogether).

 

VST was removed because of "Corporate Discussions"? What the hell does that mean? Apple dropped VST because Steinberg's documentation of VST sucked. I wouldn't waste my developer time trying to hack together VST host support without having excellent tools. Logic Pro is developed for Audio Professionals...please don't delude yourself into thinking that, out of the millions of Macs sold per quarter, even %10 are being used as DAW. Send Apple an email stating this...I'm sure they need a good laugh every now and then.

 

Apple just delivered the most significant OS update in their history. They just aligned Logic Pro with the OS at a low level and for the most part it's a stable app with good legacy support. Now they can move onto adding more features but they have to ensure the product is working. Relax...get rid of the paranoia and conspiracy theory and make music. Apple's value has quadrupled in the last 3 years...clearly they know what they're doing.

[humberto]

Breakthrough?

Other programs have had this for years.

 

http://www.generate-music.com/QT/AudioWiggleSX3.mov

 

logic is behind, and ever more so with logic 8, in the audio (and now other) departments.

 

Logic still does not have non destructive audio editing, and no split stereo files have been removed, (along with other things like vst support because of apples corporate discussions, Logic is not behind developed as a music program, but rather as an application to get apple to sell more hardware. What we say is secondary (if not ignored altogether).

 

VST was removed because of "Corporate Discussions"? What the hell does that mean? Apple dropped VST because Steinberg's documentation of VST sucked. I wouldn't waste my developer time trying to hack together VST host support without having excellent tools. Logic Pro is developed for Audio Professionals...please don't delude yourself into thinking that, out of the millions of Macs sold per quarter, even %10 are being used as DAW. Send Apple an email stating this...I'm sure they need a good laugh every now and then.

 

Apple just delivered the most significant OS update in their history. They just aligned Logic Pro with the OS at a low level and for the most part it's a stable app with good legacy support. Now they can move onto adding more features but they have to ensure the product is working. Relax...get rid of the paranoia and conspiracy theory and make music. Apple's value has quadrupled in the last 3 years...clearly they know what they're doing.

 

no, VST support was fine in logic for windows, and mac when it worked. People were happily making music with VST instruments until apple gobble up emagic..

 

Then, we lost support for an ENTIRE plugin base, in favor of APPLES format. No other reason to dead an entire plugin.

 

We are now FORCED to use a VST wrapper to use these plugings. These plugins cant ever run on their own, and there are some VST plugings out there I would love to use.

 

This apple update is just the same old tiger,panther, jaguar with some new bells and whistles.

 

and while apple sells more ipods, and fan boys use this as a way to say "look, apple has more market share" , but the truth of the matter, logic has been striped DOWN since logic 6 and 7, its not aimed at the same target market it once was.

 

yes apples market share has gotten bigger, that doesnt mean they are headed in the right direction.

[dkgross]

or..PERHAPS...the VST deveolpers..seeing the masive growing market share in Apple, and a declining loss in THEIR market share, will create Audio Units versions of their plug-ins.

[Ashermusic]

Nah, not even close..

 

How about -

 

Being able to freeze just certain regions

 

When you want to edit a frozen track, Logic doesn't mess around with "that track is frozen.." etc., it just unfreezes, does the edit, and freezes back again.

 

Like wise when you're inserting time etc, the whole freeze unfreeze should be automatic. Why should the user even have to be bothered with the question?

 

1. I is track based by design, not region based and has been since day one so that does not make it only partially realized, just not what YOU would like it to be.

 

2. Because believe it or not, users sometimes should have to make some decisions and do some work. Maybe I don't want it to re-freeze as I am doing some further editing. I neither expect or want the app to do everything for me.

[humberto]

or..PERHAPS...the VST deveolpers..seeing the masive growing market share in Apple, and a declining loss in THEIR market share, will create Audio Units versions of their plug-ins.

 

 

yes, they should create AU versions of plugins, but WE, the end user, the consumer should NOT be forced to HAVE to use the AU format. VST support should have still be included.

 

But because of corporate apple, they decided its best to do what they did, and we quietly said nothing. Those that did were labeled as outcasts by the apple lovers.

 

Its funny how people ask for new features, and want it, but as logic 8 has shown, logic has been downgraded to a consumer application that looks like garage band.

[mpmusicny]

I'm sorry, Jay but these strike me as really dogmatic answers

 

1. I is track based by design, not region based and has been since day one so that does not make it only partially realized, just not what YOU would like it to be.

 

I'm suggesting improvements to a Logic feature - useful ones, I happen to think - you're saying they shouldn't be implemented because - they deviate from the original concept????

 

2. Because believe it or not, users sometimes should have to make some decisions and do some work. Maybe I don't want it to re-freeze as I am doing some further editing. I neither expect or want the app to do everything for me.

 

..The short answer to that is - that's what preferences and project settings are for. I don't know, there's me thinking that the whole point was about improving our workflow, and NOT creating extra unnecessary work. For me, I cannot recall the last time, after performing a "snip time" ( for instance) that i did NOT want my tracks immediately re-frozen. And i'm going to strongly suggest that that is the case for a lot of people, with a lot of the Arrange window editing that they do. And for those occasions when you do want something left unfrozen afterwards, you should be able to either set it as a preference of project setting that you want it to be that way (if it just so happens that your workflow puts you in that situation a lot), or, if it only happens just once in a while, just re-freeze manually those few times. And for those special occasions, i would have yet another Freeze improvement for you - add Freeze to the Group options, so that if you have to unfreeze 15 tracks to make an edit, you don't have to immediately remember what those 15 tracks were to refreeze them, just press one of their freeze buttons, and they all light up. Great time saver, I would think.

 

Except, since Freeze is already "fully realized" i guess we don't need it...

[stephentrask]

I AM a jazz musician!

 

Although I appreciate the humor, this brings up an important point concerning features like elastic time, elastic audio, etc:

 

These features do nothing to make a non-musical person sound musical....if you don't have golden ears, you will not produce gold with any tool. This is not "cheating", it is only a logical extension to achieve music you can already hear in your head - if what you hear in your head is crap, elasic time will only help you produce it more efficiently! ;o)

 

~Rad~

 

Good point. However, a good time stretch program, like Serrato Pitch and Time, can be useful to save a great performance. Working in film, for instance, I have captured performances while producing demos that have that special something but for whatever reason don't fit the final cut. Sometimes the scene changes. Sometimes for one reason or another it makes sense to change the key.

 

And, another point, some features need to be left to third party developers so that they keep developing. I would prefer the Logic code writers to spend their resources improving the interface and the workflow of DAW then to develop more plug-ins.

[tsachs]

stephen,

 

great points. so many people use DAWs for such different goals that it would be difficult to make any app perfect.

 

I greatly appreciate the 'garagebandness' of Logic. From a simple one track sound bite to a 128 track mixed in surround sound movie score, Logic still has it's core strengths. It really is amazing that Logic with the all of the power of the Environment still intact (see Michael Brecker's EWi environment) can take on the form of Garageband when needed and can expand to great mixing desk. That is powerful.

 

I would love Apple to subcontract third-party developers so that my cost is low. Some of these third-party plugs are ridiculous expensive. At least for the smaller shops. Perhaps Apple branded/included plugs have a place for us, even if they may not be as effective as a third party plug-ins designed for major production houses. So the desire to have 'every' feature included is not so off balance.

[Beer Moth]

stephen,

 

is amazing that Logic with the all of the power of the Environment still intact (see Michael Brecker's EWi environment) .

 

Where can I see this?

Sounds interesting!

[AllyMusicGirl]

"Feel", is what happens in between the clicks...

 

Quite possibly the most intelligent thing ever said on this forum - sans David's wit and wisdom!

[tsachs]

http://virtualinstrumentsmag.com/issue/issue12.html

 

be prepared for your mind to be boggled

 

http://www.ibrecker.com/

[tsachs]

it is a 22 page screen grab

 

http://www.ibrecker.com/whitty_ewi.html

[Ashermusic]

I'm sorry, Jay but these strike me as really dogmatic answers

 

1. I is track based by design, not region based and has been since day one so that does not make it only partially realized, just not what YOU would like it to be.

 

I'm suggesting improvements to a Logic feature - useful ones, I happen to think - you're saying they shouldn't be implemented because - they deviate from the original concept????

 

2. Because believe it or not, users sometimes should have to make some decisions and do some work. Maybe I don't want it to re-freeze as I am doing some further editing. I neither expect or want the app to do everything for me.

 

..The short answer to that is - that's what preferences and project settings are for. I don't know, there's me thinking that the whole point was about improving our workflow, and NOT creating extra unnecessary work. For me, I cannot recall the last time, after performing a "snip time" ( for instance) that i did NOT want my tracks immediately re-frozen. And i'm going to strongly suggest that that is the case for a lot of people, with a lot of the Arrange window editing that they do. And for those occasions when you do want something left unfrozen afterwards, you should be able to either set it as a preference of project setting that you want it to be that way (if it just so happens that your workflow puts you in that situation a lot), or, if it only happens just once in a while, just re-freeze manually those few times. And for those special occasions, i would have yet another Freeze improvement for you - add Freeze to the Group options, so that if you have to unfreeze 15 tracks to make an edit, you don't have to immediately remember what those 15 tracks were to refreeze them, just press one of their freeze buttons, and they all light up. Great time saver, I would think.

 

Except, since Freeze is already "fully realized" i guess we don't need it...

 

Maybe this is a semantical issue re "fully realized.". I am not saying that Freeze could be improved or that these and other suggestions are not good. If that is the standard however of fully realized that nothing in the world is fully realized.

 

Apple,and before it Emagic, had a reputation, deservedly IMHO, of implementing a feature halfway and saying that they knew there were flaws in it that they would get to later and never doing it.

 

Freeze in Logic, and remember they were the first to do it, is IMHO exactly what they intended it to be and works exactly as they intended it to work. So in that sense it is fully realized.

 

You are of course free to want it to be different and to ask for further enhancements. My guess is that because the new Intel Macs are so darned powerful Freeze will be less and less of an important issue for many so I suspect they will not be putting their efforts into it.

[mpmusicny]

You are of course free to want it to be different and to ask for further enhancements. My guess is that because the new Intel Macs are so darned powerful Freeze will be less and less of an important issue for many so I suspect they will not be putting their efforts into it.

 

 

Defintely. What i use it for much more these days ( I just got an 8-Core ) is freezing tracks with long evolving lines like pads so that you don't have to play from 8 measures back to hear what the notes will sound like when you get to the point you want to work from. i find it invaluable for that..

[camillo jr]

Reading this thread with much interest... I record a lot of singer songwriters In Logic and I often end up being the band. For arranging those tracks, Logic is great. But for editing the less-than-stellar guitar parts... ouch. I've got one client now who comes up with lovely and creative guitar parts but they don't exactly groove. Editing and comping a guitar player with a jittery sense of tempo can be a time consuming process, with results that are still not on par with what a great player could do.

 

So I'm considering purchasing an Mbox 2 mini for the sole purpose of straightening out the rhythm guitars in my projects. (Well, for a few other things too, but that's my main priority for now.) I've seen the Elastic Time video and I'm impressed enough that I'm ready to throw in the towel waiting for a Logic solution and just go for the Mbox. I wonder if anyone here could give me some feeback on these potential issues.....

 

Number one, will Elastic Time work well for this purpose?

 

2 - I'm working on a G4 dual 867 - I've been told that performance will be slow. Like, will I be sitting around for half an hour waiting for a render? I don't mind waiting for a bit if it beats my usual Logic editing process.

 

3 - Do you have to rope in every beat one at a time with ET or can you have the whole performance snap to the grid and as a percentage, like BD?

 

4 - will I be able to import 24 bit 44.1kz audio into PTLE?

 

5 - Do these Mboxes ever conflict with other sound cards? I need to hear my edits through my RME.

 

Thanks for any feedback on these issues!

[dkgross]

pretty safe bet that it will be PAINFULLY slow on your G4, pal. I've already started hearing that people with Quad G5's are having a hard time with 7.4... I bought the upgrade, but I'm in the middle of a project, so it's gonna sit for a while.

[camillo jr]

Thanks dkgross - I'll have to speed up my G5 acquisition process.

 

Anyone else on the other questions?

[nikkik]

Elastic Time *could* work for that.

 

2: Render time is not bad. It is performance period that has been shaky. Disk throughput/access is impacted to some extent; great for some, less for others. Leopard is a HUGE no go. RTAS is bogged badly. On Tiger, it is about 1/3 the performance of what you would see with L8.

 

3: You (very) basically have two views; Analysis, and Warp. Analysis shows you where PT thinks your major slices/transients are, and in that view you can add, delete, or move Event Markers. Event Markers do nothing except act as a preliminary guide to work with. Warp view shows Warp markers. Typically a Warp marker is an Event marker that has been activated to become a Warp marker. Warp markers work n threes. One is a front anchor, one a back anchor, the middle one the movable marker. Move the center one, and the anchors remain, while the movable marker stretches one side, and compresses the other. There are other controls and parameters to control how that works, and various modes as well. Or, you can select a region and then use Event Quantize tools to align Event Markers to a quantization Grid, which sounds like ti would be what you would be looking for. However, I would not read that and simply think it is that easy or simple. While it CAN be, I do not think it always is, and that the feature set as a whole would take some time to really get good at using. Ableton has a very similar feature set.

 

4: Yes. I know of no LE interface that does not allow that.

 

5: I have not ever used an RME and Mbox. I have not ever used an RME. I have used my 002 and Mbox 2 Pro with the built-in sound tho, no problems. More than anyhting, I would recommend finding a place that will front you a loaner. You might find that even the LE version of Ableton will fulfill your needs, and not need to invest anything just for that feature set.

[camillo jr]

Thanks for the detailed info Nikki. I hadn't considered Live LE before.... Are you saying that there's a free version floating around? I see on the Abelton site you can download a fully functioning demo but they have no word about time limitations, beeps or anything else... I might as well give it a spin. If that one won't work indefinitely, is there one that will?

[lwilliam]

PT 7.4 is running just fine on my dual G5 2.5Ghz. I'm not noticing any performance difference with 7.3 until you engage the elastic audio feature on a track. EA has it's own CPU meter separate from the RTAS meter.

 

I would agree that you'd be pushing any G4 setup with EA unless you were using no virtual instruments at all. With just audio and EQ/Comp type plugins, you might be OK.

 

I use an RME ADI8-pro with my 002R and also use both with LP8. Seems to work just fine for me.

 

The mbox line can all be used with LP8 as far as I know.

 

There is a free version of Live that comes with Protools LE (Ignition Pak). I have Live Version 6 Lite that works with LP8 and with PTLE. It only allows 4 tracks/loops I believe.