Has Apple abandoned Logic???

[bmdaugherty]

marcel I agree as of late apple has been increasingly consumer oriented, but that does not mean that they are getting out of the professional biz. I mean they have final cut studio, which is huge in the industry. There's Aperture, a growing competitor in the pro photo market, and Shake, an extensive and fairly standard compositing application.

 

Of course there is also Logic and you are right that it is inexpensive. You are also right that you should spend your money on analog gear as much as possible and use a DAW as a digital tape machine, however several issues I experience, and I know others experience as well, are "editing tape deck" issues with logic, such as comps being broken and undo not always undoing.

 

Upon realizing this, I was forced to examine the proposed advantages to using a DAW over using an all analog workflow. One advantage to a DAW is the visual editing, but logic has graphic glitches. Also, the ability to undo accidental recordings or bad punches, another issue with logic, is paramount to Digital workflows. These are IMO the 2 greatest features of working in digital, along with track counts and recallability. Since logic seems to have problems in several of these areas, I was forced to rethink my toolset.

 

If Logic fits your workflow, use it.

[bdtunes]

I really don't think what we're doing is whining. The driving thought here is to get a designer's attention and to improve a product.

 

If people continue to purchase and upgrade LP, what can Apple intuit except what they are doing is working?? What they should intuit is that people need and support their product.

 

What percentage of our concerns does Apple ever get to know? What cycle in their R&D is even open to considerations for LP improvements? They are both small windows of access.

 

.....4 separate DAWs????!!! True. As long as the lower end audio programs generate $, they will not let them go. Apple's corporate size of late necessitates a wider product line to sustain the machine. True? You tell me.

 

Besides trying to hurt the competition, why do you think Apple reduced the price of LP with the release of LP8? It was a brilliant move by their marketing staff at appeasement and lowering their own obligations to a pro market. They sweetened the pot while indirectly making a pro product more available to the "masses". Basic math prevailed from that point. Where it leaves us is the main concern.

 

I just finished a session for Disney today using PT. So many basic edits in PT need to be in LP. There's nothing but basic common sense that fuels this belief. PT has its own list of problems; it's far from perfect. But all I could think to myself was...."wish LP could do that"......."wish LP could do this". And it could. Nothing is preventing that. As bureaucratic and disloyal Digi may have been in the past to their client base, and continue to do so today, their product works at a rate or level that is beyond practical functionality.

 

This thread is not about bashing Apple/LP and complaining about the finer points of a pro platform. This is about bringing LP to its full realization. LP is so deep in its abilities that what often should be one smart move ends up being four workaround moves. There are enough talented people who continue to stretch the boundaries of LP in search of more features etc. That is only a testament to LP's brilliance. This forum is proof of that. The current trend of updates-alarmingly few as they are- alludes to a band-aid analogy for what should be one-time FIXes.

 

Our fingers are crossed but our eyes are wide open and aware of what could be.

[Waterboy]

@ bdtunes: Touché sir. Very good points.

[Spectacle]

@ bdtunes: Touché sir. Very good points.

Waterboy, I just noticed your training status for the first time today. Brilliant!!

[Ashermusic]

I really don't think what we're doing is whining. The driving thought here is to get a designer's attention and to improve a product.

 

If people continue to purchase and upgrade LP, what can Apple intuit except what they are doing is working?? What they should intuit is that people need and support their product.

 

What percentage of our concerns does Apple ever get to know? What cycle in their R&D is even open to considerations for LP improvements? They are both small windows of access.

 

.....4 separate DAWs????!!! True. As long as the lower end audio programs generate $, they will not let them go. Apple's corporate size of late necessitates a wider product line to sustain the machine. True? You tell me.

 

Besides trying to hurt the competition, why do you think Apple reduced the price of LP with the release of LP8? It was a brilliant move by their marketing staff at appeasement and lowering their own obligations to a pro market. They sweetened the pot while indirectly making a pro product more available to the "masses". Basic math prevailed from that point. Where it leaves us is the main concern.

 

I just finished a session for Disney today using PT. So many basic edits in PT need to be in LP. There's nothing but basic common sense that fuels this belief. PT has its own list of problems; it's far from perfect. But all I could think to myself was...."wish LP could do that"......."wish LP could do this". And it could. Nothing is preventing that. As bureaucratic and disloyal Digi may have been in the past to their client base, and continue to do so today, their product works at a rate or level that is beyond practical functionality.

 

This thread is not about bashing Apple/LP and complaining about the finer points of a pro platform. This is about bringing LP to its full realization. LP is so deep in its abilities that what often should be one smart move ends up being four workaround moves. There are enough talented people who continue to stretch the boundaries of LP in search of more features etc. That is only a testament to LP's brilliance. This forum is proof of that. The current trend of updates-alarmingly few as they are- alludes to a band-aid analogy for what should be one-time FIXes.

 

Our fingers are crossed but our eyes are wide open and aware of what could be.

 

There is a lot to address here but I only have time to address a few.

 

1. I appreciate your tone, and I certainly do not think you are whining.

 

2. Apple, or at least the former Emagic developers who still are the guys doing Logic, knows 100% of your concerns. There is nothing that has been posted in this thread that has not been brought to their attention by beta testers, a long list of pros who they talk to, not to mention guys like David and myself.

 

3. While there are many things I wish were in Logic that PT has, like Import Session Data and Beat Detective, I am not aware of any "editing" features that I cannot do as well in Logic. If I am wrong, please explain why to me.

[bdtunes]

Waterboy, thank you for your sentiment. And congrats on your training credit.

 

Jay, I appreciate your response. I welcome an opportunity to really communicate my points with you. It may appear that I have a great deal of time, if my entries in this forum are any indication. I wish. I feel this is an important discussion, though.

 

As I have done in the recent past with others, I invite you to correspond with me outside of this forum where ?s and responses can flow more freely. We're both CA residents. I'm sure we can work something out, schedule wise, that will maximize the quality of our exchange. Again, thank you. I'll drop by your website in a bit!!

[bdtunes]

You know, I can't afford to return to Cubase. I converted so many Windows (Cakewalk), DP, and even Emagic users years ago to Cubase, that Steinberg actually used to give me......I really can't say. But I moved to Logic for the very reasons that dmDaugherty mentioned: Mac OSX, Mac computer, Logic ammended for OSX, etc., etc., all working together. No one else was doing that then. I thought it was bold and really great of Apple to do that. Finally, substantial progress. What happened??????????????????? Yeah it's good....but how can it be great if its not being supported. It shouldn't be up to a forum to do the work of the manufacturer. That gig belongs to Apple.

 

LP7 does work for me, mostly. I have had to tolerate certain aspects of the program to reach my destination. But I do get there. What's sad and unacceptable is what I lose along the way, creatively, as a result of intermittent problems that arise, distracting me from the fragile process of trying to capture an idea that is so often fleeting. Or else the silliness of its methodology in dealing with common navigational and editing moves. It just gets old.

 

I'm not trying to form alliances with anyone here and I'm definitely not trying to alienate anyone either. I've been reading threads on this forum for years before I ever made a PEEP! WHY NOW THEN????? Because what is happening to this product is a result of bad business. Apple should be shedding tears of joy knowing that they have a user base this dedicated to voicing their minds. The common thread that runs through every comment ever made in this forum is that we have all made a commitment to LP. You think I have the time to sit here and list my edit issues with the surrounding parameters in the detail they require??? That's just not viable. Moderators should be appreciative of those that make that much effort, regardless of users' obvious frustrations. And often I think that's what prevents users from disclosing things. Communicating these bugs, issues can be intimidating, especially when you're doing so in front of so many attentive eyes. It's an act of vulnerability that needs to be acknowledged, quantified, qualified and solved. The scenario of ......"it's not happening to me".....or....."I can't reproduce it here".....by certain moderators is just not cool. Nothing gets fixed.

 

How many of you pro guys are really trying to bend LP? Putting it through it's paces? Making LP sweat? I'm not talking about the basic stuff that just doesn't need much from the CPU. I've heard people's stuff that sounded good, but the intricacy of their arrangements were often....well...let's just say lacking dimension. I know a good riff when I hear one and I can recognize an exceptional effort when it comes to writing, processing, and mastering. With all due respect to everyone in the higher echelons of this forum....i have heard some compositions from certain persons and really was left wanting. Knowledge of software does not equal composing prowess, chops or anything of the sort. The point is that those that steer this ship of threads and advanced knowledge aren't necessarily the ones who have accomplished the same level of an end product as their knowledge would suggest. Just because you know so doesn't mean you write so. So they should not think they have the position to disqualify others' bugs, issues, whatever.

 

I just don't feel that there is an equal playing field across the board, from moderator to user, for full disclosure or even acknowledgement of plaguing issues. Yes there is diplomacy offered by the moderators, on the most part, to impart their own brand of assistance and humility when faced with their own oversights. We appreciate that. Your position demands it.

 

But because you make $$ off of something doesn't mean it's ok to accept it's shortcomings. Or to try and soften the reality of the matter by pointing the finger at the competition to show that they have problems too. It's not a conflict of interest to address bugs when you've written material that supports the product. It's part of the perfecting process. Followers point the finger and solution oriented people bear down and fix their own stuff before they look away. You think Chopin complained that Liszt was technically better than him??? No he woodshedded in solitude until his problems were addressed and THEN he showed the world.

 

I also recognize a bug when I see one. It's a bit insulting to be told that a problem with the software rests with the user. This isn't the first DAW I've ever used. It should be easily perceivable to anyone when a poser complains of a problem and when a power user does the same. It's painfully obvious..come on!!!! I once attempted to SELECT ALL the regions in an LP7 song, which happened to be using a handful of Apple Loops. I cannot tell you how much I loved that song. Well, LP crashed HARD when I tried to drag the entire song to allow for a longer intro to the piece. After repeated attempts to open that file, I had to abandon it forever. And BTW, I've never used Apple Loops since. Never felt that creatively honest using it in the first place. Whatever. So...how do you respond to that? I troubleshot every possible angle. I never salvaged that song. This is ONE example. I have many. And yet.....I'm still here. Why?? Because like others whose bugs have been marginalized, I am here because LP is a great product. I've raved to so many in my networking efforts. I've converted and baptized several users to purchase LP. They even have newer versions than I do. I know a BUG when I get bitten by one!!!!!!!

 

One person's bugs are bugs. They are not to be disqualified or disregarded. This is a matter of principle and business ethics. I used to really respect Apple. I don't disrespect them now. I'm just indifferent in regards to how they've changed since their iPhone,iPod, f'n this and f'n that product that reaks of consumer, proletariat nonsense. iPods??????!! MP3s?????? I work as hard as I do so I can have a product that degrades my sweat down to an MP3????? I will never buy an iPod no matter how popular it gets. And so I digress. Apple is more consumer oriented than its ever been. It's become like Phil Collins and Elton John have become in their older years...cheesy. Couldn't say that years ago now could we?? No way. But everyone's going for the buck to pad their retirement accounts for later on at the expense of now.

 

I'd like to see LP have a larger user base. But at what cost???! Obviously, it's bigger now than when it was just Emagic running the show. Somethings have been lost in this transition.

 

PT is slowly creeping up on all the sequencer platforms. The latest rev of PT includes a further reaching solution for sequencing; a long time hassle for all composers attempting to use earlier versions of PT for composition. If Apple doesn't read the sign of these times, PT will gobble up whatever remains of the truly competitive pro audio sequencing demographic. And LP will die and another great product user base will be left reeling.

 

I don't have the $ or the time to leave LP and I really don't want to.

 

Mediocrity should never be tolerated. And inaction does exactly that to a potentially great product.

[ski]

bdtunes wrote:

 

Moderators should be appreciative of those that make that much effort, regardless of users' obvious frustrations. And often I think that's what prevents users from disclosing things. Communicating these bugs, issues can be intimidating, especially when you're doing so in front of so many attentive eyes. It's an act of vulnerability that needs to be acknowledged, quantified, qualified and solved. The scenario of ......"it's not happening to me".....or....."I can't reproduce it here".....by certain moderators is just not cool. Nothing gets fixed.

 

@ bdtunes, which moderators are you referring to?

 

@ Jay, you say that the developers are 100% aware of all of the problems listed here. I doubt this very much. But even if your claim is true, I don't think it matters because the developers seem incapable of remedying these problems! Brilliant as they might very well be, they have shown themselves to be an overly ambitious group -- dreamers, perhaps, or just really good salesmen -- who after a decade and a half of development still can't deliver an application that works as advertised (but still get to keep their jobs, I presume). The result of their efforts often smacks of mediocrity -- if not downright failure -- in many absolutely key areas. At least that's how it appears on the surface.

 

Now, of course, Logic is FAR from useless. Like many of you, I work  m a g i c  on this platform. But sometimes the price for working that Logic mojo is just too high; meanwhile, no one from the company cares. At least in public they don't seem to.

[bdtunes]

Ski...I'm not going to do that. This isn't about pointing fingers, it's about changing attitudes. They know who they are. Silence is just as damaging as disregarding someone's issues. All of this is meant to be constructive.

 

I've read many of your comments in hundreds and hundreds of threads, over the years. And your sentiment in the last entry validates you once more.

 

Best,

[jaytranzmit]

Have to agree with the sentiment. It's kind of annoying when you can see something getting broken.

 

I hate what Apple have done to the EXS in 8. Why on earth would they cripple it with such slow new/save issues?!. The more user patches you have the sloooower it is, something that wasn't in previous versions.

 

More regular fixes would be appreciated and bin off big release numbers for a while. The most important thing is reliabilty.

[marcel72]

But because you make $$ off of something doesn't mean it's ok to accept it's shortcomings...

 

...I don't have the $ or the time to leave LP and I really don't want to.

Bdtunes, with all respect (and I mean that), I think there's a hole in what you're saying. Professionalism means spending the time and the money it takes to get the tools you need to do your job, or alternately finding ways to get your job done with the tools you have. This is always going to mean sacrifice on some level - either financial (buying what you need) or temporal (living with what you got)...

 

I know you guys are frustrated, but I think that's clouding your judgement a bit. I've been saying this on this forum since I tried the first version of L8 with its broken comping and constant graphics issues:

 

Apple does not care much about satisfying professional users on the software front. They want to sell hardware, and they're smart enough to know that most pros are already in their pocket on this front, whether they use Logic, PT, Performer, whatever. Getting kids to bug mom for a macbook pro so they can 'make beats' in their bedroom with Logic is probably more important to them then you or I are.

 

I think you need to consider this, without prejudice, when making your choices in this area.

 

I hope I haven't offended anyone by saying this (not that I hadn't already done that by calling you guys whiners - apologies for that!), but I really believe it's true.

[Ashermusic]

bdtunes wrote:

 

Moderators should be appreciative of those that make that much effort, regardless of users' obvious frustrations. And often I think that's what prevents users from disclosing things. Communicating these bugs, issues can be intimidating, especially when you're doing so in front of so many attentive eyes. It's an act of vulnerability that needs to be acknowledged, quantified, qualified and solved. The scenario of ......"it's not happening to me".....or....."I can't reproduce it here".....by certain moderators is just not cool. Nothing gets fixed.

 

@ bdtunes, which moderators are you referring to?

 

@ Jay, you say that the developers are 100% aware of all of the problems listed here. I doubt this very much. But even if your claim is true, I don't think it matters because the developers seem incapable of remedying these problems! Brilliant as they might very well be, they have shown themselves to be an overly ambitious group -- dreamers, perhaps, or just really good salesmen -- who after a decade and a half of development still can't deliver an application that works as advertised (but still get to keep their jobs, I presume). The result of their efforts often smacks of mediocrity -- if not downright failure -- in many absolutely key areas. At least that's how it appears on the surface.

 

Now, of course, Logic is FAR from useless. Like many of you, I work  m a g i c  on this platform. But sometimes the price for working that Logic mojo is just too high; meanwhile, no one from the company cares. At least in public they don't seem to.

 

Let's assume that we both are correct: that they are aware of the bugs bur cannot fix them.

 

You are still left with the same options:

 

1. Go to another less buggy app, endure the learning curve, which unfortunately, does not exist with the possible exception of a PT HD rig, which has its own issues, like cost and RTAS inefficiency.

 

2. Stay with a older version of Logic and eventually deal with incompatibility issues.

 

3. Stop using DAWS.

 

4. Complain endlessly here, knowing full well that you are having zero effect on what happens with Logic or Apple's attitude.

 

Your choice

[ski]

Let's assume that we both are correct: that they are aware of the bugs but cannot fix them.

 

You are still left with the same options:

 

1. Go to another less buggy app, endure the learning curve, which unfortunately, does not exist with the possible exception of a PT HD rig, which has its own issues, like cost and RTAS inefficiency.

 

2. Stay with a older version of Logic and eventually deal with incompatibility issues.

 

Glad to assume we might both be correct. The above two options illustrate precisely why the situation is so frustrating.

 

3. Stop using DAWS.

 

An impractical, impossible option.

 

4. Complain endlessly here, knowing full well that you are having zero effect on what happens with Logic or Apple's attitude.

 

I don't think that complaining here (or on other forums) has zero effect. I think it is effective on two fronts:

 

a) it is purported that Apple's developers pay (particular) attention to what's posted in this forum as well as others

 

b) writing about bugs alerts other users to pitfalls they will encounter when attempting certain operations; as I've said a million times before, being familiar with Logic's bugs is an important (if not essential) part of running this DAW. There's the manual (for learning about features and how things work) and then there's the anti-manual (bug reports and other posts explaining how things don't work, and potential workarounds in some cases).

 

This paradigm is true of all DAWs, if not all software programs. But with respect to Logic, when the damn thing can't successfully play back my music when playback is initiated from a downbeat, I can't help but think that such behavior should be highly embarrassing to Apple/Logic -- embarrassing to the point where some programmer's ass is getting kicked into high gear to address the issue.

 

And that's just one major bugaboo...

 

To summarize what bdtunes said... "Eschew mediocrity". Perhaps the complaints being voiced here and elsewhere will help advance this concept if the right people read this. It's worth taking a chance that they will.

 

Fortunately, complaints about Logic don't dominate this forum. To put things in perspective, this thread is just one amongst thousands here on this forum. And the situation isn't entirely dire, is it? Myself -- a long-time critic of Apple during their stewardship of Logic -- continue to not only use the program but advocate using it (including many of its advanced features) as well as teach it from time to time. There's no love like Logic love when things are working. On this I think we can all agree. But there's a dark side which most of us Logic punters can only address vis a vis public airing of grievances, again, in the hopes that the complaints will trickle up and be heard.

 

That's my take. Anyway, I have an Environment to finish up and music to write, so back to [whispers] the Logic grindstone I go.

 

[bmdaugherty]

Jay, see you're working the wrong angle. The point is not having apple hear each and every post in this thread, nor is it to drive people away from Logic. It is to discuss the ideal of what a professional DAW developer should be and discuss how we, as the user base, can help push apple and logic, who have fallen short of the mark, in that direction. If you think that it's a useless endeavor, stop wasting your time on this thread.

 

Also, you seem to have missed entire sections of my posts where I repeatedly point out that workflow has a serious impact on the number, type, and severity of bugs encountered. Nuendo for instance, has far fewer bugs WHEN USING MY PREFERRED WORKFLOW.

 

On the topic of workflow, you say that the devs talk to "pros". What kind of work do these "pros" do? Is their work diverse enough to beta test every aspect of Logic? Can I see a list of the studios that they talk to? Where can I sign up to be part of the beta testing circuit? One thing I have noticed is that you seem to have a hard time identifying bugs in the first place, so having you talk to the devs might not be helping...

[Larry Mal]

What I notice about threads like these, here and on other forums like Gearslutz, the Apple Discussions page, is an incredible frustration at customers not being spoken to. This is a little different of a market than some of Apple's other customer bases, this is a group of professional users who are making/trying to make a living with this product. They feel a little frustrated that they have no idea what is going on with the development of the product, and especially when they see other products being developed in pretty exciting ways, while Logic drifts.

 

Apple will drop some wonderful Logic 9 at some point, but that isn't exactly the issue, folks want to think their professional application that they use for their livelihood is being well supported, and the total lack of communication is frustrating. We know that Logic is being developed. Why can no one talk about it? What is the point of this silence?

 

That being said, I have absolutely no problems with Logic, and really never have. Maybe I just don't hit the problem areas, somehow- my MIDI work isn't that deep, I don't use the comping, and the score editor not much at all. I don't even find the audio editing problematic. It's a relief to me to be able to mix in Logic.

[xlm]

In regards to Apple abandoning Logic, FCP Studio 3.0 is apparently in beta and other Pro Apps upgrades in development are waiting on the Snow Leopard release this summer. May or may not include Logic Studio 2.0 as no specific details on it in this piece.

 

http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/09/05/29/final_cut_studio_3_0_final_cut_server_update_in_apples_pipeline.html

[bmdaugherty]

Larry, thats my point exactly. If people are so involved in Logic's development, why can nobody talk about it? Why are there people on this very forum, who claim to be in communication with the devs that can't tell us s#!+? Did you have to sign an NDA just to be able to know when the next release will be?

 

I have used freeware with better support than Logic. Knowing is half the battle.

[muziksculp]

In regards to Apple abandoning Logic, FCP Studio 3.0 is apparently in beta and other Pro Apps upgrades in development are waiting on the Snow Leopard release this summer. May or may not include Logic Studio 2.0 as no specific details on it in this piece.

 

http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/09/05/29/final_cut_studio_3_0_final_cut_server_update_in_apples_pipeline.html

 

Just shows you how high Logic Pro is on Apple's priority list. Not even a mention !

 

Well, I'm very happy with my decision to switch to Cubase 5, and even abandon LP8, before Apple surprises me with another year or two of waiting for bugs, and development BS, with their next DAW venture.

 

If, and only if, I notice a dramatic change in Apple's way of dealing with their Pro-Audio application support, and development, would I even bother looking into using LP9, or LP10, or whatever they may release in the future.

 

Cubase 5 is a great DAW, and so is Yamaha/Steinberg. Plus, I feel so much better not putting all my eggs in one basket, and would recommend it to other DAW users, diversify, don't rely on one, and only one DAW, be flexible, Just in case things go wrong in one DAW, you have a spare DAW in your trunk !

 

Just my 2 ¢ worth of advice

[bdtunes]

But because you make $$ off of something doesn't mean it's ok to accept it's shortcomings...

 

I know you guys are frustrated, but I think that's clouding your judgement a bit. I've been saying this on this forum since I tried the first version of L8 with its broken comping and constant graphics issues:

 

Apple does not care much about satisfying professional users on the software front. They want to sell hardware, and they're smart enough to know that most pros are already in their pocket on this front, whether they use Logic, PT, Performer, whatever. Getting kids to bug mom for a macbook pro so they can 'make beats' in their bedroom with Logic is probably more important to them then you or I are.

 

I think you need to consider this, without prejudice, when making your choices in this area.

 

I hope I haven't offended anyone by saying this (not that I hadn't already done that by calling you guys whiners - apologies for that!), but I really believe it's true.

 

 

Marcel, if I knew you better I"d send you a picture of my studio. With this gesture, you would clearly see that investing in product and making sacrifices is really all I've done for my art's sake. That's not even remotely the case. No hard feelings. You just couldn't be more off the mark than what you assumed.

 

I will not accept the current status quo of LP.

 

Harping on this issue is not a matter of or expecting to be heard. The initiative here, at least for me, is to build a consensus and collective agreement on this subject, with the rest of this community. And I'm hoping this open dialogue will prompt more people to come forth with their own opinions on this matter.

 

If someone is listening that matters, then it can only help. But how can the plane know we're stranded if we don't light the fire??????

 

I am well beyond the point of frustration. All is calm on the horizon. This just needs to be discussed.

[Ashermusic]

A propos of this discussion:

 

This morning I was in a LA recording studio with a successful record producer/guitarist, who produces a few bands you would probably know. They have been having a terrible time mostly just trying to record 24 tracks of audio and called me early in the week. They had constant CPU spiking, even though it is an 8 core powerhouse Mac with plenty of RAM and no third party plug-ins.

 

Earlier in the week they had called me and I had given them a few suggestions which did not work, as did a couple of people from Apple. They decided to tough it out and not have me come over but today I did go over just to say hi, and one thing led to another.

 

My guess is by this time most of the folks in this discussion in that position would be saying, "Logic 8 is a buggy p.o.s,, Apple needs to fix this, bla-bla-blah."

 

But I know a system specific issue when i see one and this was one. After a few more tests that did not rectify the situation, I had him create a new user and log-in, then open the project and the spiking was gone.

 

What probably happened was when he installed and them took out some Euphonix control surface software that was problematic, it corrupted that user folder, so a new user fixed it. And when he does a clean install of the OS and LP8, it will be just fine.

 

So, it had nothing to do with Logic at all, but if a Logic Whisperer like me or David does not show up and figure it out, Logic gets the blame, and what is a system specific issue gets attributed to bugginess.

 

Are there bugs in LP8? Yes. Are there in LP7? Yes. Are there every bit as many and just as annoying ones in DP and Cubase? In my experience, and trust me, it is more vast than most of yours, yes. Visit their forums and you will see. Hell, there is a Gearslutz thread going on entitled "After 16 years of using Digital Performer, I quit!"

 

Should Apple fix the bugs? Of course. Does Apple have a crappy attitude of non-communication with its pro user base? Yes it does.

 

My point is, do not be so quick to throw the word "bug" around until you are sure it is one, and once again, agree with me or not, the music software industry does not define an issue as a bug as that happens to only a small number of users. Because when it only happens to a small number of users, it is usually system specific.

[xlm]

Jay

 

I'm not sure your categorization of "system specific issue" is accurate. Yes, it is system specific in the sense that Logic running on computer A exhibits a problem that Logic running on computer B doesn't. But is the problem Logic has with the removal of the software a problem for *every* DAW running on the system? It is truly a system specific issue if the answer is yes. So for instance, if the 'A" key on the keyboard doesn't work, then that's a system specific problem. It will be a problem for all applications on that computer regardless of how much error handling the developers have built into their code. But if Logic falls over when a piece of software is removed and other DAWs don't, then one could argue it IS an issue with Logic.

 

So I think you have to be careful when casting such a broad definition on what is a system specific problem, and therefore something you don't think is the responsibility of the Logic developers. This particular issue of CPU spikes, as you know, is something that has plagued a lot of Logic users for a while now. I've never had the problem myself, so I might conclude it can't be a Logic issue. But the fact that spiking seems to be worse in Logic than other DAWs does suggest this is a Logic problem, even though it appears a particular set of external circumstances are required before the problem manifests itself.

[bmdaugherty]

Also, these issues you site as examples are performance based issues. These are highly subjective issues that are based on background processes, ram usage, disc permissions, disc space, and the like. I as you can see by reading my list, I mostly have logical issues with the program... ya know, wrong things selecting, undo, comps, wrong file in editor, etc.

 

The very idea to having to resort to logic "wisperers" is funny to me. It's software, it's not supposed to have a mystical untamed side. It's just supposed to logically, predictably preform tasks, sans magic.

 

I will not accept the current status quo of LP.

 

Harping on this issue is not a matter of or expecting to be heard. The initiative here, at least for me, is to build a consensus and collective agreement on this subject, with the rest of this community. And I'm hoping this open dialogue will prompt more people to come forth with their own opinions on this matter.

 

Exactly...

[ski]

Jay wrote:

 

the music software industry does not define an issue as a bug as that happens to only a small number of users.

 

What about the case where only a small number of users attempting to implement a little-used feature -- one which can be proven to be buggy across multiple systems and computer types -- doesn't work? Case in point:

 

Logic's ability to display picture position in Feet and Frames (f/f for short). Great, fantastic, you can do this in Logic! In fact, were it not for Logic's ability to display timecode thus I wouldn't have been able to work on (what ended up being) a very lucrative job for Warner Bros. last year.

 

But there's a problem. There's nice big fat juicy time-wasting BUG associated with f/f operations.

 

Now... how often do composers work in feet/frames as opposed to straight-up timecode? I don't really know the answer to that question, but so far that project was a unique circumstance for me. For sake of example, let's assume that it is indeed unusual to work in f/f. And then let's consider how many Logic-based composers there compared to the rest of Logic's user-base (which is likely much smaller than the number of, say, "causal" users). With these things in mind, does this bug no longer count as a bug because only a small number out of a minority of Logic's users find that a little-used feature doesn't work correctly?

 

My point is that the quantity of users who experience a problem has absolutely no bearing on whether or not an operational difficulty can be considered a bug.

 

Whether bugs get fixed (or not) often has nothing to do with the number of users experiencing it.

 

A bug can exist in everyone's system but is only exposed and experienced by a relatively small number of users because of the nature of the project and/or a particular workflow.

 

Truth be told, it often comes down to a purely administrative (or even marketing) decision as to whether the ol' gal gets shipped out to make public appearances before she's had time to put on all of her makeup.

Edited May 30, 2009 by ski

[bdtunes]

As quantified and qualified examples of a problematic LP7/8 continue to be voiced, it is clear that the mere stumbling block of what defines a bug and a system failure for some cannot substantiate non-action.

 

What may be viewed or interpreted by many LP supporters as building momentum, in this forum, can only be seen as progress towards what will inevitably benefit us all. That is the collective recognition that a product, advertised and promoted to be a premiere audio workstation, has to be corrected, and moreover supported.

 

Some have cited specific examples of troubling intermittent problems that may be triggered by certain workflows. These are upfront and fair disclosures aimed at only ensuring the continued success of LP by necessitating FIXes not workarounds or whispering magical spells.

 

Some have cited specific examples in professional settings, under hire for work, which exposed LP's troubled feature set, which often put at risk these contracts and critical work relationships.

 

The fact that this even has to be presented in such a manner is ludicrous from the get go. If the product received the attention that it rightly requires, this entry would be saluting its abilities, not calling for its repair. But push must come to shove. All justified movements will meet resistance.

 

What does your LP license mean to you? IMHO, my license is a privilege; one that I own which entitles me to all the benefits that we all have come to respect as owners. My license means something to me. I paid for it and my registration number says so. What value is a license if the owner has no recall to the manufacturer who sold it, under the premise of an advertised professional categorization. Why did I spend and invest in ALL the related hardware i have, which exceeds thousands and thousands of invested capital? I did so to run my DAW. I could have chosen among several solutions. In fact, I left a stable and fertile DAW and chose LP instead. I placed my faith and $ in Apple, as I have done since the early 90s.

 

LP is the cornerstone of my compositional means. LP is central to my entire rig; my entire expression as an artist revolves around LP. The needs and alerts provided by LP's users forge the way towards a better functioning platform. This thread, in this forum, is not an act in vain.

 

If you think this is dramatic, then how serious are you about your own art? That's a relative question for each person to answer. I'm serious enough about my investment to speak up after years of silence, reading thread after thread of users frustrations. It's not all doom and gloom. That's a given. If LP didn't work at all, I wouldn't be defending it right now, I'd be burning it.

 

Step outside your comfort zone and assist this process by contributing to a growing list of malfunctions that in the end will hopefully hasten much needed FIXes not upgrades.

[Ashermusic]

Jay wrote:

 

the music software industry does not define an issue as a bug as that happens to only a small number of users.

 

What about the case where only a small number of users attempting to implement a little-used feature -- one which can be proven to be buggy across multiple systems and computer types -- doesn't work? Case in point:

 

Logic's ability to display picture position in Feet and Frames (f/f for short). Great, fantastic, you can do this in Logic! In fact, were it not for Logic's ability to display timecode thus I wouldn't have been able to work on (what ended up being) a very lucrative job for Warner Bros. last year.

 

But there's a problem. There's nice big fat juicy time-wasting BUG associated with f/f operations.

 

Now... how often do composers work in feet/frames as opposed to straight-up timecode? I don't really know the answer to that question, but so far that project was a unique circumstance for me. For sake of example, let's assume that it is indeed unusual to work in f/f. And then let's consider how many Logic-based composers there compared to the rest of Logic's user-base (which is likely much smaller than the number of, say, "causal" users). With these things in mind, does this bug no longer count as a bug because only a small number out of a minority of Logic's users find that a little-used feature doesn't work correctly?

 

My point is that the quantity of users who experience a problem has absolutely no bearing on whether or not an operational difficulty can be considered a bug.

 

Whether bugs get fixed (or not) often has nothing to do with the number of users experiencing it.

 

A bug can exist in everyone's system but is only exposed and experienced by a relatively small number of users because of the nature of the project and/or a particular workflow.

 

Truth be told, it often comes down to a purely administrative (or even marketing) decision as to whether the ol' gal gets shipped out to make public appearances before she's had time to put on all of her makeup.

 

I agree with everything you have written here.

 

That said, if I were a developer the I would fix bugs in this order:

 

1. Bugs that affect many users and are easy to fix.

2. Bugs that affect few users but are easy to fix.

3. Bugs that affect many users and are more difficult to fix.

4. Bugs that affect few users and are more difficult to fix.

 

Because the unvarnished truth is that the Logic developers, and the Cubase developers, and the DP developers, and the Sonar developers, and the PT developers, will NEVER fix ALL the bugs in these complicated software app even if they commit to doing solely that and never introduce new features.

[Ashermusic]

Also, these issues you site as examples are performance based issues. These are highly subjective issues that are based on background processes, ram usage, disc permissions, disc space, and the like. I as you can see by reading my list, I mostly have logical issues with the program... ya know, wrong things selecting, undo, comps, wrong file in editor, etc.

 

The very idea to having to resort to logic "wisperers" is funny to me. It's software, it's not supposed to have a mystical untamed side. It's just supposed to logically, predictably preform tasks, sans magic.

 

I will not accept the current status quo of LP.

 

Harping on this issue is not a matter of or expecting to be heard. The initiative here, at least for me, is to build a consensus and collective agreement on this subject, with the rest of this community. And I'm hoping this open dialogue will prompt more people to come forth with their own opinions on this matter.

 

Exactly...

 

The Logic "Whisperer" bit was a joke and you misspelled it. I am simply a guy who has thousands of hours with the program on my rigs and others and have simply become really good at troubleshooting.

 

@ David, you are a much smarter man than me. You answer these things 1 or 2 times and then you don't bother anymore. I will now follow your wise example.

[bmdaugherty]

What's a joke is you saying that you have contact with the developers. If you did have contact with the dev team, why can't you help us out with a release date, even a release quarter...

 

Are these claims supposed to comfort us? Because they really piss me off, knowing that someone who says they have the ability to commune with the logic gods is right here on this very forum yet will not disclose a SINGLE BIT of information. This is exactly the kind of thing that makes people resent apple, and it's making me resent you too. Whose side are you on? The idea that someone knows but just can't say only makes it worse because there is NO reason to be so tight lipped in this professional climate. We just need the facts.

 

Also, the lack of David's presence is sad because he is another person who is supposed to have developer contact. Just more ignoring from people who should be caring the most. Don't you guys understand that the Davids and Jays are all we have left to count on? You are the closest thing to direct contact we have and you are completely opposing every idea in this thread.

 

No wonder logic never gets fixed. Wake up. The battle is between the user base, and apple, not between you and me.

[Ashermusic]

What's a joke is you saying that you have contact with the developers. If you did have contact with the dev team, why can't you help us out with a release date, even a release quarter...

 

Are these claims supposed to comfort us? Because they really piss me off, knowing that someone who says they have the ability to commune with the logic gods is right here on this very forum yet will not disclose a SINGLE BIT of information. This is exactly the kind of thing that makes people resent apple, and it's making me resent you too. Whose side are you on? The idea that someone knows but just can't say only makes it worse because there is NO reason to be so tight lipped in this professional climate. We just need the facts.

 

Also, the lack of David's presence is sad because he is another person who is supposed to have developer contact. Just more ignoring from people who should be caring the most. Don't you guys understand that the Davids and Jays are all we have left to count on? You are the closest thing to direct contact we have and you are completely opposing every idea in this thread.

 

No wonder logic never gets fixed. Wake up. The battle is between the user base, and apple, not between you and me.

 

The fact that David and I can contact them and communicate with them does not mean they listen to us and do our bidding. We have no more influence over them than any other user.

 

And I am not in a battle with Apple or anyone else over Logic. I am by nature a pragmatic guy. I do not spend much time worrying about how things "should be." I roll up my sleeves and get to work using what resources I have. And for me, warts and all, that is Logic Pro 8.

 

And now, can I please be finished with this without you trying to engage me further?

[ski]

bmdaugherty, I Jay's defense I have to ask you... "you call THAT a rock?"

 

[Absorbalov]

 

The fact that David and I can contact them and communicate with them does not mean they listen to us and do our bidding. We have no more influence over them than any other user.

 

And I am not in a battle with Apple or anyone else over Logic. I am by nature a pragmatic guy. I do not spend much time worrying about how things "should be." I roll up my sleeves and get to work using what resources I have. And for me, warts and all, that is Logic Pro 8.

 

And now, can I please be finished with this without you trying to engage me further?

 

+1000000 please end this thread