Plogue Bidule and Logic

[DJ GOSHER]

im after reading all this thread....can somebody shine a bit of light on this program?.for the rest of us who are half lost reading this thread.....where do we get it? whats the price etc?

[Fred B]

BTW, can PB send midi out from a plugin back into logic? RealGuitar now offers midi out, but its only available w/ the VST version.

Yes, it can. Just use the VST version and cable its MIDI output to an IAC bus (as output device).

[JT3_Jon]

BTW, can PB send midi out from a plugin back into logic? RealGuitar now offers midi out, but its only available w/ the VST version.

Yes, it can. Just use the VST version and cable its MIDI output to an IAC bus (as output device).

 

Thank you! Yeah, I got this far, but dont know how to use this output to play a Logic instrument.

 

I have two ports activated: IAC 1 & IAC 2. IAC 1 triggers RealGuitar from Logic; IAC 2 receives the midi out from Real guitar in PB (checked it with PB's midi monitor and its indeed getting midi out from Real Guitar). I've tried creating an instrument in the environment & having it's port set to IAC 2, and then cabling it into the EXS instrument. I thought for sure this would work, but no go. Hmmm.... Any ideas what to do from here?

[Fred B]

BTW, can PB send midi out from a plugin back into logic? RealGuitar now offers midi out, but its only available w/ the VST version.

Yes, it can. Just use the VST version and cable its MIDI output to an IAC bus (as output device).

 

Thank you! Yeah, I got this far, but dont know how to use this output to play a Logic instrument.

 

I have two ports activated: IAC 1 & IAC 2. IAC 1 triggers RealGuitar from Logic; IAC 2 receives the midi out from Real guitar in PB (checked it with PB's midi monitor and its indeed getting midi out from Real Guitar). I've tried creating an instrument in the environment & having it's port set to IAC 2, and then cabling it into the EXS instrument. I thought for sure this would work, but no go. Hmmm.... Any ideas what to do from here?

 

Unfortunately, IAC feedback is a common problem with Logic as it doesn't provide port selection per track like other DAWs.

 

In your case some environment trickery is needed to prevent that PB receives the same MIDI which it's sending out to IAC 2. The simplest way is to subtract the IAC 2 port from SUM input, by cabling that port directly to an instrument for playing.

 

EDIT:

Thinking about it, there is also a solution without using the environment:

 

1 Make sure that PB sends to IAC 2 only on MIDI channel X, and

 

2 Make sure that NO instrument in your arrangement is receiving on channel X except the instrument for playing the output of PB.

Edited January 31, 2009 by Fred B

[ski]

I just posted a new thread on how to get Logic to reflect level metering of your external Plogue-hosted plugs right in the Inspector, plus a lot more...

 

Check it out!

[bmdaugherty]

Hey guys! well thanks to all of you I have bidule up and running. I am using the regular bidule midi objects in rewire mode due to the stuck notes... At least this way I can tempo sync and return audio to logic. Anyway, I found this site:

 

http://www.mts.net/~mathers/FAQ_Index.html

 

which has some useful info on setup. One cool thing I noticed is the ability to skin the whole thing. I set out and made a skin which matches the colors of logic, IMO anyway. It's really easy to create the skins and to trade them so let me know if anyone is interested.

 

Also, for you registered users out there, don't forget to download the audio unit plugin version. I love this s#!+. You can really create an instrument entirely from scratch on an ordinary instrument track, all from within logic. Obviously this implementation is much more a virtual instrument than a ram workaround/slave processor.

[Fred B]

I've been using Plogue Bidule since many years for all kinds of configurations, in particular also as a real time VST wrapper. So you can for example use MIDI output from plugins which is not supported by the AU standard.

 

It's just too bad that ReWire with Logic doesn't work as expected.

[bmdaugherty]

Does anyone know if this is a rewire version issue? I am using rewire 1.7 and am experiencing a TON of stuck notes which upon reinit interrupts the MIDI signal FROM Logic TO bidule.

 

I was thinking that it MAY be something with the rewire version. Earlier in the thread, it seemed that not everyone was having this issue and I was just hoping to get some feedback from those who aren't experiencing the issue as to what rewire version you are using.

 

Thanks guys, it really bugs me this rewire stuck notes thing...

[Ashermusic]

Some observations...

 

TIMING: my preliminary conclusion is that timing is better via ReWire. Timing of live mode improves dramatically if the process buffer is set to Large, but the timing of playback mode goes right into the toilet.

.

 

This does not seem to be true here. But I will run some more tests.

[ski]

@ DJ, just google "Plogue Bidule"

[ski]

@ Jay,

 

Here's how I arrived at my conclusion (which, to reiterate, was preliminary)... First, my Bidule test setup:

 

http://www.score2picture.com/logicpix/lilbiddy.jpg

 

The Kontakt Player shown in the screencap is an instance of GPO. In Logic I created three tracks:

 

1. an audio instrument hosting its own Kontakt Player 2 (GPO)

2. a track assigned to Bidule ReWire

3. a track assigned to Bidule 1

 

I recorded a part on track 1 (the Logic instrument) and then copied it to the other two tracks. Then I played back track 1 and 2 and listened for flamming/phasing. I compared what I heard to tracks 1 and 3 playing back. Overall, tracks 1 and 2 playing back simultaneously sounded tighter than tracks 1 and 3.

 

At one point I threw a gain plug across the Aux returning the Plogue-hosted Kontakt Player and set it to flip the phase. At an I/O Buffer size of 64 was able to get near perfect cancellation of the original and ReWire tracks (1 and 2), whereas the original and Bidule-played tracks (1 and 3) didn't cancel as much. Still tight, just not as tight as 1 and 2.

 

The following three parameter have, understandably, a tremendous influence on how tight the ReWired tracks sounded against the original track:

 

• buffer I/O size

• process buffer size

• ReWire mode ("live" or "playback")

 

Your thoughts kind sir?

[stevenson]

wow. it's impressive how tight rewire is then. great test ski.

[Ashermusic]

@ Jay,

 

Here's how I arrived at my conclusion (which, to reiterate, was preliminary)... First, my Bidule test setup:

 

http://www.score2picture.com/logicpix/lilbiddy.jpg

 

The Kontakt Player shown in the screencap is an instance of GPO. In Logic I created three tracks:

 

1. an audio instrument hosting its own Kontakt Player 2 (GPO)

2. a track assigned to Bidule ReWire

3. a track assigned to Bidule 1

 

I recorded a part on track 1 (the Logic instrument) and then copied it to the other two tracks. Then I played back track 1 and 2 and listened for flamming/phasing. I compared what I heard to tracks 1 and 3 playing back. Overall, tracks 1 and 2 playing back simultaneously sounded tighter than tracks 1 and 3.

 

At one point I threw a gain plug across the Aux returning the Plogue-hosted Kontakt Player and set it to flip the phase. At an I/O Buffer size of 64 was able to get near perfect cancellation of the original and ReWire tracks (1 and 2), whereas the original and Bidule-played tracks (1 and 3) didn't cancel as much. Still tight, just not as tight as 1 and 2.

 

The following three parameter have, understandably, a tremendous influence on how tight the ReWired tracks sounded against the original track:

 

• buffer I/O size

• process buffer size

• ReWire mode ("live" or "playback")

 

Your thoughts kind sir?

 

It appears you are correct SKi, timing is tighter with Rewire. I just opened Addictive Drums in PB and as a software instrument in Logic. I played a simple kick and snare part on the PB Midi track and copied it to the AD in Logic, and yes, there is a small amount of flamming.

 

If I adjust the delay in the Inspector on the PB version to -1/192, they are dead on.

 

So now I have to weigh what seems to be the better stability of the Soundlower methodolgy with the better timing of the Rewire methodology.

 

Usually, I come down on the side of stability.

[ski]

Glad to get your feedback on this. I'm still in the very early testing stages of all this BTW, so I have yet to test the stability of any of it. I'm taking it very slowly, as I don't like, er, "surprises"...

 

Cheers!

[stevenson]

So now I have to weigh what seems to be the better stability of the Soundlower methodolgy with the better timing of the Rewire methodology.

 

Usually, I come down on the side of stability.

 

me too.

 

actually, unless you insist on offline bouncing, you can pretty much get good performance from other hosts with plogue as well. if you are using soundflower, why not use mainstage (if you make sure you don't get the midi feedback loop as fred advised)?

 

it all becomes bitty though doesn't it? a bit here and a bit there...probably plogue is the easiest and simplest to use over rewire, but it depends on how soon you hit the cpu wall and what you can do about it.

[Fred B]

..why not use mainstage..

See this thread http://www.logicprohelp.com/viewtopic.php?t=36355

 

So regarding Apple only solutions, Logic Pro + Express is definitely more efficient.

[CCTMusic]

[

 

This discussion has prompted me to do some tests...

 

It would seem that you cannot have 2 instances of Logic Pro running on the same Mac.... BUT...

 

Logic Pro and Logic Express WILL play nicely!

 

Using the IAC to send MIDI from Pro to Express works fine (with Express setup as an 'old-school' (Physical Input direct connected to Instrument Channel strips via a channel splitter object), then return the audio using Soundflower.

 

This seems to offer advantages: Logic Instrument + FX Plugs, as well as 3rd party (any latency and CPU issues aside)

 

 

Mainstage, which will also run alongside Logic Pro, can also be set up to act as a 'multi-timbral' "expander"

 

Just a thought

 

 

Do try this and compare

 

CCT

 

and

 

..why not use mainstage..

See this thread http://www.logicprohelp.com/viewtopic.php?t=36355

 

So regarding Apple only solutions, Logic Pro + Express is definitely more efficient.

 

 

I really wish you guys would give Pro + Express as a slave a try:

 

1 Express is just as (un)happy at 4Gb VM, but works fine around 3Gb, (so you could have 3Gb in Pro + another 3GB in Express) and also seems to run using only 1 processor.

 

2 To save all that messing around that Ski recommends (no offence intended Ski ),

 

http://www.logicprohelp.com/viewtopic.php?t=36590

 

you get full (MIDI) automation that works straight away.

 

3 Access to all the Logic (and AU) FX plugs and mixing capabilities, as well as the Logic Instruments

 

You could also run the whole shebang MTC clocked....

 

 

For £120 or 200 US you might save a lot of pain.

 

 

Just another thought

 

 

CCT

[ski]

No offense taken, CCT. And I'm not knocking your idea by any means.

 

However... I think a strong point of my lil' scheme is that it gives you the look, feel, and functionality of a Logic-hosted plugin even though it's being remotely played plug. Yeah, my post on the subject was long, but to actually set it up takes no time at all. You should try it!

Edited February 1, 2009 by ski

[bmdaugherty]

I agree that timing is way better in rewire, as it should be. Too bad I can't get it to play more than a dozen notes without getting stuck on a note and thus causing me to have to quit both bidule and logic in order to be able to play a dozen more notes.

 

Does nobody have any idea on the rewire version or any other ideas on how to mitigate this issue. Any help would be a godsend.

 

This is a great thread!

[Fred B]

I agree that timing is way better in rewire, as it should be. Too bad I can't get it to play more than a dozen notes without getting stuck on a note and thus causing me to have to quit both bidule and logic in order to be able to play a dozen more notes.

 

Does nobody have any idea on the rewire version or any other ideas on how to mitigate this issue. Any help would be a godsend.

It would be very helpful if you could provide a simple Logic file with reproducible hanging notes, and send it to the Plogue developers. They are highly interested to investigate the issue.

 

See also here http://www.plogue.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3822

[CCTMusic]

 

However... I think a strong point of my lil' scheme is that it gives you the look, feel, and functionality of a Logic-hosted plugin even though it's being remotely played plug. ....... You should try it!

 

 

The strong point of my scheme is that is IS a Logic-hosted plugin !

 

 

I'll try yours, if you'll try mine!

 

CCT

[Fred B]

The strong point of my scheme is that is IS a Logic-hosted plugin !

Sorry, I don't quite understand. Are you saying that Logic Express is a Logic-hosted plugin?

[ski]

CCT, tell me one thing... why should I believe you?

 

 

(j/k)

 

Something tells me that the combination of LE and Logic could prove to be an elegant solution in terms of hosting a greater number of EXS-24 sounds, something which PB can't do. And of couse you can also host 3rd party plugs in LE as well. So if you're saying that LE and Logic can co-exist nicely together, LE would seem to have an advantage over PB. And THEN...

 

If you were to return LE's audio into Logic via Soundflower (or similar), you could use my scheme to have metering, level, panning, sends, and automation appear in a channel strip right next to the track you're recording on in Logic --- and that's the whole point of my lil' system.

 

Sound to you like it would work?

[CCTMusic]

The strong point of my scheme is that is IS a Logic-hosted plugin !

Sorry, I don't quite understand. Are you saying that Logic Express is a Logic-hosted plugin?

 

Hi Fred

 

 

Nooo! Ski has gone to a load of trouble to get "the look and feel of a Logic-hosted plugin" with BP as a slave... and BP does NOT look/feel like Logic.

 

If you run Express as the slave.... it is Logic, so it already has the look n feel

 

 

CCT

[CCTMusic]

CCT, tell me one thing... why should I believe you?

 

 

(j/k)

 

 

Well....

 

I would not recommend buying a used car from me, but.......In this case......?????

 

Something tells me that the combination of LE and Logic could prove to be an elegant solution in terms of hosting a greater number of EXS-24 sounds, something which PB can't do. And of couse you can also host 3rd party plugs in LE as well. So if you're saying that LE and Logic can co-exist nicely together, LE would seem to have an advantage over PB. And THEN...

 

If you were to return LE's audio into Logic via Soundflower (or similar), you could use my scheme to have metering, level, panning, sends, and automation appear in a channel strip right next to the track you're recording on in Logic --- and that's the whole point of my lil' system.

 

Sound to you like it would work?

 

 

Unless I've overlooked something important...

 

 

With Express as a slave ( and a 16ch Soundflower return to Pro):

 

you get standard Track-Based Automation on the MIDI tracks in Pro (right where you want them):Volume, Pan plus any MIDI automation (no direct level metering of the audio)

 

With individual Aux SF returns (not busses...IMHO unnecessary), you get the sends + FX slots if needed, and the metering of the audio coming back

 

 

A quick switch of screenset takes you over to Express, which has the same look n feel ), where you can still access individual Inserts, sends (within Express or back to Pro via an SF channel)... way better than PB.

 

The only drawback is that (so far) I can only get Express to use one CPU when running in a "live" configuration.... still no worse off than with PB.

 

 

I'll look into your method asap!

 

 

Now...

 

about the Ford...d'ya want it.... 1 careful owner... (the one before me)

 

 

CCT

[Fred B]

If you were to return LE's audio into Logic via Soundflower (or similar), you could use my scheme to have metering, level, panning, sends, and automation appear in a channel strip right next to the track you're recording on in Logic --- and that's the whole point of my lil' system.

I'm not sure about that..

If you're using IAC/Soundflower for routing you can utilize the 'External Instrument' feature of Logic to have MIDI and audio control on a single track like with ordinary instruments.

[CCTMusic]

I'm not sure about that..

If you're using IAC/Soundflower for routing you can utilize the 'External Instrument' feature of Logic to have MIDI and audio control on a single track like with ordinary instruments.

 

 

That should work....

 

I'll give it a go later

 

 

CCT

[Fred B]

Just a general remark.

I think the main point of ReWire is accurate timing.

No doubt that in this regard ReWire is superior to any other solution - in theory.

But the discussion about using PB in ReWire mode remains academic as long as the hanging notes problem is not resolved.

[ski]

about the Ford...d'ya want it.... 1 careful owner... (the one before me)

 

You're a helluva salesman.

 

 

A quick switch of screenset takes you over to Express.....

 

That's a show-stopper for me. I'm not really into using sceensets all that much (redraws are way too slow). But more importantly, I'm not sure how much sense it makes to switch to another app to do routine things like set levels or see a meter when I'm recording, automating, or mixing. Sure, working with that app is necessary for setup, but after that? I'd rather not...

[ski]

Looking into the External Instrument for a second... if you're using ReWire, you can select a RW device as a MIDI Destination in the External Instrument. However, you can't return a ReWire audio stream via the External Instrument . Yeah, I know, it's called "external instrument", but it sure would be cool if it could accept RW audio returns. In a manner of speaking, a stand-alone plug is external to Logic... If it did, even I would abandon my lil' system, as it would be redundant.

 

As a further note, when running PB in RW mode it's not possible to route audio out to anything other than ReWire! (You lose the "Audio Devices" option). Doh!

 

Oh well...