Logic Processing Threads using Kontakt 7

[hulotings]

Hey all, I’m using Kontakt 7 on a brand new Mac Studio m2 Max chip (12 core, 64gb ram).

When I use Kontakt 7, two things are bothering me, wondering whether anyone else has had the same problem?

1. With some older libraries, in particular Spitfire Audio Kepler Orchestra (came out 2019) it’s stalling in certain [possibly more demanding] string patches - as you can see from my screenshot the Logic CPU (circled) is using one full bar of processing thread. As a result it’s clipping. It’s basically unusable in this instance. Especially when I try to record a loop. Even when I use my 2013 MacBook Pro, it clips, but to a lesser degree. How is this possible when this is an m2 chip? The only difference is the MacBook is using an older version of Kontakt, 6.6.1.

2. The other thing that I find crazy is that when I click ‘x’ to exit Kontakt, on my Mac Studio, there’s a slight delay. However, on my old MacBook, it exits instantly. Could it be because I have a lot more libraries loaded on Kontakt 7? Does that generally slow things down?

Cheers for your advice!

[rAC]

What settings do you have for Kontact? Ie Buffer, preload, etc.

[Bradley Hagen]

I am curious about this, because I have had nothing but problems with Kontakt 7 since going Mac M1.... Not to badmouth NI, but they are far and away the worst when it comes to catching up with Silicon...... I still have libraries that are not compatible- 2 1/2 years later!

[midi sordino]

I've also had CPU overload issues with some Kontakt instruments since I migrated from Intel to an M1 Ultra chip. It's annoying because you expect improvements when you 'upgrade' your computer.

I spent a long time trying to make sure all my third party plugs are compatible but I'm still not happy with the CPU load on quite basic templates in native mode (or Rosetta). 

To the OP: There are lots of potential reasons for your CPU spike. Are you in native or Rosetta mode? What's the i/o buffer setting? Also process buffer range and multithreading can have impact on CPU. https://support.apple.com/en-ie/HT203930#:~:text=Process Buffer Range%3A set this,Multithreading setting to optimise performance. Does this issue persist using internal audio rather than your interface? Is your audio interface driver up to date?

If in native mode, make sure all plugins in the project are compatible with Apple silicon and OS Ventura (if you're on the new Mac) but also check the CPU on the project with no plugins and just Kontakt 7. 

Re your second point - There's a slight delay opening plugins on Apple Silicon. It's a known issue. Not aware of any delay when closing Kontakt. 

Hope some of this helps. 

Edited September 26, 2023 by midi sordino

[hulotings]

Hey guys, thanks so much for your replies, appreciated.

Kontakt buffer size in Logic is currently 128.

@rAC I’ve taken a screenshot of the preload, it’s 60kB. 

Are those settings ok? I’m using a lot of software instruments in Logic, not really recording a lot of vocals, live instruments etc, so I need the latency to be low for midi.

@midi sordino when I use the Mac studio’s built in sound-card + that Spitfire library, it still has the spiking problem. I believe I’m using m natively in Logic, how can I check? 

Thanks again!

[midi sordino]

No worries. You're in native mode by default. To enable Rosetta you get info (cmd + I) on the Logic Pro app icon and tick 'Open using Rosetta'. I have the same preload setting on my Kontakt 7. I've noticed some libraries are more CPU hungry and will give me similar random spikes to yours, e.g. Straylight. I think most Spitfire libraries should be compatible with Apple silicon. On their website only two libraries are incompatible. But I would check the CPU performance with other Spitfire libraries, or similar libraries, and see if the issue still persists. It's possible that it's specific to Kepler (which might be quite CPU hungry). If so then maybe contact Spitfire support to check if it is supported. It's a shame to think that Mac Silicon can be such as hassle and be quite underwhelming in scenarios like this. I miss the ease of using my iMac Pro and never seeing messages like 'An Audio Unit Plug-in reported a problem'. But even though things have settled a bit, it's still something of a transitional phase and we are where we are. 

[oscwilde]

What are the Kontakt (and Logic) multicore settings?

[rAC]

10 hours ago, hulotings said:

I’ve taken a screenshot of the preload, it’s 60kB. 

Are you using a HDD or SSD or internal Drive or M2 drive? If the last two I listed you can probably safely cut the buffer even more.

[hulotings]

1 hour ago, rAC said:

Are you using a HDD or SSD or internal Drive or M2 drive? If the last two I listed you can probably safely cut the buffer even more.

I’m using an external Akitio Thunderbolt 2 RAID for my sample libraries, I only put the Logic projects I’m working on on the Mac desktop. Mac Studio itself only has 1tb internal.

How much would you recommend reducing the buffer to? 

[rAC]

And what sort of random access MB/S can you get from them? Kontact has a max load speed of 600Mbs I believe.

[rAC]

@hulotingsFYI I’ve just cut my Kontact preload to 60 KB with the idea of seeing how that goes (my Kontact stuff is all on a m.2 NVMe drive connect by TB3). I am pretty sure I will have to increase it at some stage but I’m interested to see how my Studio monster goes.

[hulotings]

On 9/27/2023 at 9:35 PM, oscwilde said:

What are the Kontakt (and Logic) multicore settings?

Hey, Kontakt and Logic settings are as follows respectively (see pics)

Does that seem about right?

31 minutes ago, rAC said:

@hulotingsFYI I’ve just cut my Kontact preload to 60 KB with the idea of seeing how that goes (my Kontact stuff is all on a m.2 NVMe drive connect by TB3). I am pretty sure I will have to increase it at some stage but I’m interested to see how my Studio monster goes.

Nice, so the same settings as I'm using - let me know how that goes!

[hulotings]

Just a quick update, I also posted this issue on the Native Instruments forum, the help guy there asked whether I'd given Logic and Kontakt 7 Full Disk Access under Privacy & Security settings. 

Previously they weren't, but I've since granted them both that access.

Any ideas why the NI would have asked if they had that turned on?

Cheers again

[midi sordino]

6 hours ago, hulotings said:

Just a quick update, I also posted this issue on the Native Instruments forum, the help guy there asked whether I'd given Logic and Kontakt 7 Full Disk Access under Privacy & Security settings. 

Previously they weren't, but I've since granted them both that access.

Any ideas why the NI would have asked if they had that turned on?

Cheers again

This is something you need to do, but I don't think it will resolve your CPU spike problem. I'm on a 20-core M1 Ultra Mac Studio with 128 GB of RAM and I'm using the internal drive (4TB). I've given disk full access, have tried multiple audio buffer, multithread, process buffer and Kontakt 7 settings (multiprocessor support off and also on & different preload sizes). Also tried this with internal audio rather than my interface but I'm still getting single thread CPU spikes like yours on certain larger instruments, e.g. Lores.  All this was tested in a Logic project with no third party plugins except Kontakt 7 and the same settings as you.

Edited September 29, 2023 by midi sordino

[oscwilde]

On 9/29/2023 at 2:29 PM, hulotings said:

Kontakt and Logic settings are as follows

Try no multiprocessor support in Kontakt and test.
Experiment with 2 or 4 cores and see how things go.

As a tip, you "theoretically" can unload the Kontakt plug in the channel strip after changing multi-processor options, then reload it in the channel strip.
In practice, this doesn't work - despite NI suggesting it does.
There "appears" to be some sort of communication/reporting between Logic/Kontakt re: multicore....so shut down/restart Logic after each Kontakt multiprocessor change.....and test.

[hulotings]

2 minutes ago, oscwilde said:

As a tip, you "theoretically" can unload the Kontakt plug in the channel strip after changing multi-processor options, then reload it in the channel strip.

Hey, really appreciate your input! 

But (forgive me for my ignorance haha) could you explain the above in another way? When you say ‘unload’ do you mean transfer/load the strain onto Logic instead, so giving Kontakt less CPU stress? 

cheers!

 

[oscwilde]

1 hour ago, hulotings said:

When you say ‘unload’ do you mean transfer/load the strain onto Logic instead, so giving Kontakt less CPU stress? 

In the channel strip, choose "No Plug-in" to unload it.
As mentioned, this isn't enough - so you need to make the change in Kontakt's prefs (the AU version in Logic, not the standalone version of Kontakt).
Once done, exit Logic, then re-insert Kontakt in a channel strip (or several) and test.

If running Logic in Apple Silicon ("native") mode, rather than Rosetta, plug-ins run in their own process "outside" of Logic.
I think that what may be happening is that Kontakt/Logic are competing for (CPU core) resources - potentially resulting in the issues you're having.
By setting a null (Off) or 2/4 core limit in Kontakt, both Logic/Kontakt won't step on each other's metaphorical toes.
There'll be a balance between them that works best for your libraries/needs.
Leave Logic on "Auto" for Processing Threads.

The other option to test is to run Logic in Rosetta mode. In this case, plug-ins run within a thread that is under Logic's control (note this is being simplistic, but used for clarity) - so Logic is responsible for the way CPU core/resource allocation works for plug-ins/the AU thread(s).

[bcariou]

Try updating to Kontakt 7.7.0 - there's a couple of Logic/macOS specific fixes. From the 7.7.0 release notes:

[dmitch57]

On 11/9/2023 at 9:12 AM, bcariou said:

Try updating to Kontakt 7.7.0

Indeed. I spent a few hours yesterday tracking down, and trying to fix, some nasty CPU spikes which were caused by Kontakt. Saw this post. Updated Kontakt. Problem solved.