Nektar Panorama CS12 - customised control of Logic Pro X

[TChandler]

Hello all,

Some of you probably saw the Panorama CS12 announced at NAMM 2023 back in April with a projected August release date.  Well we missed that unfortunately, we are now looking at late October.

We will be releasing more info in the build up to release via our Facebook page:

https://www.facebook.com/NektarTech/

For release, we are solely focused on Logic Pro X hence why I'm posting here.  

Nektar has always written DAW integration from the ground up rather than relying on existing protocols.  

This is why CS12 is a completely new take on DAW controllers with a focus on plugin control, organisation and easy access to any parameter across Logic's channel strip.  We also cover navigation, tempo, zoom, window management and common DAW functions (undo, click, loop navigation for example).

Here's some highlights:

-  CS12 handles any plugin 3rd party or Logic's internal format without plugin hosting software.   Color coding separates control sections within a plugin map and highlights key parameters.  

-  All of Logic's channel strip plugins and many 3rd party plugins pre-mapped and organised for intuitive navigation without menu-diving, or multi-page scrolling.  All plugins for which we don't have a Nektar map still present their parameters organised across the 12x RGB 360 pots and 4x RGB buttons.  It's a quick and simple job if you want to re-organize and color code anything. 

-  Plugins are colour-coded according to category which is what you see in the image above - the vertical line of buttons represents the channel strip, with sends and 'channel' dedicated buttons at the bottom.  The Channel button at the bottom links to Smart controls and 'user' pages for global assignments.  You can update/assign color of any plugin to identify it in the channel strip more easily.

-  High resolution via the magnifier (fine) button - 10x control resolution compared to MIDI's 7-bit limitation.  This applies to all controls not just the motor-fader.  

- 10x MIDI resolution even applies to the 'user' pages reserved for making custom assignments.  User pages rely on Logic's Learn mode but we made the process easier.  Any Logic parameter/shortcut is assigned by holding [SHIFT], clicking a control (or triggering a shortcut) and then turning a pot/pressing an RGB button.

- Motorised fader is assignable to last clicked 'selected ' automation parameter across Logic's channel strip and focused plugins.  This mode is activated by engaging the [Select] button next to the fader.  

Essentially, we are making things easier by mapping Logic's channel strip and plugins for you, but maintaining flexibility making it easy for you to override and customise things - all with high resolution control across the board.

Here is a link to a NAMM 2023 overview video which covered the plugin control and motor fader aspects primarily using a prototype:

 

Best,

Tim

[des99]

It looks really good, and it's nice to see a dev *finally* come up with solutions to control plugins in a meaningful way (most MCU-style controllers that aren't complete MCU clones just skip the plugin parameter control completely).

I'm pretty opinionated on controllers 🙂, and how bad many of them are (or how their design approach is not tackling my needs). This one doesn't match my needs (I've found 4 rows of 8 controls - ie the Mackie C4 layout) is most optimal for my needs, as you can usefully control synths, channel strips, EQ's etc - anything less than that is less comfortable and a bit of a compromise. But I really like the product and your design approach and choices (I think they are the right choices), and I hope it does well for you - it should be a *massive* improvement for most Logic users who struggle with control plugins from any MIDI controller.

Anyone who's struggling with plugin control should take a look at this controller, imo. 👍

Edited September 11, 2023 by des99

[velanche]

I stumbled on this device while doing a Google search. I have not even heard of this product until today. I've used the P4 keyboard way back; its integration with Logic stock plugin was ridiculous. I've since passed on the keyboard to a friend and using other keyboard. But the lure of having a controller with mappings to Logic stock plugins out of the box is very enticing to me. I can leave my keyboard for controlling third-party plugins, but the CS12 would be part of my desktop setup definitely. Seems that it's missed its August launch date, so here's hoping that the date is close at hand. Also, hey @TChandler!

[TChandler]

Hey Velanche!

Been a while 🙂

Sure all stock plug-ins are pre-mapped.  As we approach launch I'll release some videos showing the mapping for some of the more complex but creative plugins in Logic (Delay Designer, Space Designer, for example).  CS12 really brings these plugins to life.

Inserts only for release, as the focus is the channel strip.  There is scope to add full instrument mapping down the line.

However, it's not just stock Logic plugins that are pre-mapped as we've now added full support for our 3rd party plugin mapping that has been enhanced and fine tuned in Nektarine over the years - but without the need for Nektarine as a host plugin anymore.

Nektarine has now gone 'off-track' if you like.

[velanche]

Sounds like a good start, @TChandler. I got my itchy hands waiting to try it out. Thanks for the info!

[prodbyogchiboi]

Hello again @TChandler

Not sure if you’ll remember me from YouTube but also I had my friend FaceTime me so I could ask you questions during NAMM23 haha. I was wondering if the knobs were touch sensitive? Also when can we expect more videos going over some more in-depth features?

 

I did read on Facebook that you guys plan to implement a way to insert the plugins straight from the CS12? Is that correct?

Thank you again for all the updates.

[TChandler]

On 10/14/2023 at 9:18 AM, prodbyogchiboi said:

Hello again @TChandler

Not sure if you’ll remember me from YouTube but also I had my friend FaceTime me so I could ask you questions during NAMM23 haha. I was wondering if the knobs were touch sensitive? Also when can we expect more videos going over some more in-depth features?

I did read on Facebook that you guys plan to implement a way to insert the plugins straight from the CS12? Is that correct?

Thank you again for all the updates.

Hey there!  

The motor fader is touch sensitive, but not the rotaries.  Plugin instantiation is possible through the Logic API but it's cumbersome, so whilst we will look at adding this it won't be there in initial release...  I want to do something more intelligent than scrolling through loads of plugins and instead allow tagging plugins as favourites so you can scroll through a subset.  I do agree plugin instantiation is super useful though.

Some videos should be released over the next few weeks hopefully, we are a small team!

[prodbyogchiboi]

On 10/16/2023 at 1:16 PM, TChandler said:

Hey there!  

The motor fader is touch sensitive, but not the rotaries.  Plugin instantiation is possible through the Logic API but it's cumbersome, so whilst we will look at adding this it won't be there in initial release...  I want to do something more intelligent than scrolling through loads of plugins and instead allow tagging plugins as favourites so you can scroll through a subset.  I do agree plugin instantiation is super useful though.

Some videos should be released over the next few weeks hopefully, we are a small team!

Thank you for your response. I agree, a favorites list would be much more convenient. 

Haha no problem! We will be waiting patiently.

[ivanologico]

On 10/16/2023 at 7:16 PM, TChandler said:

 

Hey there!  

 

The motor fader is touch sensitive, but not the rotaries.  Plugin instantiation is possible through the Logic API but it's cumbersome, so whilst we will look at adding this it won't be there in initial release...  I want to do something more intelligent than scrolling through loads of plugins and instead allow tagging plugins as favourites so you can scroll through a subset.  I do agree plugin instantiation is super useful though.

 

Some videos should be released over the next few weeks hopefully, we are a small team!

 

 

please take some time to show how alchemy gonna be mapped, is a kind of dream to have an easy interaction with such a monster knob plugin

[TChandler]

On 1/6/2024 at 11:51 AM, ivanologico said:

please take some time to show how alchemy gonna be mapped, is a kind of dream to have an easy interaction with such a monster knob plugin

So many Instruments like Alchemy have hundreds of parameters and so any pre-mapped support on the CS12 would require pages and pages of parameters to navigate - leading to lots of menu-diving which is something we want to avoid.   Instead for Instrument control, we went for an approach that makes it easy to customise the parameter arrangement and quickly access any parameter on the instrument.

I'll be sure to include this in video content, but here is a text description:

For instrument control the CS12 provides a unique architecture on the CHANNEL page.  The CHANNEL page, first provides Logic's Smart Controls auto-mapped with feedback.  

There are a further 2 user-assignable pages directly accessed using the buttons under the display, which allow on-the-fly assignment of any parameter on the instrument as and when you need it.  Here is the process:

- Hold SHIFT on CS12,

- Click a parameter on the instrument

-  Turn a control on CS12 to map and control it instantly

These mappings are stored to the controls and they are mapped against the instrument in Logic's preferences - so return whenever the instrument is on the selected track in Logic moving forward.  You could choose to use User page 1 for you 'go to params for example, keeping them there always, and use page 2 for on-the-fly assignments.

Even though these assignments are user-defined, you still get full feedback (name and value) plus high-resolution (>10-bit) control of any instrument parameter is maintained.  I believe this is the first time this has been achieved on any controller.

When the SELECT button next to the motor fader is active, the motor fader and the Pan pot target whichever is the last clicked parameter.  So combined with the Channel page you'll find yourself with quick-access to any parameter on Alchemy... and no menu diving.

[ivanologico]

looks amazing

[TChandler]

Hello all.  Just to say the Panorama CS12 is finally shipping!  Currently on the water. Should be available in the US by the end of this month.  For Europe it's less predictable unfortunately.

I'm at NAMM this week, so keep an eye out for official announcements and video demonstrations of the finished product.

[redgreenblue]

Very interested in this. I'm a master of Logic control and *very* picky about my control surfaces. I want to be impressed by this. 

[guavadude]

I just pulled the trigger on the Icon Nano but if the CS12 ships soon I'll grab one to do a shootout. I'd still love to see just a fader and a few buttons in a mini version.

The fader is usually all I ever need but it could be that the controllers are just such a pain to get dialed in for the VIs. Maybe there's a better way. I'm open to trying it and this looks like a great product!

[prodbyogchiboi]

On 1/24/2024 at 2:50 PM, TChandler said:

Hello all.  Just to say the Panorama CS12 is finally shipping!  Currently on the water.  Should be available in the US by the end of this month.  For Europe it's less predictable unfortunately.

I'm at NAMM this week, so keep an eye out for official announcements and video demonstrations of the finished product.

Hello @TChandler

Great to hear, will be looking out on Youtube for demonstrations. Couldn't find it on Sweetwater, do you have a direct link?

[prodbyogchiboi]

Hold on... @TChandler you meant on the water as in.. on a ship.. on its way to the US. Oh my goodness I feel so stupid 😂. 

[velanche]

Yeah...on the way, baby!

I'm ready for Nectar to take my money!

I missed my chance to atoned NAMM this year, damnit. I'm not that far, but far enough that I need to plan that out. Anyway, shouts to @TChandlerand the time. I am crossing my fingers for Pro Tools DAW integration, but Logic integration out of the box....all about that.

From Nick @ Sonic State - Tim doing a demo!:

[des99]

The price is definitely good - do you have a user manual online yet?

I'm interested in the mechanics you are using to control Logic - you say it's not the MCU protocol but "controls Logic directly" - did you write your own control surface module for this integration? Or hook into the same system that Logic Remote uses? I don't think the LUA stuff goes that deep, so it's likely not that.

I'm implemented many of these extension features (like toggle bypass of all plugins on a channel etc), and also plugin instanciation, but no one's doing it like I'm doing it! 😉

You say many plugins are "pre-mapped", including all of Logic's. You can't pre-map all third-party plugins that exist, so how can the user map plugin parameters? Do they respond to parameter ordering via CSParameterOrder files, or is there some other mechanic you're using?

If you can hook us up with a manual, that's be cool to get a better understanding on what this thing can do... 👍

Congrats on the release, it looks pretty cool!

[TChandler]

6 hours ago, des99 said:

The price is definitely good - do you have a user manual online yet?

I'm interested in the mechanics you are using to control Logic - you say it's not the MCU protocol but "controls Logic directly" - did you write your own control surface module for this integration? Or hook into the same system that Logic Remote uses? I don't think the LUA stuff goes that deep, so it's likely not that.

I'm implemented many of these extension features (like toggle bypass of all plugins on a channel etc), and also plugin instanciation, but no one's doing it like I'm doing it! 😉

You say many plugins are "pre-mapped", including all of Logic's. You can't pre-map all third-party plugins that exist, so how can the user map plugin parameters? Do they respond to parameter ordering via CSParameterOrder files, or is there some other mechanic you're using?

If you can hook us up with a manual, that's be cool to get a better understanding on what this thing can do... 👍

Congrats on the release, it looks pretty cool!

Such an excellent and detailed analysis with some great questions.

"I'm interested in the mechanics you are using to control Logic - you say it's not the MCU protocol but "controls Logic directly""

I wrote the integration using the LUA scripts.  The plugin mapping is a separate system we have developed over the past 10 years.  It's basically Nektarine "off track" - that is all the plugin map technology in Nektarine but with no wrappers or plugin hosts.  When a plugin is identified in Logic the integration tells CS12 which plugin is required and ControlCore app tells the device what colors, params, text strings and user mappings are required. Sounds simple, but there's 10 years of tech to ensure this is as seamless and transparent as possible.

"I'm implemented many of these extension features (like toggle bypass of all plugins on a channel etc), and also plugin instanciation, but no one's doing it like I'm doing it!"

YES!!!  Keep doing what you do.  Happy to help with any innovations in this area.

"You say many plugins are "pre-mapped", including all of Logic's. You can't pre-map all third-party plugins that exist, so how can the user map plugin parameters? Do they respond to parameter ordering via CSParameterOrder files, or is there some other mechanic you're using?"

We've taken great lengths to ensure the plists do not affect our perception of the plugin and param list at the other end so that ControlCore can do its thing.  You can remap any plugin with text labels, page hierarchy using Nektarine as a graphical editor.  The Nektarine maps are shared with ControlCore meaning they will appear in Logic.

No user guides just yet but happy to assist with any further questions.  I'm hoping the product is available Feb but "on the water" is still the current status.

[TChandler]

On 1/25/2024 at 7:08 AM, guavadude said:

The fader is usually all I ever need but it could be that the controllers are just such a pain to get dialed in for the VIs. Maybe there's a better way. I'm open to trying it and this looks like a great product!

On CS12, When you engage [SELECT] the motor fader maps to the selected automation param and does lots of other stuff to ensure that when you click a parameter in the active plugin with the mouse the motor fader has control of th

[des99]

3 hours ago, TChandler said:

I wrote the integration using the LUA scripts.

That's pretty cool to know that it can go deeper than I thought, from examining some existing scripts for various devices. I know you can create some limited sets of controller assignments via LUA scripts (which was what I was most interested in at the time), but I've since discovered a better way of being able to remotely add/edit controller assignments, as I've reverse engineered the bulk of the CS prefs file, which has already come in handy, and will specifically for another controller product I'm working on.

There are no docs for the LUA stuff, so all I've gleaned so far (on a cursory look, to be fair) is from nosing at existing scripts - it's possible that you have access to proper API docs from Apple, and have a better idea of the possibilities with the newer LUA stuff (I haven't really seen it explored or documented in depth yet, and I don't fancy doing that particular project unless I had a need for it! 😉)

3 hours ago, TChandler said:

It's basically Nektarine "off track" - that is all the plugin map technology in Nektarine but with no wrappers or plugin hosts.  When a plugin is identified in Logic the integration tells CS12 which plugin is required and ControlCore app tells the device what colors, params, text strings and user mappings are required.

Ok, so Nektarine is a wrapper as I understand it, so you can easily (relatively, I mean!) get the loaded plugin and access to the plugin parameters. Without a wrapper though, what's doing the plugin "identifying"? Some active component is doing this (the "integration"), and I don't really have any concept as to what eg "Control Core" is, not being the developer - is this also through the LUA stuff? If so, that's pretty cool... 👍 Or is this a separate running server-type app on the DAW machine? Does it require a plugin's GUI to be onscreen before being able to control it?

(Sorry for the somewhat nerdy questions, I'm just interested in how you've solved some of the problems, as I'm quite familiar with the Logic controller space. And I get if you are intentionally vague about some of this stuff for IP protection reasons - that's fair enough.)

It wasn't quite clear to me from the NAMM demos exactly what's going on or how it works (hence the questions), but I did appreciate some of the thought and care you've done that's gone into tackling and solving some common gotchas with working with controllers, eg like leaving automation modes on and accidentally writing unwanted automation, control accuracy and other things - very cool. As you I'm sure well know, most existing controllers haven't really thought about the problem space and devised these kinds of improvements since the original Logic Control was implemented, they usually just blindly implement some core functionality - often without plugin control at all - and call it a day.

Anyway - just wanted to say I see and appreciate the effort you've gone into on this, and why it's different from most other somewhat-similar controllers - I'm always watching the controller space, because no-one's yet made the controller *I* want, so I had to resort to implementing my own solutions here.

I hope this does well for you, and once it comes out and I get a better idea of how it works, I may well be recommending it for Logic users who are struggling with generic MIDI controllers to figure out how to edit plugins in Logic, which beyond the simplest manual mapping, is not that easy or straightforward in Logic, and we see people here struggling with this all the time - or simply not bothering to try...

Hope you have a great NAMM! 👍

[enossified]

des99,

When I read “wrapper” I think of Novation’s Automap where a second “wrapped” version of a given plugin is instantiated. Nektarine is more like NI’s Komplete Kontrol, it is itself a plugin which loads other third party plugins (it is not used for Logic’s own plugins). 

When creating a new software track, load Nektarine as the instrument then use Nektarine's browser to choose the actual sound which loads the appropriate plugin(s) into Nektarine. When saving the track as a channel strip or patch, the current state of Nektarine with the loaded plugin(s) is saved. 

Many popular third party plugins are already fully mapped in Nektarine with the factory patch lists. The user can add unsupported plugins and load non-factory (third party libraries or user created libraries) patch lists as well. The browser allows searching through all patch lists by categories, much like using Logic’s library sidebar. The actual mapping of parameters to physical controls may be edited by the user to taste using a simple graphic interface built into the plugin, similar to the way Smart Controls are mapped but allowing multiple pages of controls.

TChandler,

I have a P6 already so I’m not sure I need a CS12, but I do have a question. Can the CS12 be used alongside Panorama P or T series controllers without one or the other getting out of whack?

P.S. thanks for coming here to post. I really appreciate the high level of Nektar’s customer support.

Edited January 27 by enossified

[des99]

10 minutes ago, enossified said:

Nektarine is more like NI’s Komplete Kontrol, it is itself a plugin which loads other third party plugins (it is not used for Logic’s own plugins). 

Yes, that is the concept of wrapper I'm using - instead of loading the plugin in the DAW, you load some other software, and then load the plugin inside that (like Komplete Kontrol) - hence the plugin is "wrapped" inside other software, to add additional functionality.

It's a non-starter for me (I dislike KK for this and other reasons). Automap was a (hacky) way of trying to "invisibly" wrap plugins and I'm glad it's gone... 🙂

As far as I understand what Tim has said, and the NAMM demos, the CS12 is not using Nektarine, the plugins aren't "wrapped" but are opened directly in Logic as normal.

[TChandler]

No wrappers here.  

 

Everything is handled with Apple's API directly.  ControlCore is our own proprietary app that extends the capabilities of the Apple API and transparently manages plugin mapping capabilities.

 

When I said "Nektarine off-track" I mean all the plugin map technology that previously required Nektarine to be present in the DAW is now handled by ControlCore outside the DAW environment.

 

CS12 does support Nektarine and this means Nektarine serves as a graphical editor for deeper mapping and page management.  Maps made in Nektarine are read by ControlCore and vice versa.  But you don't need to run it on every track as a plugin host.  You don't even need it in your projects at all.

 

2 hours ago, enossified said:

I have a P6 already so I’m not sure I need a CS12, but I do have a question. Can the CS12 be used alongside Panorama P or T series controllers without one or the other getting out of whack?

 

 

Yes, should all be fine the P6 plugin handling is entirely separate as stored in Logic's settings.

 

 

[Sonas]

It sounds very convincing!  How does the plugin insert function work? It wasn‘t mentioned in the demo. Is it something like Logic‘s plugin folder management where you can jump between different folders (exp. „Dynamics“, „EQ“) and where you can then select your desired plugin? As it was mentioned in the demo all plugins are color coded and so are plugin types.
Maybe the encoders could be used for fast scrolling through the folder paths as for example. A
a quick search engine as NI provides on their Keyboards (plugin brand/ plugin name/ plugin type) could also be an option.

It would be nice to select plugins directly from CS12 via the 8 CS buttons. A controller like this is highly required for Logic Pro as there are none of such devices available. 

- Sonas

Edited January 27 by Sonas

[des99]

17 minutes ago, Sonas said:

How does the plugin insert function work? It wasn‘t mentioned in the demo.

He did mention this in the demo I watched - it's not currently supported via the CS12.

[Sonas]

Ok, seems I didn‘t hear it. Hopefully it is planned for upcoming updates. 

Edited January 27 by Sonas

[TChandler]

22 hours ago, Sonas said:

Ok, seems I didn‘t hear it. Hopefully it is planned for upcoming updates. 

Yes, I know how to handle plugin selection but using the API method currently is clunky as you have to scroll through every plugin.  It's easier to use the mouse.

 

Looking to implement a tagging system for controlCore where you can tag you favourite plugins making a more compressed list which would be much better.

[StudioQ1]

Take my money this looks 🔥 

[enossified]

Tim,

So is ControlCore an app running outside of the CS12? Or is it integrated inside the CS12 firmware?

If it’s a separate app, any chances of a firmware update to the P series to use it?