pitch discrepancies between Software instruments

[Ascarpo]

Hi everyone, 

I've been using software instruments on a recent project and have noticed, as I add more instruments, it sounds more dissonant. 

I started with the lounge piano 73 and some strings- played and recorded both through my midi keyboard and they sounded fine together. I then added a choir and it began to sound very dissonant (I'm entering the same exact midi notes). 

After checking the pitch with my piano, I discovered the choir is in the correct key (when I play an A on the piano and play back the choir, they are singing an A). However, when I play back the other two instruments, they are sharp (A on the piano matches an A# on software piano and strings). 

All of the midi notes in logic are the same and show an "A", but the two instruments play an A# while the choir plays an A. 

I've had this issue in the past and can't remember how I resolved it. But I also don't recall actually learning what occurred to cause this issue in the first place. 

I'd appreciate any help on how to resolve it, as well as advice on how to avoid it in the future!  

[Atlas007]

There are different possibilities here.

The modwheel, the automation, region parameter, the plugin(s) in use, etc.

Uploading/posting  a skimmed down version of your project that feature the issue would ease the troubleshooting procedure…

Edited November 7, 2022 by Atlas007

[Ascarpo]

I just tried to share a zip file of the three instruments I described. It won't let me attach it. Is there another preferred way of sharing projects?

[Atlas007]

This board allow file's attachment of size up to 1.9MB.

If you're unable to provide a skimmed down version of your project, you could try using Dropbox (or similar free file repository service) and paste the related link (to download your project) in (one of) your next reply.

Edited November 8, 2022 by Atlas007

[Ascarpo]

https://www.dropbox.com/s/pw59pyi9zzdwwjw/logic pro help share.logicx.zip?dl=0

let me know if this works!

[Atlas007]

 Yes your dropbox upload worked fine.

(1)+ (2) It seem that your problem is caused by the presence of strange controller events (CC#0, CC#64 etc) with odd negative 4 digits values (i.e. 50 = -1792, 49 = -1856) in the first region of track 3 and in both regions of track 5.

The dissonance is caused by the presence of those odd CCs. as it disappears when deleting them. You could view (and delete) them within the Event List editor.

(3) I also noted that there are way too many sustain pedal recorded (CC#64). It seems that all those recorded CC present a regular redundancy pattern (X4 to every one of them).

Unless you are running two instance of Logic or more than on project is loaded at once in Logic (which both are definite no! no!), I would suspect that either your MIDI controller (or pedal) or something connected in between that and your computer is defective.

 

Edited November 8, 2022 by Atlas007

[JakobP]

Didn't open the project, but the events with the negative values sure looks like pitchbend data to me...

[JakobP]

Also, what device(s) are you using to record the midi ? You get the midi recorded on 4 different midi channels, which isn't normal...

[Atlas007]

2 hours ago, JakobP said:

Didn't open the project, but the events with the negative values sure looks like pitchbend data to me...

For the values (i.e. -1792 and -1856) perhaps. But for the CC# being 0 or #64, that is something I don't know about (and would think as being pitchbend events). Especially the value being recorded as 50=-1792 or 49=-1856...

[moonboy]

I've had similar issues - erroneous pitch bend data causing software instruments to go out of tune with each other. Even seen it happen whilst recording and my keys shifted by a semitone! I found the problem for me was in the Arturia Keylab controller piano, not in Logic, as it only ever happened when that keyboard was connected. I performed a factory reset on the keyboard and it fixed all the pitch problems. Re calibrating the pitchbend wheel is another suggestion, if resetting your midi controller doesn't fix it.

[JakobP]

16 minutes ago, Atlas007 said:

For the values (i.e. -1792 and -1856) perhaps. But for the CC# being 0 or #64, that is something I don't know about (and would think as being pitchbend events). Especially the value being recorded as 50=-1792 or 49=-1856...

Not sure what you're referring to, is it the midi sustain in the #3 in your screenshot ? Recorded a pitchbend up from max down to "neutral" and down again using musical typing, note that the "Num" column is increments of the "Val" values. I marked the PB neutral position in red...

[Ascarpo]

4 hours ago, moonboy said:

I've had similar issues - erroneous pitch bend data causing software instruments to go out of tune with each other. Even seen it happen whilst recording and my keys shifted by a semitone! I found the problem for me was in the Arturia Keylab controller piano, not in Logic, as it only ever happened when that keyboard was connected. I performed a factory reset on the keyboard and it fixed all the pitch problems. Re calibrating the pitchbend wheel is another suggestion, if resetting your midi controller doesn't fix it.

Based on this, I'm thinking it's more of a problem with the keyboard I've connected. I've also noticed a similar instance to the one you described- where the actual keyboard will be in a different key when plugged into logic, and when disconnected it shifts keys again.  

I'll look into resetting the keyboard, but I'm thinking it's time for me to just get a new, dependable midi keyboard anyways. Any recommendations? 

[Ascarpo]

7 hours ago, JakobP said:

Also, what device(s) are you using to record the midi ? You get the midi recorded on 4 different midi channels, which isn't normal...

I'm honestly using a casio privia digital piano that is probably not intended for midi use. I'm guessing that's where things are going wrong, but it's all I have access to right now. Like I said to moonboy above, I'll just take this as a sign that it's time to invest in a solid midi keyboard. 

[JakobP]

4 hours ago, moonboy said:

I performed a factory reset on the keyboard and it fixed all the pitch problems. Re calibrating the pitchbend wheel is another suggestion, if resetting your midi controller doesn't fix it.

@Ascarpo, try the factory reset first as suggested by moonboy.. 

[Ascarpo]

11 hours ago, Atlas007 said:

 Yes your dropbox upload worked fine.

(1)+ (2) It seem that your problem is caused by the presence of strange controller events (CC#0, CC#64 etc) with odd negative 4 digits values (i.e. 50 = -1792, 49 = -1856) in the first region of track 3 and in both regions of track 5.

The dissonance is caused by the presence of those odd CCs. as it disappears when deleting them. You could view (and delete) them within the Event List editor.

(3) I also noted that there are way too many sustain pedal recorded (CC#64). It seems that all those recorded CC present a regular redundancy pattern (X4 to every one of them).

Unless you are running two instance of Logic or more than on project is loaded at once in Logic (which both are definite no! no!), I would suspect that either your MIDI controller (or pedal) or something connected in between that and your computer is defective.

Thank you for all of your help! 

Like I said above, I'm going to start looking into better midi controller / keyboard options. I'm thinking my current setup is the problems. 

For the time being, I'll plan on going in and manually deleting them within the Event List editor as you described. 

[Ascarpo]

2 minutes ago, JakobP said:

@Ascarpo, try the factory reset first as suggested by moonboy.. 

I will. 

Do you think that investing in a midi controller would ultimately be better than continuing to use the digital piano though? 

[JakobP]

I googled "casio previa", and they seem to be nice keyboards, I'm guessing better than many midi keyboards in the lower pricerange. What model is it ?

[moonboy]

3 hours ago, Ascarpo said:

Do you think that investing in a midi controller would ultimately be better than continuing to use the digital piano though?

Not necessarily, any keyboard or midi controller is just sending messages to the software. Mine is an Arturia Keylab 61 Essential, which is inexpensive, but purpose made for controlling software so I wouldn't have expected this issue. It's less than a year old so if it happens again I'm replacing it.

[Atlas007]

If you like the keyboard feel of your Casio Privia, and don’t need the pitchbend, (in case the reset doesn’t work) you could try filtering out those pitchbend (MIDI events) from being recorded. Since that feature is a project setting, you might find useful to save that setting into a project template, saving you from setting that filter at every new project.

OTOH, it seems that your Privia is also quadrupling on different MIDI channels the sustain events as well. Perhaps setting the Privia MIDI setting to Local Off could prevent or mitigate same?

In case you need the Casio Privia manual…

Edited November 8, 2022 by Atlas007

[moonboy]

13 minutes ago, Atlas007 said:

If you like the keyboard feel of your Casio Privia, and don’t need the pitchbend, you could try filtering out those pitchbend (MIDI events) from being recorded. Since that feature is a project setting, you might find useful to save that setting into a project template, saving you from setting that filter at every new project.

Didn't know about that - thanks!

[Ascarpo]

3 hours ago, JakobP said:

I googled "casio previa", and they seem to be nice keyboards, I'm guessing better than many midi keyboards in the lower pricerange. What model is it ?

It's the px 330. It's a great keyboard and I've had it for a long time; just will have to work around the pitch issues. 

[Ascarpo]

14 minutes ago, Atlas007 said:

If you like the keyboard feel of your Casio Privia, and don’t need the pitchbend, you could try filtering out those pitchbend (MIDI events) from being recorded. Since that feature is a project setting, you might find useful to save that setting into a project template, saving you from setting that filter at every new project.

OTOH, it seems that your Privia is also quadrupling on different MIDI channels the sustain events as well. Perhaps setting the Privia MIDI setting to Local Off could prevent or mitigate same?

Thank you!

I did end up deleting the pitchbend data in the event list editor and it corrected the issue. Thank you so much! 

Since I do like my privia, (with the exception of this pitch issue) I think I'll work on setting up a project template that filters out the pitchbend. 

I'll also look into the settings you described to change the sustain events. Is there a chance that my cable could have something to do with these issues? I can't remember where I found it, but I don't think it was intended for recording midi data. 

[Atlas007]

The Casio Privia px330 manual could be found here.

[Atlas007]

21 minutes ago, Ascarpo said:

Is there a chance that my cable could have something to do with these issues? I can't remember where I found it, but I don't think it was intended for recording midi data. 

It is a possibility.

Does your Casio connect directly to your Mac via USB?

Do you have any other devices connected either to your Mac or to your Casio?

Browsing the manual, intuitively I’d be inclined in believing there might be other MIDI settings in the px330 that could be involved in your issue…

One other place I’d troubleshoot is the Logic Controller Setup window. Sometimes Logic spontaneously instal an inappropriate controller which causes idiosyncrasies… This could easily be solved by simply deleting the intruder. Besides visual checkup, Bypass All Control Surfaces is an easy way to troubleshoot it…

Edited November 8, 2022 by Atlas007

[Ascarpo]

On 11/8/2022 at 5:26 PM, Atlas007 said:

It is a possibility.

Does your Casio connect directly to your Mac via USB?

Do you have any other devices connected either to your Mac or to your Casio?

Browsing the manual, intuitively I’d be inclined in believing there might be other MIDI settings in the px330 that could be involved in your issue…

One other place I’d troubleshoot is the Logic Controller Setup window. Sometimes Logic spontaneously instal an inappropriate controller which causes idiosyncrasies… This could easily be solved by simply deleting the intruder. Besides visual checkup, Bypass All Control Surfaces is an easy way to troubleshoot it…

Just saw this. 

The Casio connects via USB but there is also an attachment on one end to connect it to my Mac. 

No other devices except my Scarlett 2i2. 

I'll look through the manual and check if Logic installed any controllers. Thanks for linking the manual and the bypass. I appreciate your help!

[Atlas007]

6 hours ago, Ascarpo said:

The Casio connects via USB but there is also an attachment on one end to connect it to my Mac. 

What do you mean by that?

[Ascarpo]

13 hours ago, Atlas007 said:

What do you mean by that?

I had to add an adapter to the end of the usb cable that connects to the Mac. So One end of the cable plugs directly into the piano, the other end plugs into a small adapter which is then plugged into the Mac. 

[Atlas007]

7 hours ago, Ascarpo said:

I had to add an adapter to the end of the usb cable that connects to the Mac. So One end of the cable plugs directly into the piano, the other end plugs into a small adapter which is then plugged into the Mac. 

Maybe that adaptor is the cause of your issue…