Plogue Bidule and Logic

[stevenson]

just double click the midi area in the transport which is full panic. it will send notes off to everything.

 

the hanging note is a bug in logic not plogue. i get this using logic without rewire, and it will even do this on external midi stuff as well.

 

btw Fred B - thanks very much for the tip about running plogue in standalone to set the rewire prefs. that did it.

 

ok so thats just about got it covered. all of us here figuring this stuff out should blaze the trail for the poor fools to come. if you suspect someone of suffering memory problems, point them the way of plogue and help them get set up. it could do with being a tiny bit more intuitive but its flexible and very solid. i have been using it for the past month at it has been VERY solid.

 

one thing to bear in mind: for 2 CPU machines it takes over a processor. logic is not running anything on the 1st CPU here.

 

next thing to try is sending audio to plug ins in plogue and then back to logic.

[Fred B]

next thing to try is sending audio to plug ins in plogue and then back to logic.

Do you mean sending audio from Logic to PB and then back to Logic?

Unfortunately that can't be done with ReWire as it only supports configurations like this

 

MIDI (Logic) --> ReWire (PB) --> Audio (Logic)

.

[stevenson]

well i managed to make it work with aunet send in logic and netreceive in plogue. the netsend sent the audio to plogue where i put livecut on it and i brough it back via rewire onto an aux in logic where i put distortion on it.

 

it works fine but i am sure there is a better way. i think the trick will be to use soundflower. the other possibility is to use audio jack - that definitely works but you have start to an audio server and blah blah. i want to find the simplest possible method.

 

what's great about bidule is it so resembles logics own environment it seems the most natural way to do things.

 

never-the-less i am confused by the different states in plogue. i would rather something greyed out so i couldn't use it than have it disappear altogether and not realize that is there but in a different mode.

 

it may be that the easiest thing is to just use the plogue for sample based stuff and if FX plugs alone really do bring logic to its knees then 1st turn off virtual memory in the exs prefs and if that doesn't work load them in au lab and send them via audio jack or soundflower. not great.

 

i still think there could a simple solution with plogue in rewire mode but it'll take some thinking about.

[Fred B]

..and send them via audio jack or soundflower. not great.

It's too bad that OS X doesn't provide built-in audio busses like IAC for MIDI.

[fattymatthews]

This is awesome stuff man, thanks everyone for helping out.

 

I am still however getting the midi stuck note problem, quiet frequently

 

Im on a 8 core 3.0 woith 10GB of RAM. I have triend the midi reset on the transport bar and also reset controllers in the options, but this does not fix it, the note still continues to play.

 

I am using Audio Units in PB, tried setting up some Native Instrument VST's and same problem. Doesnt matter what 3rd party plug im unsing the notes stick.

 

I can right click on the Audio unit in PB and click the ReInit option, this clears the stuck note, but then i come to a new problem, and that is that as soon as i do that, no audio comes into logic when i play my midi keyboard.

 

If i open up Absynth in PB or any other AU that has a keyboard down the bottom within the Audio Unit, i can play that keyboard by clicking on the notes with the mouse and i can hear the audio fine.

 

Im posting over in the Plogue forums also so ill let you know if i come across a solution or whatever it is im doing wrong!

[fattymatthews]

Hey Guys, good news!

 

I found the solution to all my problems over in the PB forums. Yay! I have re setup PB to be the same as the below screen shot and now i to am running flawlessly. Can quantize with no problems now. No hanging notes for me

 

Title of the post: Hanging notes problem solved!!!

http://www.plogue.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3675

 

And this is what it says:

 

"PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 5:30 pm Post subject: Hanging notes problem solved!!!

 

Okay, after a quick tryout I got the problem solved:

 

Check out the screenshot:

http://www.cellarroom.de/tmp/bidule_working.png

 

The only thing is when using ReWire NOT to use the Rewire midi outs and the splitters, but use the standard MIDI outs Bidule1, Bidule 2 etc.

 

I all the time thought that those MIDI outs are just simple MIDI channels but those a ports a 16 channels too.

 

So in Cubase I have e.g. 16 MIDI tracks. I assign Bidule 1 as a output and choosing channel 1 for the first track, channel 2 for the 2nd etc.

 

This solved the hanging notes problem for me. It is running flawless now.

I could also guess that the hanging notes problem is not really a Bidule problem but a general ReWire issue.

 

I will do some more tests but it seems to be the working way.

 

Hope that helped!

[Fred B]

Fatty, that's very interesting.

 

Actually the solution with virtual ports has an additional benefit.

You can use normal MIDI tracks in Logic which provide volume/pan control (in contrast to ReWire MIDI tracks).

 

The question remains if it makes a noticeable difference with respect to timing.

[stevenson]

i have been using a mixture of both and now that i think of it, the only hanging notes are from the instruments with the rewire midi.

 

as to timing - i have not noticed anything other than latency feels much improved. i am betting that i am probably having some cpu hit for that though.

 

people with lots of RAM and lots of cores are going to really enjoy plogue i would have thought.

[Fred B]

people with lots of RAM and lots of cores are going to really enjoy plogue i would have thought.

Yes, thanks for starting this topic.

It has really helped to clarify things about ReWire and finding a workable solution.

[guavadude]

Using the individual Bidule outs for midi is MUCH better.

"add next midi track" works much better than adding next in Rewire, since the rewire wants to go to the next buss instead of the next channel.

 

fyi, RMX is working fine in PB and you can drag and drop the midi right on to the arrange as if it were plugged up in Logic.

 

killer!

[ski]

I think you're problem is in the second step. You have to create the aux in Logic and then choose Bidule from the list of rewire devices, then launch PB.

 

Got it working, thank you! I restarted again, loaded my new Logic template with the Aux preset with an input from PB:ReWire, started up PB and... success! Thanks again for your help G.Dude, thanks again to stevenson for starting this thread, and for all of the valuable info/insights by Fred B. and others.

[Eric Cardenas]

 

Check out the screenshot:

http://www.cellarroom.de/tmp/bidule_working.png

 

The only thing is when using ReWire NOT to use the Rewire midi outs and the splitters, but use the standard MIDI outs Bidule1, Bidule 2 etc.

 

There is one big BUT thou!

If you use the MIDI Bidule 1, 2 and so on you don't get the benefit of full delay compensation.

If you use the Rewire MIDI everything will line up to the last sample.

[guavadude]

hmmm, so is this only a problem with major latency plugs like Ad Limiter?

Because in my quick test with RMX, the midi that I've pulled into the arrange seems to be locking up fine with the click.

 

I think I'm just going to have to start working with it and decide which is the lesser of two evils....stuck midi notes using Rewire, or no PDC.

 

Still, either way beats the hell out of a rack full of Roland S-760s maxed at 30mb of ram!

[Fred B]

If you use the Rewire MIDI everything will line up to the last sample.

Yes, sample accurate MIDI timing is an essential feature of ReWire. In contrast, when working with virtual ports like IAC I've noticed and measured jitter of up to several milliseconds, depending on the actual CPU load.

 

Anyway, the Plogue developers are aware of the issue and hopefully will sort it out sooner or later.

[Eric Cardenas]

hmmm, so is this only a problem with major latency plugs like Ad Limiter?

Because in my quick test with RMX, the midi that I've pulled into the arrange seems to be locking up fine with the click.

 

I think I'm just going to have to start working with it and decide which is the lesser of two evils....stuck midi notes using Rewire, or no PDC.

 

Still, either way beats the hell out of a rack full of Roland S-760s maxed at 30mb of ram!

 

Here is a little movie that uses RMX!

I have one instance of RMX playing within Logic and two instances inside of PB.

 

http://tinyurl.com/bpjzc3

[guavadude]

thanks for making that Eric.

I'd prefer sample accurate obviously, but the midi version is still phasing which is close enough for me. The hanging notes can be a real problem, so I'm going with midi unless it really needs to be sample tite and then I'll use the rewire.

 

thanks again for that video.

[Eric Cardenas]

thanks for making that Eric.

I'd prefer sample accurate obviously, but the midi version is still phasing which is close enough for me. The hanging notes can be a real problem, so I'm going with midi unless it really needs to be sample tite and then I'll use the rewire.

 

thanks again for that video.

 

Well it's close enough for jazz...

I did some measuring and for this application the sample delay was 136 samples, or about 3 ms in 44.1 kHz.

One thing that I encountered wile trying this thing out is that you can actually bounce the rewired stuff offline but it's a no-go for the external MIDI.

[JT3_Jon]

This thread is great! I may have found a solution to my Logic slugyness! Hooray!

 

Just thinking out loud here (downloading the demo now) but is it possible to load VI's in Bidule and play them via the "external instrument" plugin in Logic? Whats great about the external instrument plugin is that you no longer have to use separate midi tracks/aux inputs, as the external instrument plug basically makes your external instruments act like internal ones!

 

I've done this with single instances of Kontakt in the past and it works great! However, I need to run more than one instance of Kontakt now, and thus I'm looking into a host like Bidule. However, the idea of having two tracks for every instrument (one midi, one audio aux) seems like it would be a drag (especially when you have to do automation).

 

What are your experiences?

[JT3_Jon]

Anyone else getting noticeable latency using PB via rewire w/ logic? Its almost enough to make it unusable for input IMO! I guess it would be fine for playback, but not for recording; It impossible to play musically with this much latency! I tried latency fixer at 4096 samples and it STILL feels weird! Any ideas? Edited January 23, 2009 by JT3_Jon

[fattymatthews]

Just setup the externam instrument AU now. Seems to work fine! Although there are many smart chappies in here who will probably know for sure if it causes any further bottlenecks routing through the external instrument.

 

:Loving this piece of software, im having problems using the rewire as it always sustains, i cant get two notes in now without it ballsingup. Hopefully they fix this in the PB updates to come.

[fattymatthews]

Anyone else getting noticeable latency using PB via rewire w/ logic? Its almost enough to make it unusable for input IMO! I guess it would be fine for playback, but not for recording; It impossible to play musically with this much latency! I tried latency fixer at 4096 samples and it STILL feels weird! Any ideas?

 

Have you setup rewire mode in logic prefrences to live? That should fix it.

 

Its under Audio Tab, Devices, Core Audio Subtab, then rewire behaviour

[JT3_Jon]

That did it! Fatty, you're a genius! Question though; its perfectly fine to turn this mode off again while not recording, right? Its not going to throw what I just recorded out of sync? I guess I'll find out soon enough!

 

It still would be way cool if we could somehow incorporate Logic's external instrument with this setup; but I guess its not a deal breaker if logic is snappy again. I'll have to put PB through the ringer while I can; demo expires Feb 15th!

 

p.s. is there anyway to have logic automatically open PB via rewire when it loads a song that uses it? Perhaps thats impossible, but would be a GREAT feature!

[route-electrique]

Okay, nice pictures and interesting s#!+, one thing though what is this Bidule thing ? . Going for google ...

[Ashermusic]

It's working really well here also.

[JT3_Jon]

Hey Jay!

 

Do you find this to be a better solution than running VI's in standalone mode? I guess its less elegant; need 2 tracks (midi & audio) than just one external instrument, but it does seem to be much more stable.

[Fred B]

The ReWire protocol is designed for perfect integration with accurate timing. So the ReWire slave behaves exactly like an instrument plugin, including tempo synchronization. But if you don't need that (or if not properly implemented) you may as well use the external instrument feature. No doubt, having a single track per instrument is more elegant and appropriate to Logic's overall design.

[Ashermusic]

Hey Jay!

 

Do you find this to be a better solution than running VI's in standalone mode? I guess its less elegant; need 2 tracks (midi & audio) than just one external instrument, but it does seem to be much more stable.

 

Basically, I am treating these the same way I treat multi-output instruments. I record the MIDI and the audio comes up on auxes, so when it is time to mix/automate, I hide the MIDI tracks and just mix/automate the auxes.

 

And so far it seems very stable.

 

Of course, none of this would be necessary if Apple either made Mainstage suitable as a virtual rack or simply let us have 2 instances of Logic Pro open.

[stevenson]

Of course, none of this would be necessary if Apple either made Mainstage suitable as a virtual rack or simply let us have 2 instances of Logic Pro open.

 

or something.

 

at least something. just expecting 3rd parties to implement the memory addressing alla exs kind of doesn't fix anything.

 

if they did a virtual rack, i bet it would work really well and allow you to run logic plugins so that you could easily create a logic/3rd party plug-in chain.

 

then you could even load up csts, and you would have tight integration with the main program.

 

it just feels like we are left on our own to try and sort out the limitations, where as they are better placed to understand the nature of problems that arise from modern working environments and then don't help us through it.

 

even the exs trick i found out from a friend of a friend of a friend - it wasn't even advertised when it came out - but it was a profoundly important feature. great it was implemented, but what's the point if we don't know its there?

 

and then, it turns out it doesn't work that great in practice because as a consequence of using it with 3rd parties, logic slows down to a crawl or crashes altogether.

 

logic feels not thought through to me at the moment. we get half of great functionality, or half of a workflow, but following it through to completion always ends up with problems bugs and limitations that make you wish you never started.

 

anyway - rant over. plogue really seems like a great great solution. and in a way, having to look into it to get around logics limitations has introduced it to me. and it looks to be far more powerful than just au hosting.

[Ashermusic]

BTW, it appears that Bidule is limited to 16 outs. Rohan, is there a way to get more?

[Eric Cardenas]

BTW, it appears that Bidule is limited to 16 outs. Rohan, is there a way to get more?

 

Do you mean with rewire?

Check the Preferences > Rewire, you can have up to 96 Outs.