A technical support community for Apple Logic Pro users.

 
en5ca
Posts: 38
Joined: Thu May 06, 2010 12:03 pm

Re: Plug-in Delay Compensation broken with external side-chain

Wed Oct 20, 2021 8:56 am

ansolas wrote:
Here another Example. Essentially it is the same example as the previous, but this time I wanted to check how sidechain 'meanwhile' behaves.
The result is quite 'funky' to formulate it in a political way.

So I added one Alchemy playing a pad sound
On thet Track there is a Compressor.

Its Sidechaininput is set to another channel with the kick drumsynth on it.
Playback sound Ok to me.
But here come the funkines.

Live playback of all other tracks are now behave as expected!

Once I remove the Sidechain Input it get's broken as in the previous videos I showed.


It would seem without the sidechain connection Logic would operate like Ableton Live does when 'Reduce Latency When Monitoring' is enabled in Live; disabling PDC on monitored input tracks. Although, if you record that, with Logic, you will end up with aligned MIDI notes on different tracks in same non-compensated positions, or aliased reagions, making it impossible to playback like it was heard through monitoring during recording.
 
sunbrother
Posts: 50
Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2021 9:55 am

Re: Plug-in Delay Compensation broken with external side-chain

Wed Oct 20, 2021 9:03 am

en5ca wrote:
ansolas wrote:
For Virtual Instruments either ?

And how do you play a track stack instrument which contains effects which introduce latency ...

I doubt that this is intended


Simple. You don't, at least in sync. But agreed, that probably isn't what they intended, but it's what has been accepted. That's been an issue since early versions of Logic Pro X.


Isn't this an issue with a lot of DAWs though? In some DAWs I could have sworn they just deactivate some of the routing when you monitor to prevent this. Mainly asking because I'm trying to keep track of what to avoid in my mixes and most of the stuff earlier in the thread I would run into was fixed throughout 10.6.

Also, doesn't Low Latency mode help one work around this by disabling the plugins that cause that latency?
 
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ansolas
Posts: 81
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2008 8:19 am

Re: Plug-in Delay Compensation broken with external side-chain

Wed Oct 20, 2021 9:23 am

Also, doesn't Low Latency mode help one work around this by disabling the plugins that cause that latency?

Yes it does. Anyways is the behavior quite unexpected.

?! PDC works for live played instruments when a compressor has a sidechain assiinged to it ?!
?! If we remove that sidechain input live played instruments are no longer compensated ?!

Something like this is essential to know, especially when having a huge project.
Thing like this can be tricky to find out and solve.
 
en5ca
Posts: 38
Joined: Thu May 06, 2010 12:03 pm

Re: Plug-in Delay Compensation broken with external side-chain

Wed Oct 20, 2021 10:30 am

sunbrother wrote:
Isn't this an issue with a lot of DAWs though? In some DAWs I could have sworn they just deactivate some of the routing when you monitor to prevent this. Mainly asking because I'm trying to keep track of what to avoid in my mixes and most of the stuff earlier in the thread I would run into was fixed throughout 10.6.

Also, doesn't Low Latency mode help one work around this by disabling the plugins that cause that latency?

That depends on the DAW, and it's 'Low Latency Mode' implementation. Cubase doesn't change the routing, but it bypasses latency inducing plugins from monitored input signal chain to minimize latency while maintaining sync. Ableton and REAPER don't change the routing, they offer the ability to disable PDC for monitored inputs to reduce latency. Studio One and AFAIK Pro Tools bypass plugins and further routing. Logic seems to do all three in Low Latency Mode: bypass plugins, bypass routing and disable PDC in some cases, as shown in ansolas' video.

This is perhaps slightly off topic, but regarding to input monitoring the problem with Logic is it does not offer discreet control over PDC while monitoring inputs, and in any case, doesn't properly compensate the monitoring latency to software monitored inputs with or without Low Latency Mode when recording. As shown in ansolas' video, creating the sidechain connection seems to enable PDC on all input monitored tracks without informing the user, or informing that PDC was disabled for monitored inputs in the first place (when in fact it is enabled in the preferences); this should be a global or track preference option, and not depend on the routing.

There are some examples on this thread where sidechain PDC isn't working during normal playback in Logic, even after the fix, and when input monitoring is not involved at all. At least Ableton, Cubase and REAPER are able to handle this correctly: maintain sync during playback and recording with software monitoring, compensate recording positions for monitoring latency, and offer user control over whether to use or constrain PDC or not (or bypass plugins/routing) to reduce monitoring latency.

What I know to be fixed with Logic is that reordering plugins no longer affects sidechain PDC, and sidechain PDC should work between tracks inside same submix or directly routed to master. What (I think still) should be avoided is sidechaining between different 'layers' or 'depths' of tracks/submixes/buses/groups/stacks/etc when different plugin latencies are involved.
 
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ansolas
Posts: 81
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2008 8:19 am

Re: Plug-in Delay Compensation broken with external side-chain

Thu Oct 21, 2021 4:28 am

[praise]
This fader here turns out to be very useful:



Screenshot 2021-10-21 at 13.27.44.png
Screenshot 2021-10-21 at 13.27.44.png (138.63 KiB) Viewed 2815 times


It lets me easily see in teh muxer which channels exceed the latency threshold.

<3
[/praise]

So once set to 0 ms you can easily determine the zero latenzy plugins

And teh best, LowLatency mode excludes plugins on teh master :)
That way Realphones or ARC3 kept unaffected
 
en5ca
Posts: 38
Joined: Thu May 06, 2010 12:03 pm

Re: Plug-in Delay Compensation broken with external side-chain

Thu Oct 21, 2021 5:26 am

Logic Pro 10.7 manual wrote:
In Logic Pro, you can choose to apply plug-in latency compensation either to all channel strip types, or to only audio and software instrument channel strips:

Audio and software instrument channel strips only: If you insert latency-causing plug-ins only on audio and instrument channel strips, you can choose plug-in latency compensation for only audio and instrument tracks. Logic Pro achieves this by delaying audio and MIDI regions on audio and instrument tracks. This results in snappy playback performance.

All channel strip types: If you insert latency-causing plug-ins on aux or output channel strips, you can choose plug-in latency compensation for all types of channel strips. When this setting is turned on, Logic Pro compensates for latency-causing plug-ins by calculating the amount of latency caused by all plug-ins, and then delaying audio streams by an appropriate amount. This type of plug-in latency compensation can result in a slight lag in playback performance, depending on how much latency is being compensated.


This is quote from revised(?) Logic Pro 10.7 manual. Now the description of PDC compensation for all channel strip types seems to be correct; delaying individual audio streams between nodes (plugins, split points, etc), causing 'extra lag' to maintain sync. Haven't tested 10.7 yet to see if this has been implemented properly.
 
sunbrother
Posts: 50
Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2021 9:55 am

Re: Plug-in Delay Compensation broken with external side-chain

Fri Oct 22, 2021 2:16 pm

en5ca wrote:
Logic Pro 10.7 manual wrote:
In Logic Pro, you can choose to apply plug-in latency compensation either to all channel strip types, or to only audio and software instrument channel strips:

Audio and software instrument channel strips only: If you insert latency-causing plug-ins only on audio and instrument channel strips, you can choose plug-in latency compensation for only audio and instrument tracks. Logic Pro achieves this by delaying audio and MIDI regions on audio and instrument tracks. This results in snappy playback performance.

All channel strip types: If you insert latency-causing plug-ins on aux or output channel strips, you can choose plug-in latency compensation for all types of channel strips. When this setting is turned on, Logic Pro compensates for latency-causing plug-ins by calculating the amount of latency caused by all plug-ins, and then delaying audio streams by an appropriate amount. This type of plug-in latency compensation can result in a slight lag in playback performance, depending on how much latency is being compensated.


This is quote from revised(?) Logic Pro 10.7 manual. Now the description of PDC compensation for all channel strip types seems to be correct; delaying individual audio streams between nodes (plugins, split points, etc), causing 'extra lag' to maintain sync. Haven't tested 10.7 yet to see if this has been implemented properly.


Interesting. With a thread this long, it’s getting hard to parse which issues were fixed, which weren’t, which routing configs to avoid. I almost wonder if after 3 years it should have a 10.7 thread for whatever’s left.
 
AMD
Posts: 649
Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2010 5:36 am
Location: London, England

Re: Plug-in Delay Compensation broken with external side-chain

Sun Oct 24, 2021 11:09 am

ansolas wrote:
Here another Example. Essentially it is the same example as the previous, but this time I wanted to check how sidechain 'meanwhile' behaves.
The result is quite 'funky' to formulate it in a political way.

So I added one Alchemy playing a pad sound
On thet Track there is a Compressor.

Its Sidechaininput is set to another channel with the kick drumsynth on it.
Playback sound Ok to me.
But here come the funkines.

Live playback of all other tracks are now behave as expected!

Once I remove the Sidechain Input it get's broken as in the previous videos I showed.



That's just bonkers! That's the sort of odd behaviour that's been happening with Logic on my system since 10.2 or so. Each update brings new odd behaviours. I don't know whether to update. I'm damned if I do or don't.

What really annoys me is the way Apple dangle the proverbial carrot. If we want a piece, we have to update macOS in order to get it. P*sses me right off :evil:
MBP 2018, 2.2Ghz 6 Core Intel i7, 16GB RAM, Logic X 10.6.3, OSX 10.15.7, Focusrite Scarlett 2i2, Komplete 10 Ultimate, Komplete Kontrol S61.
 
Martin Schmitt
Posts: 8
Joined: Mon Apr 26, 2021 11:48 am

Re: Plug-in Delay Compensation broken with external side-chain

Sun Oct 24, 2021 2:29 pm

Simply still not working
 
Appleeateryumyum
Posts: 1
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2021 12:04 am

Re: Plug-in Delay Compensation broken with external side-chain

Sun Oct 31, 2021 3:28 am

i can't believe this issue is been continued 3years straight lol
well in my music, side chain function is essential and so most of modern music does
seeing this issue never fixed with 3years, i'm not sure staying as a user of LPX is a good choice lol
 
Oder
Posts: 21
Joined: Tue Nov 19, 2013 10:00 pm

Re: Plug-in Delay Compensation broken with external side-chain

Tue Nov 02, 2021 11:42 pm

Since the "correct version" announced (10.6.2/10.6.3??) was looking to upgrade from 10.4.7 but needed a new computer, so as im finally about to get one very soon come to this thread only to find out this problem still persists? What are the realistic solutions to have the sidechain working? and what is the best Logic version to use?
 
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ansolas
Posts: 81
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2008 8:19 am

Re: Plug-in Delay Compensation broken with external side-chain

Wed Nov 03, 2021 12:24 am

Oder wrote:
What are the realistic solutions to have the sidechain working?

My tactic is to just use Zero Latency Plugins :)
 
Oder
Posts: 21
Joined: Tue Nov 19, 2013 10:00 pm

Re: Plug-in Delay Compensation broken with external side-chain

Wed Nov 03, 2021 12:29 am

ansolas wrote:
Oder wrote:
What are the realistic solutions to have the sidechain working?

My tactic is to just use Zero Latency Plugins :)

That is mission impossible :|
 
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ansolas
Posts: 81
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2008 8:19 am

Re: Plug-in Delay Compensation broken with external side-chain

Wed Nov 03, 2021 12:35 am

Oder wrote:
ansolas wrote:
My tactic is to just use Zero Latency Plugins :)

That is mission impossible :|

Luckily for me it is possible.
I dislike using plugins with latency anyways since I prefer top be able to play along anytime.
I wish any plugin would be zero latency :/
Except for the master channel, but there latency won't break the PDC.
 
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mclight
Posts: 196
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2010 4:45 am
Location: Vienna, Austria
Contact:

Re: Plug-in Delay Compensation broken with external side-chain

Fri Nov 12, 2021 12:19 am

ansolas wrote:
Live playback of all other tracks are now behave as expected!
Once I remove the Sidechain Input it get's broken as in the previous videos I showed.


Now I'm confused. Isn't that the other way round as it used to be? Since some time I struggle with input delays in my general template when playing any midi instrument (that is: I hit a key on the keyboard and (too many) ms later I hear the sound). In this template I've got one track set up with a Logic compressor side-chained to a kick of a ghost track (= sidechain input of the compressor is set to the bus delivering the ghost kick). If I want to get rid of the delay while playing on my keyboard I either have to set the sidechain in the compressor to "Internal" or I engange the Low-Latency-Mode. But when reading your post I get the impression you HAVE to set the compressor sidechain to the bus in order to have no delay?!?

But my real question is: would moving to Logic 10.7 improve my situation or even worsen it? For me this problem is a real issue. I didn't have these delays until lately and I find myself fantasizing about switching to Ableton Live (which is my secondary DAW right now) although I'm so much more fluent in Logic. But these delays drive me crazy and I don't see how to produce and mix without using sidechains ...
Logic Pro X 10.6.3 + OS X 11.6
MacBook Pro 16'' late 2019
Apogee Quartet, Apollo Twin MkII, Komplete Kontrol S88 MK2

http://www.charliemclight.com/en/home.html
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ansolas
Posts: 81
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2008 8:19 am

Re: Plug-in Delay Compensation broken with external side-chain

Fri Nov 12, 2021 3:07 am

Earlier I wrote it is only broken for live played instruments which is wrong:

 
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ansolas
Posts: 81
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2008 8:19 am

Re: Plug-in Delay Compensation broken with external side-chain

Fri Nov 12, 2021 7:34 am

here another example:

 
AMD
Posts: 649
Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2010 5:36 am
Location: London, England

Re: Plug-in Delay Compensation broken with external side-chain

Sat Nov 13, 2021 1:56 am

ansolas wrote:
Earlier I wrote it is only broken for live played instruments which is wrong:



This happens to me sometimes in 10.6.3, but when I press stop and play again, it rectifies itself. I'm trying to replicate it in an empty project now, but the delay compensation is actually working properly here in this project.

What version of Logic are you using?
MBP 2018, 2.2Ghz 6 Core Intel i7, 16GB RAM, Logic X 10.6.3, OSX 10.15.7, Focusrite Scarlett 2i2, Komplete 10 Ultimate, Komplete Kontrol S61.
 
AMD
Posts: 649
Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2010 5:36 am
Location: London, England

Re: Plug-in Delay Compensation broken with external side-chain

Sat Nov 13, 2021 1:59 am

ansolas wrote:
here another example:



I'm trying to replicate this in an empty project in 10.6.3 using the same plugins, but I can't. The audio only drifts if I haven't clicked 'Apply' Optimal Lookahead.

What are your settings on the Ad Limiter?
MBP 2018, 2.2Ghz 6 Core Intel i7, 16GB RAM, Logic X 10.6.3, OSX 10.15.7, Focusrite Scarlett 2i2, Komplete 10 Ultimate, Komplete Kontrol S61.
 
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ansolas
Posts: 81
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2008 8:19 am

Re: Plug-in Delay Compensation broken with external side-chain

Sat Nov 13, 2021 3:31 am

AMD wrote:
ansolas wrote:
here another example:



I'm trying to replicate this in an empty project in 10.6.3 using the same plugins, but I can't. The audio only drifts if I haven't clicked 'Apply' Optimal Lookahead.

What are your settings on the Ad Limiter?

I set it to 200 ms look ahead to make the behaviour most obvious.

Screenshot 2021-11-13 at 12.32.38.png
Screenshot 2021-11-13 at 12.32.38.png (605.4 KiB) Viewed 834 times


AMD wrote:
What version of Logic are you using?


latest

AMD wrote:
ansolas wrote:
Earlier I wrote it is only broken for live played instruments which is wrong:



I'm trying to replicate it in an empty project now, but the delay compensation is actually working properly here in this project.


even when playing live ?