Logic Pro on a Macbook Air M3 - known performance issues?

[Sascha Franck]

Hi,

I'm finally about to purchase an up to date computer (see signature for current vintage computer specs...) and plan to go for a fully spec'ed 13" Macbook Air (24GB RAM, 2TB SSD).

Now, just yesterday I stumbled across this video. Sure, it's an M3 Pro CPU at work, but could this be a general issue? In the video, Logic isn't using the efficiency cores at all (!), which would be horribly bad.

 

In the comments, the guy also says that some DAWs have been fixed ever since, but he's not saying whether Logic is among them.

Anyone using an M3 machine and being able to tell about Logic's utilization of the efficiency cores?

[Sascha Franck]

So, does nobody really know whether Logic is making use of the efficiency cores on an M3 CPU?

[des99]

There were long threads discussing this video already, so the ground has been well-covered. Unfortunately, I only have an M1 so can't add any of the direct feedback you're looking for... I can't remember any people with M3's complaining about Logic online in the various forums, so I haven't seen much.

Most of the M3 discussion iirc was based around the qualification of the "Pro" CPU's for M3, where the position of that in the line up in terms of CPU power has changed significantly compared to the previous M1/M2 generation Pro chips...

[wonshu]

If you're really worried just buy a used M1 or M2, save some money and wait for the next generation of CPUs...

[Sascha Franck]

1 minute ago, des99 said:

There were long threads discussing this video already, so the ground has been well-covered.

 

I can't find anything here. What was the verdict?

Just now, wonshu said:

If you're really worried just buy a used M1 or M2, save some money and wait for the next generation of CPUs...

 

In other words: The video is correct?

And fwiw, there's hardly any used M1/M2 /w 2TB SSD.

[Sascha Franck]

And one more thing: Performance is dropping from M1 to M2 already as well.

I'm also not going to buy a used M1 because in that case Apple will not support it anymore in 3 years already.

[wonshu]

22 minutes ago, Sascha Franck said:

In other words: The video is correct?

No.

I said if _you_ are really worried, act accordingly.

[Sascha Franck]

Just now, wonshu said:

No.

 

So, what is the dude doing wrong? He seems to set the audio preferences properly (as in switching from "Auto" to the entry displaying the cores).

[wonshu]

I don't know and I don't really care.

My point was that you can't change the current machines. If you don't like them, buy the older ones.

Or wait 1 or two more generations.

It's not rocket science.

[Sascha Franck]

10 minutes ago, wonshu said:

My point was that you can't change the current machines. If you don't like them, buy the older ones.

 

That's completely irrelevant. I don't want to change the current machines. I want to know whether Logic is utilizing the efficiency cores. That is all.

To quote you: "It's not rocket science". But apparently it is, because nobody has given me an answer yet.

 

Edited April 12 by Sascha Franck

[des99]

53 minutes ago, Sascha Franck said:

I can't find anything here.

 

[gunbrenner]

The other threads already discussed that and my opinion from what I understood is this:

- Logic does not take full advantage of the efficiency cores so if you want a new mac then try to get one with as much performance cores as you can afford.

- There can be a lot of (complicated) reasons to why it is like that so and not just devs "being lazy". There is hope it will be addressed in a future update but who knows.  

- Apparently Apple are giving more importance to ECores probably based on the user data they collect. Pro-Audio is just a small portion of the pool of all users.

Finally I'm not sure about this and please correct me if I'm wrong but I guess M1/M2 PCores are less powerful than M3? So it's not a one-one situation.  

[fisherking]

 

my M2 air is killing it (with both logic pro & final cut). my collab uses an M1 air. not seeing any performance 'loss' over her M1. & the M3 is just a step up...

 

[Sascha Franck]

Ok, so in a nutshell, the guy making the video is right. Unlike Reaper, Cubase and ProTools, Logic is not utilizing the efficiency cores.

That's plain bad, no matter how you look at it. Especially as there's a very serious decline in performance from M1 to M2 and another (if slighter) from the M2 to the M3.

I have no idea what Apple might use as a justification, but for me as an end user, that is just horrible.
I mean, the difference between 105 tracks in Reaper and 64 in Logic is horrifying. That's like Logic performing at 60% of Reaper.

There's not enough alcohol to convince me this would be a good thing (as some people even try to suggest).

 

 

[fisherking]

1 minute ago, Sascha Franck said:

 

Especially as there's a very serious decline in performance from M1 to M2 and another (if slighter) from the M2 to the M3.

nope.

[Sascha Franck]

1 minute ago, fisherking said:

nope.

 

Did you watch the video?

[fisherking]

1 minute ago, Sascha Franck said:

Did you watch the video?

i base my life around real-world experiences, actual specs, and some anecdotal moments, but not around youtube or tiktok videos... or really, much of what happens online...

[vondersulzburg]

I am on a MacBook Pro 16" with the M3max. And yes Logic is not using the efficiency cores. So a M3 is worth than a M2 with more efficiency cores. If you want to use all cores at the moment only Cubase 13 and Reaper have found a way to utilize all cores. There is a Vid from a Korean/Singapure ? guy comparing this.

I heard that Apple is working on that problem. But who knows??

On My MacBook I can handle > 160 tracks with fx midi with no dropouts.

Edited April 12 by vondersulzburg

[Sascha Franck]

2 minutes ago, fisherking said:

i base my life around real-world experiences, actual specs, and some anecdotal moments, but not around youtube or tiktok videos... or really, much of what happens online...

 

Ok, by that token, I can't base my life around your comments, either.

And because of that, I prefer to trust other sources more. Such as guys actually taking the effort to create videos.

[fisherking]

5 minutes ago, Sascha Franck said:

Ok, by that token, I can't base my life around your comments, either.

And because of that, I prefer to trust other sources more. Such as guys actually taking the effort to create videos.

good luck with that 👍

[des99]

47 minutes ago, Sascha Franck said:

Ok, so in a nutshell, the guy making the video is right. Unlike Reaper, Cubase and ProTools, Logic is not utilizing the efficiency cores.

I can't speak to the M3 or whether something is different there, I know Logic has an option to specify whether you want to use the E-cores or not, but I always have that switched off and only use the P-cores, and want to leave the E-cores for system use for smooth running (which is the default).

I know we had concerns about that video and how the guy was testing things (but I forget the specifics), but the bottom line is, for professional Logic use, you want to use P-Cores, and therefore you want the highest amount of P-cores on a machine that you can for serious use...

But it's possible future Logic updates will improve E-Core usage as they get more performant, perhaps...

[Sascha Franck]

11 minutes ago, des99 said:

I can't speak to the M3 or whether something is different there, I know Logic has an option to specify whether you want to use the E-cores or not, but I always have that switched off and only use the P-cores, and want to leave the E-cores for system use for smooth running (which is the default).

 

I'm aware of these options. And I was checking the differences out rather thoroughly on a mate's M1 Mac Mini. I could sort of imagine wanting somewhat more juice than what just the P-cores are delivering one day - well, not really, but kind of. And you never know.

However, that machine worked just fine with all cores available in Logic. Sure, the rest of the system slowed down a bit compared to the "Auto" setting, but that's absolutely fine with me.

16 minutes ago, des99 said:

 but the bottom line is, for professional Logic use, you want to use P-Cores, and therefore you want the highest amount of P-cores on a machine that you can for serious use...

 

Sure. But the thing is, a MB Air is what I can afford and what I like. All other options are not as good and more expensive too. So 4 P-cores it is. But then, the M1 don't have more and perform significantly better, simply because the E-cores can be utilized.

 

18 minutes ago, des99 said:

But it's possible future Logic updates will improve E-Core usage as they get more performant, perhaps...

 

I have absolutely no idea why it isn't possible to use them already. A) It's perfectly possible on M1s and b) it's perfectly possible within Reaper, Cubase and Pro Tools. There's absolutely no excuse for Logic to fall behind *that* much (the difference between 105 and 64 tracks is embarassingly huge in my book).

 

[synth_hero]

3 hours ago, Sascha Franck said:

I can't find anything here.

@des99 pointed to the previous thread on this topic. Did you read through it? 

[Sascha Franck]

5 minutes ago, synth_hero said:

@des99 pointed to the previous thread on this topic. Did you read through it? 

 

Yes. I did. Through both threads. There's exactly zero evidence that Logic would ever use the E-cores.

[oscwilde]

3 hours ago, Sascha Franck said:

Ok, so in a nutshell, the guy making the video is right. Unlike Reaper, Cubase and ProTools, Logic is not utilizing the efficiency cores.

Not quite so black and white.
It appears that Logic is not using the efficiency cores for DSP tasks.
It (and the OS) are certainly using the EC for non-DSP operations.
Logic is definitely leveraging the ANE, which other devs have limited access to.
This article on the architecture of PC/EC may be of interest.

https://eclecticlight.co/2024/03/01/apple-silicon-4-a-little-help-from-friends-and-co-processors/

[Sascha Franck]

43 minutes ago, oscwilde said:

Not quite so black and white.

 

Maybe not from a technical POV. From a mere user's POV it is. 105 tracks in Reaper vs. 64 in Logic is speaking volumes, no matter the technical background. Add to this that Logic is performing worse on the latest branch of M-CPUs rather than better, the latter being what everybody would expect.

 

43 minutes ago, oscwilde said:

Logic is definitely leveraging the ANE, which other devs have limited access to.

 

What would be the reason I could say "ok, that's justifying way worse track counts than what you get with the competition"?

Edited April 12 by Sascha Franck

[des99]

it sounds like you wouldn't be happy with that M3 Macbook Air then for your needs. Maybe wait 6 months and see what happens with the M4s that should start to arrive then (or a Logic update that improves performance for these machines) before jumping in, now that you have the data you were looking for.

As for me, I couldn't be happier with my M1 Pro - the best computer I've ever had by far, and Logic runs like a dream on it... but I'm glad I waited for the higher performance Pro chips over the basic entry-level ones, as more P-cores are really where the money is at for these uses...

[oscwilde]

22 minutes ago, Sascha Franck said:

What would be the reason I could say "ok, that's justifying way worse track counts than what you get with the competition"?

I know you've been around forever Sascha (nice to "see" you again, BTW ;-))....and getting hung up on measurements that may favour one product over another should be taken with a grain of salt.

The relevant question is what level of power do you require to do your work?
For many of us, an M1 is stupidly overpowered for our requirements.
My M1 MBP, to give a personal opinion/observation, runs a project that kicked the crap outta my 2018 Intel MBP (70+ tracks - loads of DSP/3rd-party instrument plugs)...and forced me to Freeze/bounce.....runs at around a 40-45% load on the M1 - with no bouncing/freezing required.

I understand your observations of/reservations about the M1 vs M2 vs M3 differences and completely get where you're coming from...it's confusing/frustrating that music-making (Logic, particularly) and M-series Macs seem to be out of step.

[Sascha Franck]

14 minutes ago, oscwilde said:

(nice to "see" you again, BTW ;-))

 

Thanks for the flowers. And ditto.

 

15 minutes ago, oscwilde said:

and getting hung up on measurements that may favour one product over another should be taken with a grain of salt.

 

Yes and no. By now, pretty often such measurements, even if somewhat simplified, translate at least sort of well to the real world. At least that's my experience (and I've done quite some measurements or have taken part in benchmark threads and what not).

Also, it's not only that the competitors are doing so much better but also that Logic is performing worse on the most recent CPUs than on those around 3-4 years old already. That's quite frustrating.

 

18 minutes ago, oscwilde said:

The relevant question is what level of power do you require to do your work?

 

I have no exact idea as I'm also buying a new computer to get back to some activities possibly requiring more horsepower (after spending the last years mainly playing live, with the exception of the pandemic of course). So, let's say I just want some headroom.

But it doesn't exactly matter. When I purchase a new DAW computer for 3k, I want the DAW I'm using to perform as good as it gets, even if I may never use all that juice. And with Logic, that very, very clearly is not the case. Even so much it's almost shocking. Even the "I never did well on Macs" Cubase is outperforming it by quite a margin.

Apart from that, while it didn't happen often, I actually ran into the computational limits of my Mac Pro here and there. And from previous tests I know that the first generation M1 Macbook Air would perform roughly the same in terms of multithreaded tasks, likely a little better. And this is just the kind of performance I'd expect from a machine 3-4 years newer. And it's not because of the machine - it's solely because of Logic. Which is embarassing. To even put it carefully.

And while the practical, every day limitations may not even exactly exist - I defenitely can't help it, but this is driving me mad. This is an Apple computer. And it's Apples very own flagship DAW. A DAW that used to kick all others' butts when it came to efficiency. That's one of the reasons why I accepted paying the "Apple Fee" instead of sticking with Windows.

Add to this that my trust in Logic's development is at least partially damaged already anyway (I will never forgive them the zoom functionality fiasco, which they will likely never ever fix).

Still I was ready to order that M3 MBA next week. I phoned to my local dealer (offering better prices than Apple) around an hour before I accidentally stumbled over that video. And I've been shocked. In fact, I actually couldn't believe it.

And now I will have to reconsider everything. A rather big and relevant part of me simply can't justify spending €3k on a machine run by a company that just doesn't care about their users.

[Sascha Franck]

And fwiw:

39 minutes ago, oscwilde said:

My M1 MBP, to give a personal opinion/observation, runs a project that kicked the crap outta my 2018 Intel MBP

Well. That's an M1. With those, the E-cores are utilized just fine.

On a MBA, with it's 4/4 corse, the loss of the E-cores would equal roughly around 40% of performance loss (the tests made in the video are along these lines as well). Losing 40% of horsepower on a 3k computer just because the DAW programmers don't manage to get their act together - well, that's not exactly what the doctor ordered.