CCTMusic Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 Hi Guys I've just tried using the External Instrument to get to/from Express via IAC and Soundflower.. works fine! but.... i guess only for a "basic" setup. SF can only offer 16 audio channels, which gives 8 stereo pairs, so you could only do the Ext Inst thing to have SEPARATE access to 8 stereo instruments in Express. Using Aux's as returns from Express would allow you to sub-group output channels in Express. Ski The screenset idea was an OPTIONAL extra... occasionally you might need to switch over to Express to see what's going on. Generally, levels etc would be apparent in Pro. CCT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ski Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 Cool, thanks for that add'l info. Generally, levels etc would be apparent in Pro. Yeah, but not right in the the Inspector as I like to see it. As I've said before, that's the whole point of my environment. Now, it would be great if there were a way to assign the output of an instrument to an Aux so that the Aux's channel strip would be displayed in the Inspector. But that's not possible. Another idea that doesn't work is to use the Aux object itself as a MIDI "front end", the output of which would get cabled right to the ReWire object. But Aux objects can't be used that way. Anyway, like I said before, I'm not knocking your idea. It makes a lot of sense, though I'd be keen to test the timing of IAC vs. ReWire to see if using Express is indeed a viable option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred B Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 I've just tried using the External Instrument to get to/from Express via IAC and Soundflower.. works fine! but.... i guess only for a "basic" setup. SF can only offer 16 audio channels, which gives 8 stereo pairs, so you could only do the Ext Inst thing to have SEPARATE access to 8 stereo instruments in Express. You could use 'Jack' instead of Soundflower. http://www.jackosx.com/ I've tried it once and found the setup somewhat complicated. But I'd be highly interested if and how it works for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred B Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 As a further note, when running PB in RW mode it's not possible to route audio out to anything other than ReWire! (You lose the "Audio Devices" option). Doh! But makes sense to me. ReWire by design is a "closed" system to assure perfect timing of MIDI and audio. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred B Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 I'd be keen to test the timing of IAC vs. ReWire to see if using Express is indeed a viable option. Using IAC under "normal" conditions I've measured jitter/latency in the order of 1 millisecond. But it seems highly dependent on the actual CPU load. So some more detailed research would be very helpful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fattymatthews Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 Wow, havent been here for a few days, great to see everyone getting involved. PB will be brilliant once they iron out all the issues. Regarding the Hung notes, bmdaugherty i also have mad problems with hung notes. I have sent Seb at plogue a logic file that i created where the notes hang. I get it after about 2 mins of playing. Really sux but hopefully they will be able to resolve it soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmdaugherty Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 Stuck notes suck indeed... To the LP/LE users: Doesn't LE work as a rewire host and as a rewire client just as LP can? Maybe I am dumb, but I thought it did. As to not looking like Logic, I made a skin that attempts to match LP8 color scheme. It looks much like the environment. If anyone is interested I'll post the zip. It's so easy, you just download the zip, open bidule's prefs and import the zip. Bidule does the rest! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred B Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 Doesn't LE work as a rewire host and as a rewire client just as LP can? No, both LP and LE work as master only. Note: Since ReWire includes synchronization the common terms are ReWire master and slave. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CCTMusic Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 @ Jay, Here's how I arrived at my conclusion (which, to reiterate, was preliminary)... First, my Bidule test setup: http://www.score2picture.com/logicpix/lilbiddy.jpg The Kontakt Player shown in the screencap is an instance of GPO. In Logic I created three tracks: 1. an audio instrument hosting its own Kontakt Player 2 (GPO) 2. a track assigned to Bidule ReWire 3. a track assigned to Bidule 1 I recorded a part on track 1 (the Logic instrument) and then copied it to the other two tracks. Then I played back track 1 and 2 and listened for flamming/phasing. I compared what I heard to tracks 1 and 3 playing back. Overall, tracks 1 and 2 playing back simultaneously sounded tighter than tracks 1 and 3. At one point I threw a gain plug across the Aux returning the Plogue-hosted Kontakt Player and set it to flip the phase. At an I/O Buffer size of 64 was able to get near perfect cancellation of the original and ReWire tracks (1 and 2), whereas the original and Bidule-played tracks (1 and 3) didn't cancel as much. Still tight, just not as tight as 1 and 2. The following three parameter have, understandably, a tremendous influence on how tight the ReWired tracks sounded against the original track: • buffer I/O size • process buffer size • ReWire mode ("live" or "playback") Your thoughts kind sir? It appears you are correct SKi, timing is tighter with Rewire. I just opened Addictive Drums in PB and as a software instrument in Logic. I played a simple kick and snare part on the PB Midi track and copied it to the AD in Logic, and yes, there is a small amount of flamming. If I adjust the delay in the Inspector on the PB version to -1/192, they are dead on. So now I have to weigh what seems to be the better stability of the Soundlower methodolgy with the better timing of the Rewire methodology. Usually, I come down on the side of stability. So.... It seems that I am in the position of being able to try all 3 methods???: BP via Rewire BP via via IAC and Soundflower Express 8 via IAC and Soundflower (Not including setting up a second Mac old-school, via MIDI and an audio interface ) Since we are measuring & comparing timing, CPU hit, latency and the like and there are all sorts of parameters that can affect this, it might be a good idea to be comparing Apples with Apples. Rewire mode: PB buffer size? Logic host Rewire settings? IAC and Soundflower..... ??? Express slave: Buffer size??? Most importantly, are we doing a (invert phase) gain plug ear test, or measuring recorded audio in the host at sample accuracy (like a loopback test)? Preliminary results show that PB/IAC/SF is around -1/192 (20 ticks), whilst Logic Express via IAC/SF is around 5 ticks (32 buffer) and 10 ticks (64 buffer). CCT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevenson Posted February 2, 2009 Author Share Posted February 2, 2009 the only reason to use express or a non-rewire method of hosting audio units is in order to get multi-processor support. 96 rewire channels is sufficient for most applicaitons, 16 soundflower might be too limited. timing may be adequate with IAC/soundflower (i don't know) but the main limitation of rewire is the limit you might incur with multi-threading (leaving aside the hanging-note problem for the moment). the test therefore you need to be making is to work out at what point which breaks down. so: - test logicpro/logic express over IAC and soundflower with sufficient demands to tax processing and memory. - test plogue bidule/rewire the same way and see if you can run same. compare timing for sure if you suspect it is an issue, but remember we are trying to exploit the new computers fully. the 'old' way was to use multi-computers over vastly less accurate external midi interfaces. all we are trying to do is replicate that studio on one computer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ski Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 Most importantly, are we doing a (invert phase) gain plug ear test, or measuring recorded audio in the host at sample accuracy (like a loopback test)? Although my tests were preliminary (and I stated as such in my posts), to answer your question, please re-read my post wherein I described how I reached my conclusions. I'm all for looking at the numbers and doing the scientific tests. But in this case it was easy enough for me to judge the timing accuracy of one approach over another just by comparing the sound of the comb filtering that resulted from the tests I did, again, described above. Depending on the size of the process buffer and other influencing factors (as I described), it's not even necessary to do a phase cancellation test or get scientific about anything because the results are obvious in the form of highly noticeable delay of the PB-hosted sound. That said, I'm sure it would be highly informative if you could do some definitive tests and post your findings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashermusic Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 uot;]A quick switch of screenset takes you over to Express..... That's a show-stopper for me. I'm not really into using sceensets all that much (redraws are way too slow). But more importantly, I'm not sure how much sense it makes to switch to another app to do routine things like set levels or see a meter when I'm recording, automating, or mixing. Sure, working with that app is necessary for setup, but after that? I'd rather not... This I simply do not understand. Before the consolidated Arrange window was introduced, I used screensets. Now that we have it, I still primarily use screensets. It takes more time for me to be constantly resizing the built-in Score and Piano Roll editors than to simply hit a number key and have it re-draw. Plus, it is the only way I can see the following: 1. A combo view of a score, piano roll, and event list. 2. A combo of 2 Mixers, one set to Arrange and one set to SIngle. 3. A combo of a score in full score and another showing single part. 4. A combo of a score showing strings only and another showing woodwinds only. The bottom line is that screensets are an indispensable part of my workflow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ski Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 It's a matter of personal preference, that's all. Sure, I use them from time to time, mostly when developing complex environments. And if there's one screenset I use semi-regularly it's to swap what I see on my left and right monitors. Normally I work with the arrange view on the left, movie on the right. I have a screenset that swaps those. But personally I find it disconcerting to see the various screens flash as they open and close and reconfigure. So I open and close editors as I need them with key commands. One of these days you 'n' me should get together and I'll show you how I work. Either you'll have a Eureka moment or you'll break down in fits of hysterics... Meanwhile, it's not like I'm recommending against people using screensets. Quite the contrary -- I realize their potential as a highly useful asset. I just choose to work differently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashermusic Posted February 2, 2009 Share Posted February 2, 2009 It's a matter of personal preference, that's all. Sure, I use them from time to time, mostly when developing complex environments. And if there's one screenset I use semi-regularly it's to swap what I see on my left and right monitors. Normally I work with the arrange view on the left, movie on the right. I have a screenset that swaps those. But personally I find it disconcerting to see the various screens flash as they open and close and reconfigure. So I open and close editors as I need them with key commands. One of these days you 'n' me should get together and I'll show you how I work. Either you'll have a Eureka moment or you'll break down in fits of hysterics... Meanwhile, it's not like I'm recommending against people using screensets. Quite the contrary -- I realize their potential as a highly useful asset. I just choose to work differently. I've seen you in action. I did not have fits of hysterics but I did snicker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ski Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 I've seen you in action. I did not have fits of hysterics but I did snicker Is it the same kind of snickering I do when you insist that I not use bus objects? ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevenson Posted February 3, 2009 Author Share Posted February 3, 2009 Is it the same kind of snickering I do when you insist that I not use bus objects? no, it's because you had something unfortunate dangling from your nose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashermusic Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 BTW, after some fairly extensive testing, I am now back to using PB w/ ReWire. The tiiming was just not tight enough with the Soundflower method. Thankfully, I am not experiencing the hanging notes issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ski Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 Is it the same kind of snickering I do when you insist that I not use bus objects? no, it's because you had something unfortunate dangling from your nose. Oh that... Yeah, I got a lot of comments about my new adornment... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevenson Posted February 3, 2009 Author Share Posted February 3, 2009 what? do you mean your glasses? yeah...they're pretty sharp... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ski Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 Thankfully, I am not experiencing the hanging notes issue. Ooh, that's interesting! I'd be curious to know what plugs you're hosting in Plogue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashermusic Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 Thankfully, I am not experiencing the hanging notes issue. Ooh, that's interesting! I'd be curious to know what plugs you're hosting in Plogue. So far: ArtVista Virtual Grand (Kontakt 2 player) A Kontakt 3 instance with 5 of Kirk Hunter's Ruby Strings (Vln 1 &2, Vla, Vlc, and CB) A second Kontakt 3 instnce with Pettinhouse's Direct Guitar 2. An instance of Omnisphere. I instance of Stormdrum 2 with 2 patches loaded (Play) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guavadude Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 Jay can you please confirm what version of the rewire engine you have working? I definitely have the hanging notes....still trying to find a way around it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashermusic Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 Jaycan you please confirm what version of the rewire engine you have working? I definitely have the hanging notes....still trying to find a way around it. 1.7, I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muses Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 I sorted out the hanging notes problem using this technique... may have already been mentioned above, but I thought I'd throw it in here, just in case it hadn't... http://www.plogue.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3675&highlight=hanging Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muses Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 p.s. it was EastWest SO Platinum that was the problem for me, in terms of hanging notes, in case that helps at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ski Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 muses, I can confirm that the solution you linked to works -- no stuck notes. But the tradeoff is timing accuracy. Using the Bidule Rewire instead of the MIDI Bidule results in tighter timing (dependent on various factors, such as your I/O buffer setting, process buffer setting, etc.). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guavadude Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 Jaycan you please confirm what version of the rewire engine you have working? I definitely have the hanging notes....still trying to find a way around it. 1.7, I think. You can find it by control-clicking on Reason app/Show Pkg Contents/Contents/Plugins. latest version is 4.0.1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashermusic Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 Jaycan you please confirm what version of the rewire engine you have working? I definitely have the hanging notes....still trying to find a way around it. 1.7, I think. You can find it by control-clicking on Reason app/Show Pkg Contents/Contents/Plugins. latest version is 4.0.1 Ah, and 4.0.1 it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muses Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 muses, I can confirm that the solution you linked to works -- no stuck notes. But the tradeoff is timing accuracy. Using the Bidule Rewire instead of the MIDI Bidule results in tighter timing (dependent on various factors, such as your I/O buffer setting, process buffer setting, etc.). Thanks, ski. I only started fiddling with it yesterday and am still only wetting my toes. Aurally it sounded pretty tight (I used a song which I had recently completed and had a few hungry plugins I removed and reinserted as RW objects via PB) using the Midi Bidules, and I have my Ensemble and PB I/O both set to 1024. But I haven't done sample accurate testing yet to see how far off it all is. Either way, this tool for me will work best as a project mixing application, rather than helping me compose, as the latency is unbearable. I can't set the I/O to less than 256 if I'm using BFD2, for instance, as all I get are crackles. I'm so spoiled by near-zero latency right now in Logic, even 256 is unbearable ... I know, I'm just being greedy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muses Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 boy! do I take that back... you're not kidding about the latency using the Midi Bidules. I must have been so happy that I figured out a way around the stuck notes thing that I just didn't hear it last night. Oh well, back to the drawing board. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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